Liverpool FC Forum

Good observations, Hustler, but the hope is that BRcan make a collective group that ticks all those boxes as one unit.

Did you know that to a group of ants, each becomes one cell in the greater mass? By becoming one being rather than lots of little ones, it's powers change drastically. It's not afraid, or weak. It's deadly, unstoppable. There's an interesting mechanic at work there.

It will take a LOT of hardworking since there's little room for trial and error, nor money to burn. But if BR is astute enough, we might see a new style of management to counter the money mad stylings of Citeh and the like.

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am wrote:
Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

All of that is rubbish...

But no vision? Seriously?

So on the last few days we've had "Lucas is better than Gerrard" and Suarez "has no vision".

They have to be the two most unbelievable comments I've ever heard by "football fans".

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am wrote:Most important, what I look for....

1.the ability to not give the ball away
2. The ability to create chances, see openings and put others in on goal.
3. Strength and speed.
4. An eye for goal.
5 good crossing ability, into the box.
6. Ability to bomb down the wing.
7. Solid tackling ability.

Stevie G is the only LFC player that ticks most of those boxes.

Coutinho, can change direction, see openings , put others in in goal,

but he cant dribble, shoot on target,

and loses posession easily .you dread it when he is on the edge of the box with the ball as you know he can't score.

Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

Lucas has no creative ability. Can only short pass side to side. Is a one trick pony.

Johnson can bomb down the wing but cant cross or shoot to save his life.

Carra was great tackler, but was awful for pace.

Toure- looks strong, good tackler. Not sure about pace.

Hendo- good engine, but cant score goals, not creative enough final third.

Enrique- good on the ball, but cant cross, shoot, or tackle. Well.

Agger/skrtel - good tacklers, readers of the game, but both liabilities in our box with crosses. And no pace. They are not that good on the deck either.

Sturridge- good eye for goal. His vision, crossing passing in the box though is not the best, although he is strong + quick.

Aspas, moses, llori, sakho ibe etc etc.- well, your guess is as good as mine on that lot

Unfortunately, not many of our players have these essential abilities

Now that's proof if I ever saw it that there is such a thing as a parallel Universe

With regards to ability. Firstly for outfield players the main attributes to look for are:

Can they pass?
Can they receive a ball with a good touch?
Is there movement good without the ball or are they static?
Can their touch buy them time?
Do they keep the ball?
Can they spot a pass?

The basics. And I wouldn't want a player in my side who lacks in any of those departments. Unfortunately at Liverpool at the moment we have far to many who are poor in at least one of these area's and some, who are poor in all of them.

Alot of people bang on about attitude and application, at the end of the day, the top players, are generally top players, because they have attitude and application as a given. Hence the reason the likes of City, Chelsea and Man United are always the top sides over the last few years. Because they are the sides with the most quality and the most desire. Their desire shows by forcing results they have no right to get and also there quality can gain results in the same way. They also have enough quality that at times they can beat sides only playing at about 75% of their ability. No side is at there best over the season and its during the dips in form that quality and desire will get you through more often than not.

The main four area's of the game would be physical attributes, technical, tactial and mental. If you're talking about effectiveness you could probably add dead ball's into the equation.

You can often find players in the championship and league one who are premiership class in at least one of these areas of the game, when you have world class players like Suarez, Rooney, van Persie, Ronaldo, Messi etc etc... you'll find they are probably excellent in all area's.

Attributes can be relative to a position, but not always. Playing a player out of position due to lack of a certain attributes can lead to players showing glimpses of ability but never becoming consistent. Also, attributes need to compliment each other for players to become effective. There is no point in having Alonso's vision but not having the ability to nail the pass for example. Jay Spearing was a prime example for Liverpool, he shown he could tackle, had fight and could see a pass, but he also shown a lack of physicality and speed to make the tackle, and a lack of concentration to complete the pass.

For me its more about the team as a unit than any specific player attributes.  Certain players all providing certain attributes.

The best midfield I can remember us ever fielding was

                    Mascherano  Alonso
Kuyt                                             Riera / yossi
                         Gerrard

Mascherano was the defensive destroyer, great at tackling and breaking up attacks.  Alonso had fantastic vision and passed the ball around with ease.  Gerrard had a free role were he could cause havoc in the final third and didn't have to worry too much about defensive duties.
Kuyt worked us socks off down the right, ran himself into the ground and scored lots of huge goals for us.
Riera, although fairly average, offered us a lot of width on the left.
Yossi could cover pretty much any of RW, LW or free role.. roles and he was always capable of picking out a pass. 

That midfield was up there with the best in the world because it had balance.  If we had of had one or two more options for the wide positions I think we would have won the league. 

It pains me at times looking back because that team was fantastic and Rafa was a brilliant manager.  3 to 4 players away from challenging for the league and CL every season.

StuYesThatStu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:31 am wrote:

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am wrote:
Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

All of that is rubbish...

But no vision? Seriously?

So on the last few days we've had "Lucas is better than Gerrard" and Suarez "has no vision".

They have to be the two most unbelievable comments I've ever heard by "football fans".

I meant that he always has his head down in the box, is self centered and always tries to go for goal himself, instead of getting his head up and looking around for other players to pass to. And as a result, he often fluffs good chances.

tadhger09 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:52 am wrote:

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am wrote:Most important, what I look for....

1.the ability to not give the ball away
2. The ability to create chances, see openings and put others in on goal.
3. Strength and speed.
4. An eye for goal.
5 good crossing ability, into the box.
6. Ability to bomb down the wing.
7. Solid tackling ability.

Stevie G is the only LFC player that ticks most of those boxes.

Coutinho, can change direction, see openings , put others in in goal,

but he cant dribble, shoot on target,

and loses posession easily .you dread it when he is on the edge of the box with the ball as you know he can't score.

Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

Lucas has no creative ability. Can only short pass side to side. Is a one trick pony.

Johnson can bomb down the wing but cant cross or shoot to save his life.

Carra was great tackler, but was awful for pace.

Toure- looks strong, good tackler. Not sure about pace.

Hendo- good engine, but cant score goals, not creative enough final third.

Enrique- good on the ball, but cant cross, shoot, or tackle. Well.

Agger/skrtel - good tacklers, readers of the game, but both liabilities in our box with crosses. And no pace. They are not that good on the deck either.

Sturridge- good eye for goal. His vision, crossing passing in the box though is not the best, although he is strong + quick.

Aspas, moses, llori, sakho ibe etc etc.- well, your guess is as good as mine on that lot

Unfortunately, not many of our players have these essential abilities

Now that's proof if I ever saw it that there is such a thing as a parallel Universe

Did you watch him V Man Utd ? He Coutinho could not get past the first man. He ran out of ideas, and was useless in that game. not much better V Villa and Stoke. Watch the games mate, you need to.

jacdaniel » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:26 am wrote:For me its more about the team as a unit than any specific player attributes.  Certain players all providing certain attributes.

The best midfield I can remember us ever fielding was

                    Mascherano  Alonso
Kuyt                                             Riera / yossi
                         Gerrard

Mascherano was the defensive destroyer, great at tackling and breaking up attacks.  Alonso had fantastic vision and passed the ball around with ease.  Gerrard had a free role were he could cause havoc in the final third and didn't have to worry too much about defensive duties.
Kuyt worked us socks off down the right, ran himself into the ground and scored lots of huge goals for us.
Riera, although fairly average, offered us a lot of width on the left.
Yossi could cover pretty much any of RW, LW or free role.. roles and he was always capable of picking out a pass. 

That midfield was up there with the best in the world because it had balance.  If we had of had one or two more options for the wide positions I think we would have won the league. 

It pains me at times looking back because that team was fantastic and Rafa was a brilliant manager.  3 to 4 players away from challenging for the league and CL every season.

That midfield was good because of Gerrard and Alonso.

Rieira had skill, could pass and was a good, if not great left sided player. Unfortunately it was let down by Mascherano and Kuyt. Kuyt was a decent player but an awful winger. Mascherano was ***** poor on the ball, but exceptionally good off it. I would have gladly lost that defensive edge for a creative spark.

Gerrard should have played next to Alonso in that midfield and a player like Coutinho should have been brought in to play infront of them. IMO. Again a time when we've had two fabulous players in a position and not utilised them properly.

Unfortunately, the best midfield I've ever seen was United's with Keane, Scholes, Giggs and Beckham. Those four as a unit had the lot, all very different, all with treamendous ability and a class player in their own right. Its a horrible thing to say on LFC forum. Also a close second was Arsenal's midfield of Vieira, Petit, Overmars and Parlour.

If I had to pick an all time premiership midfield I'd go with Pires, Vieira, Scholes and Gerrard on the right

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:32 am wrote:

StuYesThatStu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:31 am wrote:

Hustler 2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:44 am wrote:
Suarez scores, but is wasteful with many chances, he cant pass or cross, his head is always down, has no vision, and has many weaknesess.

All of that is rubbish...

But no vision? Seriously?

So on the last few days we've had "Lucas is better than Gerrard" and Suarez "has no vision".

They have to be the two most unbelievable comments I've ever heard by "football fans".

I meant that he always has his head down in the box, is self centered and always tries to go for goal himself, instead of getting his head up and looking around for other players to pass to. And as a result, he often fluffs good chances.

StuYesThatStu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:36 am wrote:

jacdaniel » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:26 am wrote:For me its more about the team as a unit than any specific player attributes.  Certain players all providing certain attributes.

The best midfield I can remember us ever fielding was

                    Mascherano  Alonso
Kuyt                                             Riera / yossi
                         Gerrard

Mascherano was the defensive destroyer, great at tackling and breaking up attacks.  Alonso had fantastic vision and passed the ball around with ease.  Gerrard had a free role were he could cause havoc in the final third and didn't have to worry too much about defensive duties.
Kuyt worked us socks off down the right, ran himself into the ground and scored lots of huge goals for us.
Riera, although fairly average, offered us a lot of width on the left.
Yossi could cover pretty much any of RW, LW or free role.. roles and he was always capable of picking out a pass. 

That midfield was up there with the best in the world because it had balance.  If we had of had one or two more options for the wide positions I think we would have won the league. 

It pains me at times looking back because that team was fantastic and Rafa was a brilliant manager.  3 to 4 players away from challenging for the league and CL every season.

The best midfield I've ever seen was United's with Keane, Scholes, Giggs and Beckham. Those four as a unit had the lot, all very different, all with treamendous ability and a class player in their own right.

I knew you were a closet Manc Stu,   stalking this forum.

StuYesThatStu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:38 am wrote:

Ok Funny yeah??? You watch Suarez the next time we play, and watch him in the box and how many chances he scuffs, that we probably would have scored from if he got his head up and just passed the ball.

jacdaniel » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:26 am wrote:For me its more about the team as a unit than any specific player attributes.  Certain players all providing certain attributes.

The best midfield I can remember us ever fielding was

                    Mascherano  Alonso
Kuyt                                             Riera / yossi
                         Gerrard

Mascherano was the defensive destroyer, great at tackling and breaking up attacks.  Alonso had fantastic vision and passed the ball around with ease.  Gerrard had a free role were he could cause havoc in the final third and didn't have to worry too much about defensive duties.
Kuyt worked us socks off down the right, ran himself into the ground and scored lots of huge goals for us.
Riera, although fairly average, offered us a lot of width on the left.
Yossi could cover pretty much any of RW, LW or free role.. roles and he was always capable of picking out a pass. 

That midfield was up there with the best in the world because it had balance.  If we had of had one or two more options for the wide positions I think we would have won the league. 

It pains me at times looking back because that team was fantastic and Rafa was a brilliant manager.  3 to 4 players away from challenging for the league and CL every season.

Good point, but two, maybe three of that midfield were world class. Totally valid point though. But Yossi, Riera, Kuyt, they perhaps weren't considered "sexy" players which is maybe the actual disappointment some people have. I don't point fingers at anyone, or belittle anyone, but some people's knowledge of football comes from computer games. In fact some managers use FM's scouting programme for tips.

Some teams like Barca can have a gem in every position. Play three seasons of FM and one could have a gem in every position at Stockport.

Teams with limited resources need the balancing act you describe, Jac. It's that basic naivety of some that irks me.

Did you watch him V Man Utd ? He Coutinho could not get past the first man. He ran out of ideas, and was useless in that game. not much better V Villa and Stoke. Watch the games mate, you need to.

3 games where he hasn't been at his best for Christ's sake.

He was immense up til then. He beat players for fun and was involved in nearly everything positive in our play. Come on Hustler 2 the kid is a class act.

A good example of mind over matter in football terms is Paolo Maldini. Great player all around but his dad complained that he wasn't given enough credit and pointed to a CL game vs United. Maldini played left back and no crosses came in from whoever Uniteds winger was all night long. The amazing part was that Paolo hadn't made a challenge, ariel or otherwise, all night long. Had loads of interceptions though. The point of course is that if one quality is really good, you might not need the others at all.