aCe' » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:45 pm wrote:StuYesThatStu » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:54 pm wrote:aCe' » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:36 pm wrote:Welcome back Stu...
That OP looks like something I'd write after a nice blunt and a couple of Coronas. Not very coherent, but you understand the gist of it. To a large extent, I agree with most of what Stu said. The state of the forum is a bit sad atm especially given the fact that I think its a great time to finally get back to talking footie, tactics, players...etc rather than picking on other posters and their opinions. I know it sounds a bit hypocritical; many here remember the arguments myself, Stu, Mick, Saint, Ciggy, mods..etc had over the years about the exact same 'negativity positivity, real fan, manager mistakes..etc' BS. The difference is, back then both parties -despite everything- put forth some of the best footie discussions this board has seen. Now, every fcking thread seems to be littered with insults aimed at one poster (Benny). Regardless of whether one is right or wrong, surely everyone realizes that it has become boring as fck. The mods have made their stance clear and its a bit pointless ointing it out whenever the fella makes a post.
On a different note and getting back to the topic (I still cant figure out what the topic is to be honest but I'll give it a go), I agree that many of the players we have in the side are average players who arent very likely to get us far in terms of winning the league. With what we have atm, I think we'll need a bit of luck and for Rodgers to make all the right moves (tactically, transfers..etc) to get that 4th spot ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham. Where I dont agree with Stu is the fact that you need 11 top talents on the pitch who are all top players to get to that CL spot. I'm not Henderson's biggest fan, and I agree that he's one of the average players we have. Same with Moses, Aspas, Lucas, Skrtel, Cissokho, etc. However, we do neeed players like Lucas and Henderson to provide that bit of balance and energy to the side in many games.
Again, it all goes back to what our objectives are. For me, a 4th place finish would be an achievement, and probably our goal for the season. For that, I think Lucas in the starting 11 as a player whos primary job is to protect the back4 is good enough. If our objective was winning the league, we'd probably have to look at a better alternative to bring into the starting 11. A more pressing concern in the starting 11 is that right wing spot. We're currently playing Henderson in the position but he's not someone who is likely to offer you much over 38 games as you put it. Yes, his work rate is good and he'll offer that bit of balance (probably the best option we have unless Moses does a Sturridge and proves to be a gem) but he lacks the creativity and guile needed above and beyond the standard shift that he currently puts in. Another major concern is the lack of a plan B which is largely due to a lack of quality in midfield/forward positions on the bench. It's too early to judge Aspas and Alberto but I have my doubts about both. Funny enough, the area we seemed to struggle with the most (CBs) has suddenly become our strongest in our squad at least in terms of personnel and the quality/options they bring to the table.
Overall for me, theres work to be done but its not as bad as being made out. Top of the league after 3 games means nothing if we can't improve and more importantly build on it. We're 2 players short of having a side that SHOULD get a top4 spot. The squad isn't average and we have some game changers in the side who are yet to play or play to their potential (Suarez, Gerrard, and Coutinho to be exact) so to borrow your line "Fact is, the truth has always been somewhere in the middle" when it comes to our prospects.
Ace, thats the point mate, I don't believe you need 11 world class players. But you do need one or two, and alot of class players aswell as good ones. Liverpool lack the good ones for me mate.
United have good players, as good Chelsea and Arsenal, at Liverpool we've the got the sublime... and dog average. I don't see many dog average players in and around the United, Chelsea and Arsenal line ups, or even Spurs for that matter. I'd even push it and and say Everton have more "good players" than we do... only we have a few top players where they don't (IE Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez).
With regards to the centre backs though ACE I'm sorry I don't agree. Agger is a good player, but he's not "the answer" so to speak. Toure I'm not overly convinced by, I also have a mate who's a city fan (I have alot of mates these days) and he says he preferes Lescott and Toure is a bit of a liability (at times, something I am a bit wary of myself).
I think defensively we're quite weak. We protect the defence well as a team, tacitcally I think defensively we're good, but I believe the personel isn't upto it. Sahko is a player however I've seen absoloutely nothing of. If he turns out to be the same level of player Sami Hyypia was then we may well be onto something providing we can convince Reina to come back next season
I think it might be easier if I do it this way :
Top bracket (game changer, top quality player) :
Suarez
Gerrard
title contender good:
Coutinho
Johnson
Enrique
Sakho (potentially could become one of the best around)
Top4 good:
Sturridge (if he can continue producing as he has since joining)
Agger
Mignolet
Thats 9 players who for me are good enough given our objectives. I'll take it one bit further for you, if Sturridge manages to develop his all round game a bit more especially in terms of movement inside the box and keeping the ball outside it then I think he can break into the higher bracket soon. Agger is great on the ball but he's one of those players who needs to play alongside a top CB imo to elevate his game and gain that extra bit of confidence that seems to take his game to the next level.
With regards to Lucas, he narrowly missed out on the last bracket for me. I know he doesnt tick all the boxes you'd want your CM to have covered but when fit he covers the pitch well and is a bit of specialty player we have in that regard and a major reason behind the 'team as a whole' defending well imo. That said, replacing him wouldnt be as big a priority for me as say bringing in a backup option is.
Back to your point about 'good players' which is an interesting one, I think the likes of Sakho, Johnson, Enrique, Sturridge, and Coutinho (I know you have him higher but he's yet to earn that for me) from our starting 11 all fall in that category imo. Our bench however lacks in that department. Toure (whom I wasn a big fan of but has done well in the first couple of games so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt) is the only player on our bench I'd have on that list which is something I guess we've looked to address by bringing in Aspas (an unknown quantity for me).
We're also disregarding the younger players (Kelly, Sterling, Ibe) who ideally would be going out on loan to get some experience.
The brackets you've put the players in I certainly wouldn't include Johnson, Sturridge or Mingolet.
Mignolet and Sturridge are ok for my money but nothing special, I don't think either would get into Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd or City's team. I think there are alot of players in the same positions in the league that are better than these and the other joker... well... thats for another thread altogether. I refuse to even discuss how poor he is anymore and am just to the blind leading the blind with him.
Sahko for me mate, sorry but he's a none entity till I've seen the lad play... from what I've been told, I'm not expecting much, just kind of hoping he's the answer rather than believing.
I think using your analogy I'd include Gerrard and Suarez as top bracket,
Enrique and Coutinho in the next.
Agger in the next...
Lucas, Mingolet, Toure, Sturridge (maybe Kelly) in the next...
Then the rest in the dog average bunch at best... obviously excluding the lads like Ilori and Sakho I've never seen.
