Liverpool FC Forum

tubby » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:56 pm wrote:I'm loving the new formation and hope he ditches 442 for good. We look more hungry for goals and possession this way.

Stop being so conservative Ace.

Conservative ?  I'm not against playing 4-3-3. If anything, given the right players and tactics, I think its the best formation out there for fluid attacking football. That said, I dont think our transfers so far have helped us as much as they should have in transitioning to the new formation. Like many have said, the emphasis going forward will mostly be placed on the 3 being played upfront. Atm, our options are Carroll, Suarez, Borini, Downing and Cole. Suarez will most likely play the central role with Borini down the left and Downing down the right. For me, thats cause for concern if we are serious about a top 4 finish. I dont think Downing or Borini for that matter are good enough for a top4 spot. Borini might be a decent backup for Suarez in the central role but as a starter down the flank he is a gamble. As for Downing, it remains to be seen whether he can improve from his embarrassing contribution from last season. I think he will, but I'm not sure it will be enough for him to warrant a guaranteed starting spot week in week out, which will be the case if we dont bring anyone else in. Carroll as far as I'm concerned is simply a planB. I dont think the manager has him in his plans and the fact he was prepared to loan him out tells you all you need to know about how much he figures in our plans.

So in response to what you said, yes i do like the 4-3-3. I just dont understand why we prioritized signing Allen and Borini and perhaps even Dempsey ahead of bringing in replacements for Kuyt, Maxi, and Bellamy.

Most of the best teams on the planet play a 4-3-3 formation. So if it works for them, then why can't it work for us?

Good thread this. I've also got some concerns about the wide areas. Let's be honest, we haven't had a genuinely decent wide man since McManaman left for Madrid and it is the most under-addressed position in the team for the past 1-12 years. If FSG are going to give BR any more money before the season starts then I'd like to tihnk that a right winger is the priority. Borini has actually looked quite bright so far playing on the left hand side and his movement reminded me of Maxi in that he seems to have good awareness of suraez and is keen to drift in field and provide a goal threat. I'm not particularly convinced about Downing and it would not be fair to place too much burden on young Sterling who will need time to develop. However, I have been very encouraged to see how far forward Gerrard has been playing the past 2 games and I think that this may be the key to makiong this formation work. Suarez should play through the middle imo, I think he is far more effective in central areas. The closer he plays to the oppo goal the better + I suspect he would be far easier to marginalise for the oppo if he's played in one of the wide positions.

I don't think the 'wide' players in a 4-3-3 have to be typically/naturally 'wide' players, just my opinion.

You couldn't get a more orthodox 'winger' than Downing and yet its seems Rodgers prefers him on the right of a 3 pronged attack. Sterling started on the left, both players it seems are there to cut in on their better foot and shoot, or link up with other team mates. I don't think it's a massive priority for Rodgers to get his wide players to the byline and whip in crosses, I think he wants link-up play, pass and move stuff more than anything else. Hence, I don't think we need to concern ourselves with wide players as such, as Suarez, Sterling, Bonini, Cole, Gerrard even all are able to play in this kind of system. Rodgers has be linked with buying Dempsey for e.g, who isn't a typical wide player, more so a central one. Dempsey can play anywhere along the front of an attacking trio because he's not specifically asked to play the orthodox winger role, the two wider players in a Rodgers' 4-3-3 don't hug the touchline and create width, they stay in local positions to support the middle man.

Conversely if a wide player with pace were to come on the market and Rodgers liked him then he could also play in this system - but I don't see why it's a necessity or concern to everyone that we haven't got one of these players in the squad yet, apart from the fact it gives us more "options".

this is why i'd love to see sahin come in on loan. it's enable us to play lucas/sahin/allen as a three and push gerrard forward, maybe on the right of the front three. certainly against gomel he appeared to be playing in more of a free role with little defensive responsibility and that's what i want to see him doing this season.

it's all about fluidity really and that's why unfortunately it's hard to see carroll fitting in, even though i'd keep him as an option. borini looks good from the little of seen, certainly in terms of link up play and movement.

Kenny Kan » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:04 am wrote:I don't think the 'wide' players in a 4-3-3 have to be typically/naturally 'wide' players, just my opinion.

You couldn't get a more orthodox 'winger' than Downing and yet its seems Rodgers prefers him on the right of a 3 pronged attack. Sterling started on the left, both players it seems are there to cut in on their better foot and shoot, or link up with other team mates. I don't think it's a massive priority for Rodgers to get his wide players to the byline and whip in crosses, I think he wants link-up play, pass and move stuff more than anything else. Hence, I don't think we need to concern ourselves with wide players as such, as Suarez, Sterling, Bonini, Cole, Gerrard even all are able to play in this kind of system. Rodgers has be linked with buying Dempsey for e.g, who isn't a typical wide player, more so a central one. Dempsey can play anywhere along the front of an attacking trio because he's not specifically asked to play the orthodox winger role, the two wider players in a Rodgers' 4-3-3 don't hug the touchline and create width, they stay in local positions to support the middle man.

Conversely if a wide player with pace were to come on the market and Rodgers liked him then he could also play in this system - but I don't see why it's a necessity or concern to everyone that we haven't got one of these players in the squad yet, apart from the fact it gives us more "options".

Great post Bam, I'm fu.cking pist.  Mods!

Kenny Kan » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:04 am wrote:I don't think the 'wide' players in a 4-3-3 have to be typically/naturally 'wide' players, just my opinion.

You couldn't get a more orthodox 'winger' than Downing and yet its seems Rodgers prefers him on the right of a 3 pronged attack. Sterling started on the left, both players it seems are there to cut in on their better foot and shoot, or link up with other team mates. I don't think it's a massive priority for Rodgers to get his wide players to the byline and whip in crosses, I think he wants link-up play, pass and move stuff more than anything else. Hence, I don't think we need to concern ourselves with wide players as such, as Suarez, Sterling, Bonini, Cole, Gerrard even all are able to play in this kind of system. Rodgers has be linked with buying Dempsey for e.g, who isn't a typical wide player, more so a central one. Dempsey can play anywhere along the front of an attacking trio because he's not specifically asked to play the orthodox winger role, the two wider players in a Rodgers' 4-3-3 don't hug the touchline and create width, they stay in local positions to support the middle man.

Conversely if a wide player with pace were to come on the market and Rodgers liked him then he could also play in this system - but I don't see why it's a necessity or concern to everyone that we haven't got one of these players in the squad yet, apart from the fact it gives us more "options".

Agree with this.   Looks like we are going to be going with the inverted wide forward approach.  The wide forward will cut inside to create attacks / shoot and it will be Johnson and Enrique's role to overlap towards the by line.

Lucas and Allen sitting deeper will accommodate the fullbacks getting forward.

Scottbot » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:58 am wrote:Good thread this. I've also got some concerns about the wide areas. Let's be honest, we haven't had a genuinely decent wide man since McManaman left for Madrid and it is the most under-addressed position in the team for the past 1-12 years. If FSG are going to give BR any more money before the season starts then I'd like to tihnk that a right winger is the priority. Borini has actually looked quite bright so far playing on the left hand side and his movement reminded me of Maxi in that he seems to have good awareness of suraez and is keen to drift in field and provide a goal threat. I'm not particularly convinced about Downing and it would not be fair to place too much burden on young Sterling who will need time to develop. However, I have been very encouraged to see how far forward Gerrard has been playing the past 2 games and I think that this may be the key to makiong this formation work. Suarez should play through the middle imo, I think he is far more effective in central areas. The closer he plays to the oppo goal the better + I suspect he would be far easier to marginalise for the oppo if he's played in one of the wide positions.

Nice to see you around Scott. I completely agree regarding the Gerrard thing. Reminded me of the days Gerrard practically played as a second striker behind Torres. I think him and Suarez can form a deadly partnership and I too am very excited about it. I also agree about Suarez, hes never going to be the sort of striker to stick to his position and play on the shoulder of te last defender looking to break behind them. He'll drift to the flanks and the other 2 will no doubt need to have the positional awareness and movement to fill up the central role when he does. In that respect, I think Borini has shown promise in moving inside when needed and attempting to add numbers in the central areas. However, and despite the fact that I admittedly haven't seen enough of him to be able to  accurately judge his game, I still have my doubts that Borini has the ability, technique and experience needed to be able to contribute goals and assists consistently from his new role.

A couple of other things regarding what others have said. Kenny, I dont think we need a natural wide player either. However what we do need is players who are players who play in the wide positions who are able to play the setup and style Rodgers is trying to implement. I dont think Dempsey is the type of player we need though. We need a little more creativity and flair from the wider areas and I dont think many would argue that either Downing or Borini are renown for these qualities.

About stmichael's suggestion, I dont think we need to convert Gerrard's position to allow him that free role we all agree he needs. Like you said, against Gomel, he was able to link up well with the other attacking players and again like Suarez, I think he does most of his good work from more central areas. He also has a tendency to put in more crosses than perhaps is suited to our style when he is in wider position and I'd much rather he looked for the give and go or ran at centerbacks/ defensive midfielders to create chances.

I think it's important to point out that so far we haven't played 433 under rogers bar the first 75 minutes in the away game against Gomel. He's almost exclusively used gerrard as a support striker since then to very good effect with Shelvey and Lucas as the two deep central midfielders. Going forward I expect to see Lucas and Allen as almost a double pivot in a 4-2-3-1.

To be fair 4-3-3 is just the same as 4-2-3-1, in fact 4-2-1-2-1 would be more accurate or would you prefer 2-2-2-1-2-1, could even add in the goalie 1-2-2-2-1-2-1.

stmichael » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:09 am wrote:this is why i'd love to see sahin come in on loan. it's enable us to play lucas/sahin/allen as a three and push gerrard forward, maybe on the right of the front three. certainly against gomel he appeared to be playing in more of a free role with little defensive responsibility and that's what i want to see him doing this season.

it's all about fluidity really and that's why unfortunately it's hard to see carroll fitting in, even though i'd keep him as an option. borini looks good from the little of seen, certainly in terms of link up play and movement.

Pretty much couldn't have said it better myself.  Sahin comes in, put Stevie on the right and play the same way we did against Gomel.  Stevie's best as an attacking player, and when he plays in the center he sometimes gets caught way too far back, and we can't have that.  Lucas, Allen and Sahin supporting a front three of Borini, Suarez and Stevie is a fairly attacking side with Lucas' ability to get in the attack without compromising his defensive capabilities.

I also share similar fears about Carroll.  I've supported the kid from the start and was really upset it sounded like Rogers was trying to move him, but watching how we've played under Rogers so far, I see it hard for him to take a commanding roll in the team.  I feel awful for the kid, but I'm starting to worry that we won't be able to use him like we've hoped.

A couple of other things regarding what others have said. Kenny, I dont think we need a natural wide player either. However what we do need is players who are players who play in the wide positions who are able to play the setup and style Rodgers is trying to implement. I dont think Dempsey is the type of player we need though. We need a little more creativity and flair from the wider areas and I dont think many would argue that either Downing or Borini are renown for these qualities.   

I do remember many instances when we looked devoid of creativity, yet last season it was more of a fact that we couldn't finish off the many many chances we created. We did create but we didn't convert. Perhaps Rodgers sees the team needing goal scorers, Suarez in my book isn't a natural, clinical striker in fact he's more of the creative player you're talking about. IMO we need a few lads up top who can stick that onion into the back of the net, Borini hopefully, Dempsey if he comes, and Steven Gerrard will score his fair share. I think the brand of football Rodgers believes in, pass & move with hopefully a great deal of emphasis on the move part, will see this team as a whole creating enough chances, we just need the blokes to finish those chances off.

Downing is far too static and predictable to be playing as one of the front three in this formation. On the right, all he does is cut inside and more often than not he gets dispossessed and the attack breaks down.

stmichael » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:09 pm wrote:Downing is far too static and predictable to be playing as one of the front three in this formation. On the right, all he does is cut inside and more often than not he gets dispossessed and the attack breaks down.

going on todays performance you could say the same thing about borini, he struggled to get involved in the game as well.
luis has taken a bit of stick today for not taking his chances but lets be fair he had very little help from the the other 2 players in the front 3.
he had to be a one man army again.