Liverpool FC Forum

Its a bit curious how every single game so far this season has turned out. Good possession and pressure from higher up in the first half. On the back foot and unable to get a hold of the ball in the second.
I've seen every sort of excuse being put out there to try and explain the drop in performances in the second half; you even had/have some suggesting the manager does it intentionally to close down spaces behind our defenders.

For me, whether intentional or not (and I'm positive its not), its a recipe for disaster. We should have lost to Swansea, a point flatters us a bit on the night but I'm okay with that. More important than the result against Swansea, and the previous 3 results as well, is us finding a solution to this drop in performance in the second half of games.

Heres my theory, in every game so far this season, we've gone into half time with a lead. We come out in the second half with the same lineup, the same instructions, and the same player positioning, but the entire outlook of the side is different. For me, its all about what the opposition do differently in the second half. What every side has done is push their back lines further up the pitch and invite our players to go behind them especially down the flanks. They start pressing us from higher up the pitch and our midfielders/defenders can no longer execute their planA (possession and slow buildup of play) given the lack of outlets further up the pitch.

For all the good work that Sturridge has done with us, he still lacks that dominance, intelligence, and presence upfront to get a hold of the ball and shield it or wait for others to join in. To be fair to him though, the service -more often than not- is lacking. His link-up play when we have possession higher up has surprised and impressed me, but when we struggle for possession and the side as a whole sits that little bit deeper, you look for your forward to hold up the ball when he gets the chance. Moses, Aspas, and Henderson as the 3 attacking midfielder are all lacking in skills, vision, and more importantly quality. Essentialy, Coutinho (who hasnt had the best start for the season) and Gerrard (long passes mainly) are the only players capable of creating good opportunities for Sturridge when the side is under pressure. Henderson's role in the side is limited to tracking back the fullback and Aspas just wanders around losing possession whenever he's afforded the chance to. Moses has a bit of directness and pace to him that is yet to be utilized so at least that's something to be considered when such a situation arises.

The big positive for me is the imminent return of Suarez. He adds a different dimension to the side and I dont think for one second that we'll be as toothless going forward in the second half with him in the side. Sides will realize the danger posed by the presence of Suarez + Coutinho + Sturridge on the counter and they're more likely to offer our attacking force a bit more respect and consideration even when their side is trailing. Having Moses as an option from the bench, if he doesnt start ahead of Henderson which is something I'd seriously consider if I was Rodgers is also likely to add some experience and quality (relatively speaking) to what has to be one of the poorest benches we've had in a while.

I posted pretty much the same thing in BR's thread. Something certainly lacks, but perhaps it's a number of things. Maybe it's become a bad habit now.

I have wondered on Brendan's ability to think progressively in a match situation. You could be right in saying we have no plan B. A lot of changes seem to be adjustments and modifications of one philosophy. I still maintain we should have hung onto Carroll, or at least brought someone in that we can send on into games like yesterday's.

The bench is poor. No question. If I was on the pitch, under pressure from a physical side, Andy walking on would toughen me up. Aspas walking on would make me groan. I blame arrogance on Rodgers part, and hopefully he will address the issue in January.

I've been critical of Lucas recently, and I think he emphasised why against the Swans. When the heat is on, he has little physical presence, he gets caught out of position again and again, but mostly he fails to get a foot on the ball and calm things down. He needs competition for his spot.

Henderson is a squad player for me. There are times a player of his qualities are needed, but a first teamer each game?

Overall, I think the lack of squad depth, and ultimately the reason for that, is our problem.

I don't think it's a matter of plan B, I think it's down to the quality of players we have on the bench (like you said at the end). I don't think any of Aspas, Allen, Sterling and Alberto would have changed much yesterday, especially having Coutinho, who kept our attack going, getting off with an injury. I disagree with you about Sturridge Ace, I think he is good at holding up the ball, and against Man Utd I thought he did fantastically well in that particular situation, however, I do agree that he does lack a bit of imagination. I really can't wait for Suarez to come back, I've been reading loads of ***** from so called ''experts'' stating that without him we have been winning games, oh bloody hell, with him we have been winning games too and he scored 22 goals in the league last season!

We definitely need a ''Makelele'' type of midfielder

We definately don't

Type isn't particularly important to be honest. Its quality first.

You fill two or three gaps with "type of player" to give you balance.

aCe' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:31 pm wrote:Its a bit curious how every single game so far this season has turned out. Good possession and pressure from higher up in the first half. On the back foot and unable to get a hold of the ball in the second.
I've seen every sort of excuse being put out there to try and explain the drop in performances in the second half; you even had/have some suggesting the manager does it intentionally to close down spaces behind our defenders.

For me, whether intentional or not (and I'm positive its not), its a recipe for disaster. We should have lost to Swansea, a point flatters us a bit on the night but I'm okay with that. More important than the result against Swansea, and the previous 3 results as well, is us finding a solution to this drop in performance in the second half of games.

Heres my theory, in every game so far this season, we've gone into half time with a lead. We come out in the second half with the same lineup, the same instructions, and the same player positioning, but the entire outlook of the side is different. For me, its all about what the opposition do differently in the second half. What every side has done is push their back lines further up the pitch and invite our players to go behind them especially down the flanks. They start pressing us from higher up the pitch and our midfielders/defenders can no longer execute their planA (possession and slow buildup of play) given the lack of outlets further up the pitch.

For all the good work that Sturridge has done with us, he still lacks that dominance, intelligence, and presence upfront to get a hold of the ball and shield it or wait for others to join in. To be fair to him though, the service -more often than not- is lacking. His link-up play when we have possession higher up has surprised and impressed me, but when we struggle for possession and the side as a whole sits that little bit deeper, you look for your forward to hold up the ball when he gets the chance. Moses, Aspas, and Henderson as the 3 attacking midfielder are all lacking in skills, vision, and more importantly quality. Essentialy, Coutinho (who hasnt had the best start for the season) and Gerrard (long passes mainly) are the only players capable of creating good opportunities for Sturridge when the side is under pressure. Henderson's role in the side is limited to tracking back the fullback and Aspas just wanders around losing possession whenever he's afforded the chance to. Moses has a bit of directness and pace to him that is yet to be utilized so at least that's something to be considered when such a situation arises.

The big positive for me is the imminent return of Suarez. He adds a different dimension to the side and I dont think for one second that we'll be as toothless going forward in the second half with him in the side. Sides will realize the danger posed by the presence of Suarez + Coutinho + Sturridge on the counter and they're more likely to offer our attacking force a bit more respect and consideration even when their side is trailing. Having Moses as an option from the bench, if he doesnt start ahead of Henderson which is something I'd seriously consider if I was Rodgers is also likely to add some experience and quality (relatively speaking) to what has to be one of the poorest benches we've had in a while.

The only thing I can add to that is for me Sturridge doesn't work hard enough. You look at the great strikers we had over the years, even Suarez and they won't stand around complaining. They'll make runs into channel's ask for long balls to give us an outlet. Sturridge doesn't do this enough for me.

But Sturridge scores 5 games in row though Stu.   He doesn't do enough!?

Someone said, and I think it's a good point... we've played badly, but haven't lost. That's the only positive.
Against Villa and Swansea, they are the home team, so entitled to have posession and pressure 2nd half.

The main Worry, is that we can't keep posession of the ball.If we keep hold of the ball, the opposition can't hurt us.
Its not rocket science is it.

Hustler 2 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:26 pm wrote:But Sturridge scores 5 games in row though Stu.   He doesn't do enough!?

Someone said, and I think it's a good point... we've played badly, but haven't lost. That's the only positive.
Against Villa and Swansea, they are the home team, so entitled to have posession and pressure 2nd half.

The main Worry, is that we can't keep posession of the ball.If we keep hold of the ball, the opposition can't hurt us.
Its not rocket science is it.

DUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

StuYesThatStu » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:18 pm wrote:

aCe' » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:31 pm wrote:Its a bit curious how every single game so far this season has turned out. Good possession and pressure from higher up in the first half. On the back foot and unable to get a hold of the ball in the second.
I've seen every sort of excuse being put out there to try and explain the drop in performances in the second half; you even had/have some suggesting the manager does it intentionally to close down spaces behind our defenders.

For me, whether intentional or not (and I'm positive its not), its a recipe for disaster. We should have lost to Swansea, a point flatters us a bit on the night but I'm okay with that. More important than the result against Swansea, and the previous 3 results as well, is us finding a solution to this drop in performance in the second half of games.

Heres my theory, in every game so far this season, we've gone into half time with a lead. We come out in the second half with the same lineup, the same instructions, and the same player positioning, but the entire outlook of the side is different. For me, its all about what the opposition do differently in the second half. What every side has done is push their back lines further up the pitch and invite our players to go behind them especially down the flanks. They start pressing us from higher up the pitch and our midfielders/defenders can no longer execute their planA (possession and slow buildup of play) given the lack of outlets further up the pitch.

For all the good work that Sturridge has done with us, he still lacks that dominance, intelligence, and presence upfront to get a hold of the ball and shield it or wait for others to join in. To be fair to him though, the service -more often than not- is lacking. His link-up play when we have possession higher up has surprised and impressed me, but when we struggle for possession and the side as a whole sits that little bit deeper, you look for your forward to hold up the ball when he gets the chance. Moses, Aspas, and Henderson as the 3 attacking midfielder are all lacking in skills, vision, and more importantly quality. Essentialy, Coutinho (who hasnt had the best start for the season) and Gerrard (long passes mainly) are the only players capable of creating good opportunities for Sturridge when the side is under pressure. Henderson's role in the side is limited to tracking back the fullback and Aspas just wanders around losing possession whenever he's afforded the chance to. Moses has a bit of directness and pace to him that is yet to be utilized so at least that's something to be considered when such a situation arises.

The big positive for me is the imminent return of Suarez. He adds a different dimension to the side and I dont think for one second that we'll be as toothless going forward in the second half with him in the side. Sides will realize the danger posed by the presence of Suarez + Coutinho + Sturridge on the counter and they're more likely to offer our attacking force a bit more respect and consideration even when their side is trailing. Having Moses as an option from the bench, if he doesnt start ahead of Henderson which is something I'd seriously consider if I was Rodgers is also likely to add some experience and quality (relatively speaking) to what has to be one of the poorest benches we've had in a while.

The only thing I can add to that is for me Sturridge doesn't work hard enough. You look at the great strikers we had over the years, even Suarez and they won't stand around complaining. They'll make runs into channel's ask for long balls to give us an outlet. Sturridge doesn't do this enough for me.

i think sturridge's work rate is good enough when we are on the attack. his movement is clever enough as he has shown numerous times and last night he showed a real instinct to anticipate shelveys back pass. he brings a lot to the table for me.
when we dont have the ball though, he is a lazy fooker.    wouldnt bust a gut for a ball that was against the odd's which is fine because he produces the goals and consistently, so we can afford to carry him.  any team thats playing well can carry a player.
our problem is that we are carrying too many and thats why we are struggling to see out games on top.
suarez will make a difference for us even if he isnt scoring goals because he will chase and press the ball in the final 3rd. even though moses had a good half last night and scored i thought he was also lazy in tracking and had a touch of downing about him in the tackle.

Disagree entirely with the OP.

4 games on the bounce now we have come out the other side of half time and sat back - this isn't coincidence and it isn't because the likes of Stoke, Swansea, or Villa can pin us back for 45 minutes unless we let them; if they could do it so easily they'd do it in the first half too. We're too good a side to allow these kind of teams to dominate us for that long. Rodgers even said the tactic was deliberate at Villa and I think that because he has found what he thought was some sort of formula to see out games he'd carry on using it because it's served us so well this far. I think he'd like us to counter attack better in these second halves to compliment the tactic hence the reason why I think he threw Sterling on with fifteen minutes to go at Swansea.

I think the lack of mobility and perhaps as some others have said stamina from midfield has made it easier just to sit, rather than using the whole pitch to run and impose ourselves, and press in other areas up front - a concern really and the midfield is the catalyst of our issues at the moment.

Also disagree entirely about Sturridge not being able to hold the ball up, he's actually very good at this and very good at drawing fouls in with his back to goal. Remember, the lad isn't fully fit yet and he's starving off any proper support from a midfield who are content to stand on the toe's of the CB's.

I really don't think Rodgers is being given any credit here at all, he's become more pragmatic and is adapting the side constantly to find the right balance, he's done it as soon as he got here when he dropped the tikka takka. I actually think it's good management and now, after what happened at Swansea I think he will again reassess or tinker with this tactic in the second half, or at least I hope so. I think we could 'shut up shop' but only if we've got a 2 goal lead so if we're only 1-0 up at half time, instead of sitting back and giving the opposition territorial advantage right from the off in the second half, I'd like us to get the second goal then drop off once we've got that 2 goal cushion. I could see that working, whether the midfield have the stamina and legs to do this though is another matter and another reason I believe why Rodgers has compensated for this when using the 'sit back' tactic.

Kenny Kan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:32 am wrote:Disagree entirely with the OP.

4 games on the bounce now we have come out the other side of half time and sat back - this isn't coincidence and it isn't because the likes of Stoke, Swansea, or Villa can pin us back for 45 minutes unless we let them; if they could do it so easily they'd do it in the first half too. We're too good a side to allow these kind of teams to dominate us for that long. Rodgers even said the tactic was deliberate at Villa and I think that because he has found what he thought was some sort of formula to see out games he'd carry on using it because it's served us so well this far. I think he'd like us to counter attack better in these second halves to compliment the tactic hence the reason why I think he threw Sterling on with fifteen minutes to go at Swansea.

I think the lack of mobility and perhaps as some others have said stamina from midfield has made it easier just to sit, rather than using the whole pitch to run and impose ourselves, and press in other areas up front - a concern really and the midfield is the catalyst of our issues at the moment.

Also disagree entirely about Sturridge not being able to hold the ball up, he's actually very good at this and very good at drawing fouls in with his back to goal. Remember, the lad isn't fully fit yet and he's starving off any proper support from a midfield who are content to stand on the toe's of the CB's.

I really don't think Rodgers is being given any credit here at all, he's become more pragmatic and is adapting the side constantly to find the right balance, he's done it as soon as he got here when he dropped the tikka takka. I actually think it's good management and now, after what happened at Swansea I think he will again reassess or tinker with this tactic in the second half, or at least I hope so. I think we could 'shut up shop' but only if we've got a 2 goal lead so if we're only 1-0 up at half time, instead of sitting back and giving the opposition territorial advantage right from the off in the second half, I'd like us to get the second goal then drop off once we've got that 2 goal cushion. I could see that working, whether the midfield have the stamina and legs to do this though is another matter and another reason I believe why Rodgers has compensated for this when using the 'sit back' tactic.

I agree 100%. It is definitely a strategic move from Rodgers, but I also hope he tinkers with it - statistically speaking though, the tactic has worked well so far. Additionally, I think that if we had Toure instead of Sakho at CB that night, we would've won 2-1 in the end and Rodgers' tactics would have worked again. What bothered me more though, was that we couldn't take back the control of the game AFTER they leveled at 2-2. IMO we should've stopped long balling at that point. The idea of playing long balls in the second half is that, if you're sitting on a lead, and have some pace in your ranks, then you can counter attack well with some incisive long passes, that Gerrard can provide. In addition, losing the ball in the other side of the pitch, is defensively far more comfortable to deal with, than losing it in your own half. While it's not the prettiest thing to watch - I think it's good pragmatism on the part of Rodgers and it will win us more games than draw them.

You guys may be right, but I'm not convinced. It's always backs to the wall, edge of the seat pressure. It's not pretty for us fans. I'm not sure it'd be good for Brendan's ol' ticker though. At the moment we're puffing and panting our way over the finish line.

The reason I find BR to be arrogant is that his approach dosen't take the opposition into account. It's almost like saying 'if we get this tactic right, all will fall under our attacking, passing game, so we don't need to counter the opposition".

Sorry, but to have no physical option to our midfield and attack is short sighted and will bite us in the a+se more than once this season.

I agree with KKs post However I think it only works when you are trying to build your lead up in appose to trying to get the lead like at Swansea

I personally think the personell is the problem.

When Coutinho went off we looked very ordinary couldnt create anything. Hopefully Coutinho doesnt miss much and with Suarez returning it will give us options coming off the bench.

Someone mentioned it in the past cant think who but about resting Gerrard for away games. I agree totally.

With Gerrard in the side although he is still a fantastic player he becomes a liability at times. Henderson is far better suited to a game against swansea away.


with a midfield 3 at home looking like                    and away

        Lucas        Gerrard                                 Lucas         Henderson

                 Coutinho                                               Coutinho

Henderson will give the energy to chase for 90 minutes and what an option to have  coming of the bench in Gerrard.

With Suarez coming back and his ability to create something from nothing im sure we will perform better in second halves

LFC1990 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:10 am wrote:I agree with KKs post However I think it only works when you are trying to build your lead up in appose to trying to get the lead like at Swansea

I personally think the personell is the problem.

When Coutinho went off we looked very ordinary couldnt create anything. Hopefully Coutinho doesnt miss much and with Suarez returning it will give us options coming off the bench.

Someone mentioned it in the past cant think who but about resting Gerrard for away games. I agree totally.

With Gerrard in the side although he is still a fantastic player he becomes a liability at times. Henderson is far better suited to a game against swansea away.


with a midfield 3 at home looking like                    and away

        Lucas        Gerrard                                 Lucas         Henderson

                 Coutinho                                               Coutinho

Henderson will give the energy to chase for 90 minutes and what an option to have  coming of the bench in Gerrard.

With Suarez coming back and his ability to create something from nothing im sure we will perform better in second halves

good shout..

If this is indeed a tactic, then its not one I particularly enjoy. With each passing minute we go further and further back and resort to hoofing it, which results in it coming straight back, and with interest.
In training they should work on the likes of Aspas, Sterling, Ibe and Henderson being able to hold the ball up in the oppositons half. They dont seem to understand the pressure the midfield and then the defence is under, and end up increasing that pressure through their weak and careless play.
If I am to be criticital, its not that we dont have the players to do this, its that they dont seem to know how to do it and play on as if nothing is happening.
Show them the DVD and point it out