Liverpool FC Forum

Penguins » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:23 pm wrote:For me it is simple.
The ultimate goal is the league, nothing else.
Finishing fourth aftar a long 38 league campaign tells me that we are making progress and getting closer to the league.
Cups are nice but finishing midtable in the league means we are miles away from the league and next season is going to be a another season without a chance or hope for the league title.

4th by itself is then nice by itself since it bring that extra revenue which some people doesn't realise how important that is LONG TERM. Cups means very little at all long term both financially and how we progress as a team.
The american owners isn't going to go arab style with us, so making it to the CL will mean we can spend more on better players. Which in turn will make us a better team and there you have a positive spriral
that will allow us to compte for the ultiamte prize, the league. There is no other way.

regular cl qualification doesnt guarantee success in the league.
in the last 5 occasions we qualified for the cl it was only 2 seasons that we got within 10 pts of winning the league in 05/06 and 08/09.the last one being our closest only losing by 4pts.
from 02/03 up till 08/09 we were regular qualifiers for the cl and enjoyed the money and if that kind of run in heralds "LONG TERM" financial stability and better players then where is it now? and we certainly arent any closer to the league either.

then again do you remember the cowboys? who never invested and just took? who plundered the finances and sold our players? and replaced them with inferior ones and almost brought our club to extinction?.
well that was less than 2 years ago and now we are in the process of rebuilding our team and our position within the league and it isnt going to happen in 12 months and from where we were 2 years ago to now imo shows progression.
yes i would like it to be quicker but in reality without major financing (like city)its going to take time but not as long as most think.
we will get back there in the next 2 to 3 years and quite possibly it could happen next year although your crystal ball already ruled that out.
i share your ultimate goal and im willing to bet so does fsg and in the meantime if we can win cups then we are progressing.

The thing is I would swap all those league cups and FA cups for Legaue TITLES!
And we are nowhere even close to one. Finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th shows there are signs and hope that the team has what it takes to get the title.
Winnning a domestic cup now and then wont.

supersub » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:02 am wrote:

Kukilon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:17 am wrote:In the long run top four would be more important because it will mean more cup wins also.

Top four doesn't mean more cup wins........ie....  Arsenal

Arsenal is doing what good for the club in the long run. If they continue on this path and we continue on ours they will win more than us in the future. If it wasn't for Chelsea and Mancitys billionaires which have financially doped their teams Arsenal would have at least won something.

We are lagging behind in the revenue area because of the stadium, missing CL and spending shitloads on ***** players. If you can't see that this will lead to failure on the field on the long run you will need to take some economic lessons.

Ofcourse I'm also happy about our league cup win and hopefully we can beat Chelsea to the FA cup also.

Blimey how long is this run for Arsenal ? 7 years they haven't won anything

supersub » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:15 pm wrote:I find it astounding that there are Liverpool supporters who quite frankly don't feel winning trophies is a worthwhile event in a clubs existence..........I can only assume these anti-cup brigade don't go , so the whole cup final fervour is alien to them........

I have no doubt the history that our great club is steeped in, means absolutely squat to many of the CL viewing officianado's

Its like Clone wars ....Somewhere in the Galaxy in a vain attempt to replicate the Liverpool supporter and all their fantastic qualities ,its all gone
Pete Tong ,leaving us with legions of average Joe's who look similar but are lacking the traits that made us legendary .

Benny The Noon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:13 pm wrote:Blimey how long is this run for Arsenal ? 7 years they haven't won anything

It will get harder and harder for us every year and easier and easier for them. No one can give an exact anser to that question.

maguskwt » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:14 am wrote:If we win the FA cup, I will be to a certain extent satisfied for this season. However, if we do not win it, I will be disappointed. The real measure of progress I'm afraid is the league position. And that's why finishing 4th is also important. Because it shows that we have progressed. Financially and in terms of attracting top players, it is absolutely necessary to finish top4 and competing in the CL. Finishing 4th is actually better for building a team to be challenging the league than winning the FA cup. Outside of England, nobody really cares about the FA cup.

It's actually watched around the world. To help illustrate the point:
"2005's Final at the Millennium Stadium, where Arsenal beat Manchester United on penalties, had an estimated global TV audience of 484 million."
http://thefa.com/Competitions/FACompetitions/TheFACup/History/broadcastingthecup

In the long-run it's essential we get back playing regular CL football but winning the cups has real benefits, too. Not just in terms of commercial gain, but for the spirit of the players and supporters who were without a trophy for six seasons.

In the nordic countries the FA cup means a lot. The league cup is seen as sort of a micky mouse cup though.

Kukilon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:25 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:13 pm wrote:Blimey how long is this run for Arsenal ? 7 years they haven't won anything

It will get harder and harder for us every year and easier and easier for them. No one can give an exact anser to that question.

The longer they don't win trophies the more players they will lose. Fabregas last year , RVP will go soon enough

Penguins » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:23 pm wrote:For me it is simple.
The ultimate goal is the league, nothing else.
Finishing fourth after a long 38 league campaign tells me that we are making progress and getting closer to the league.
Cups are nice but finishing midtable in the league means we are miles away from the league and next season is going to be a another season without a chance or hope for the league title.

4th by itself is then nice by itself since it bring that extra revenue which some people doesn't realise how important that is LONG TERM. Cups means very little at all long term both financially and how we progress as a team.
The american owners isn't going to go arab style with us, so making it to the CL will mean we can spend more on better players. Which in turn will make us a better team and there you have a positive spriral
that will allow us to compte for the ultiamte prize, the league. There is no other way.

That's a very utilitarian/Heimdellian view of success. Supporters like yourself place very little intrinsic value in the domestic trophies -- in the history of the two competitions and what it means to experience cup football, despite yielding some of the greatest moments in our history. Can't help but feel you're missing out`

Kukilon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:25 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:13 pm wrote:Blimey how long is this run for Arsenal ? 7 years they haven't won anything

It will get harder and harder for us every year and easier and easier for them. No one can give an exact anser to that question.

I struggle to understand certain individuals reasoning..........

Arsenal 7 years without a trophy.......it's getting easier for them (what ? to continue to not win anything )

Winning a trophy and being in a cup final makes it harder to apease the "we don't wan't a cup we love 4th" bunch

The question posed was ... 4th or trophies in my view as a supporter who actually attends the games and actually supports the club verbally , physically and with my hard earned cash , I prefer repayment in trophies and excitement....4th place is compo for a loser.....

                             FOOTNOTE: I would like to qualify for the CL but it's not the end game

The Arsenal example is a bit of a red herring.

Nobody argues that fourth guarantees success. It does, though, guarantee the opportunity to play in a competition that has the potential to earn the club much greater revenues and attract much better players (because of the revenue potential and the lure of playing against the best of the best in the CL). There are lots of other factors at play that determine success so although there is a strong correlation between CL qualification and success (the sustained domination by CL regulars of both the league and cups), not every club that finishes in the top four is going to make the most of that opportunity with Arsenal being the classic example. Likewise, if we qualify but don't spend the money, buy the wrong players or mismanage the team, we will also have squandered that opportunity. But an important opportunity it is, particularly in light of the new FFP rules and the need for the club to finance itself.

Is that opportunity more or less important than winning one or both of the domestic trophies? That depends on your view of success, your assessment of how valuable a CL place would be, and the importance you place on league position as an indicator of potential.

If you would take a cup win over any league position short of first place, then you are someone who places a very high value on domestic cup success and much less importance on the opportunities presented by finishing fourth. Similarly, if you would take fourth ahead of a cup double, then you are someone who places a much lesser value on the domestic cups and much greater importance on the opportunities offered by finishing fourth.

The two go together, you have to be 4th place quality to win cups anyway. Arsenal have become very bland and their achievements - truth be known - are no more exciting than Fulham or Spurs - flurries of activity before settleing down into their expected position with no silverware to show for it.
 
Liverpool always focused on the league and europe was a bonus. Rafa changed that but with Barca, Real Madrid etc.. coming to town then its easy to lose interest in the likes of Wigan and Norwich.

I guess you could say that league performance is serving your apprenticeship, winning the CL is for proven winners.

When we were involved in the CL, winning, getting in the final, qualifying, I wasnt really as arsed about winning the PL. I thought it would be a matter of time until we won it, but the CL adventures made up for the disappointment.
Looking back we should have concentrated more on winning the league, especially when Rafa fu'cked up royally in Athens. And if I had the time over I would take winning the PL after 2005, which would have meant that we would have qualified for the CL anyway

Just to echo a few points already made. No one will remember who came 4th in 2011-2012 season (unless it was unexpected) But we will have our name etched on the carling cup and hopefully the FA cup this year.

4th spot is great as we would play champions league football but id rather win a double then finish fourth and get battered in the champions league ( Not my opinion but people dont think our squads good enough)

Our squad will get stronger in the next few years. Hell i think we will be up there next year.

Some one mentioned Arsenal and the way they build there team and it gets stronger something liek that.

They took Fabreags as a youngster didnt win hardly anything one trophy i think...... He ***** off
Samir nasri took him 4 seasons ago developed him ......... He ***** off
Robin Van persie  In my opinion the best striker around ....... If man city,Barca or Real come calling are arsenal fans certain he wont f*ck off.