Liverpool FC Forum

by **D___C** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:07 pm

devaney » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:47 pm wrote:It was always my fear when fan power and the new owners went after Kenny in an act of absolute desperation when he was enjoying life on a cruise! Let's face it he was under minimal pressure when he took over as manager. If he failed it was Roy's fault and if he succeeded he was a miracle man. Fourth place became a real possibility but poor results to West Ham,WIgan and West Brom ended any chance of that happening.No criticism was aimed at Kenny which was understandable but only to a degree given some of his tactical decisions. Kenny took over a team in problems with new inexperienced owners and his second half of the season results reads WON 11 LOST 7 DRAWN 5 which isn't really anything special. We even went out of the EL to Braga.Was Kenny's second half of the season performance really that impressive or were we just happy to see the back of H & G and Hodgson?

Kenny has behaved like a man under very serious pressure and does not look very well.His media peformances at times have been somewhat off the wall! I know he regards his job as unfinished business but is it really doing his health any favours. He looks as if he has aged ten years in the last 15 months!

Forget about the cup runs,in the last 11 Premiership games we have WON 2 DRAWN 2 AND LOST 7 which simply isn't acceptable. If it was anybody else other than Kenny.....

A lot of truth in that... also, hes come back into a game in England which is very very different to the one he left in the 1990s. If you finished 2nd or 5th there was no difference.. that aint the case today. The necessity to finish top 4 or be left behind didnt exist. The media coverage back then was nothing like it is today.. 24 hour coverage, tv, radio, online.. and the media is something Kenny has never been comfortable with. The standard of the league due to the influx of top foreign makes it a completely different one to the 1990s. Kenny got the job purely because of his association with us, he didnt get it on recent managerial merits... he was never linked to any job as he wasn't considered. He was on a boat relaxing himsel.... and for his own good that is perhaps where he should have stayed

by **andy_g** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:08 pm

D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:52 pm

D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in. They sanctioned over 100million in deals, 75m on midtable level british players. They have allowed some of the worst deals in British history to take place. Their complete ignorance of the sport and value of player (they hired Commoli as they hadn't a clue) has allowed money to be squandered. Imagine Kenny asking David Dein for 55 million for carroll and henderson. Dein would looked at his position as manager.

My biggest concern is F.S.G. Their inexperience and lack of knowledge of the game, of player value.. has allowed a wacky spending spree on pap to occur. We can blame Kenny or Commoli for signing Carroll, but ultimately its the people that run the club that take responsibility as its them who sanction the deals. We have owners who dont know the game.

What kind of relationship would there be between the owners and the management if they, the management, identified a player to sign who was within budget, only for the owners to reject the deal because, in their judgment, the deal was not value for money?

Overruling the manager in that way would undermine his position and his ability to get on with the job in a way that he sees fit to bring success to the club. If he accepts that decisions on transfers can be overruled, then why not decisions about tactics? If Kenny selects Andy Carroll, is JW Henry justified, in all his footballing wisdom, to phone up and overrule him?

By all means the owners should scrutinise every proposed deal and hold the manager to account over his transfer record, because that's sensible practice, but to go beyond that and remove the manager's right to have the final say on any deal that falls within his budget doesn't strike me as sensible way to manage the club

by **tubby** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:24 pm

I think if you take Downing, Henderson, Adam, Carroll and look at how they performed for their clubs last season stats will show they were all influential for their respective clubs. Unfortunatley not 1 of them has been able to bring their form of last season to Liverpool. Based on their stats at the time they probably seemed like a good fit.

by **D___C** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:37 pm

LFC2007 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:52 pm wrote:What kind of relationship would there be between the owners and the management if they, the management, identified a player to sign who was within budget, only for the owners to reject the deal because, in their judgment, the deal was not value for money?

Overruling the manager in that way would undermine his position and his ability to get on with the job in a way that he sees fit to bring success to the club. If he accepts that decisions on transfers can be overruled, then why not decisions about tactics? If Kenny selects Andy Carroll, is JW Henry justified, in all his footballing wisdom, to phone up and overrule him?

By all means the owners should scrutinise every proposed deal and hold the manager to account over his transfer record, because that's sensible practice, but to go beyond that and remove the manager's right to have the final say on any deal that falls within his budget doesn't strike me as sensible way to manage the club

Would David Dein sanction 55 million on henderson and carroll? Not a prayer. The deals were so surreal, so absurd (particularly carroll) that any owner with even a semblence of nous would have immediately scoffed at the the merest suggestion. Henry only realised the blunder after the astonishment to the deal, and came out with some defence (Torres money, 15m more than him etc etc). He got badly burnt because of ignorance.

If the owners are not competent, how can they appoint the right manager?, sanction deals for the right players? The whole Suarez affair and the absense of any leadership at the club was a disgrace. We were dragged through the mud for weeks because we had no-one running the club. Thus far Kenny looks like a poor appointment, while the british signings will make any list of worst transfer deals ever. We bought Peter Crouch, a better player than Andy Carroll, for 7million.. and even at that time there were those among us who thought it was quite a steep fee. An inferior player was signed for five times that, a player in the open market for 2 million pound 16 months earier (prior to a season in the championship), it was a disgraceful transaction. Questions have to be asked about the running of the club.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:06 am

At this time i couldn't care less about our league form, nor do I particularly wish to play in the Europa league, all I want Kenny and the players to o is focus all their attention on the FA cup. We need to win the cup, Kenny needs to, and then at the end of the season Kenny needs to decide whether he can or cannot do the role justice, and this must coincide with making a decision on his signings.

by **spiceboys2014** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:15 am

On the positive side, I feel that we dont need a whole new team to turn our fortunes. 4 maybe 5 quality signings, with Lucas still to cone back.

I think this formula always works in football.....
Quality = Consistency.

Thats why city are sat near top. They got cream of prem talent, milner, barry, toure, nasri, etc. Plus aguero, dzeko tevez, yaya toure.

Notice they bought yaya toure from Barcelona and not Blackpool, Villa or Sunderland?
Ring a bell?

It mirrors what abramovich did when he bought Chelsea and they players they brought in.

We need to break the bank unfortunately. But di we give Kenny the cash?

by **LFC2007** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:44 am

D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:37 pm wrote:Would David Dein sanction 55 million on henderson and carroll? Not a prayer. The deals were so surreal, so absurd (particularly carroll) that any owner with even a semblence of nous would have immediately scoffed at the the merest suggestion. Henry only realised the blunder after the astonishment to the deal, and came out with some defence (Torres money, 15m more than him etc etc). He got badly burnt because of ignorance.

If the owners are not competent, how can they appoint the right manager?, sanction deals for the right players? The whole Suarez affair and the absense of any leadership at the club was a disgrace. We were dragged through the mud for weeks because we had no-one running the club. Thus far Kenny looks like a poor appointment, while the british signings will make any list of worst transfer deals ever. We bought Peter Crouch, a better player than Andy Carroll, for 7million.. and even at that time there were those among us who thought it was quite a steep fee. An inferior player was signed for five times that, a player in the open market for 2 million pound 16 months earier (prior to a season in the championship), it was a disgraceful transaction. Questions have to be asked about the running of the club.

If David Dein would have responded by blocking those two deals then he would have been placing his own personal judgment about the ability and suitability of those players ahead of the manager's, and that undermines the manager's authority. How can Kenny capably manage the team if the owners overrule his transfer decisions? And if they did, who's to say the owners wouldn't refuse to sign a player who went on to become a valuable player at another club? The manager trains the team, he manages the players, he sets the tactics, and he is therefore best placed to make those decisions, not some executive. In your world of perfect knowledge, any decision on a transfer would be an easy judgment to make, but in reality they are often tough calls to make.

If the owners were prepared to back the manager to the extent they did, they should have been prepared to accept his judgment on transfers. If he makes mistakes, the owners should take that into account the next time the manager asks to strengthen the squad. If, after however long, they still aren't satisfied with the progress being made, then they should get a new manager. Simple as that.

by **7_Kewell** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:53 am

Can someone explain why the hell we played with just 1 striker. At home, to Wigan??

Shocking

by **fivecups** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:56 am

andy_g » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:08 pm wrote:
D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:59 am

D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:
Boxscarf » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:35 pm wrote:I've got a feeling that Kenny will step down at the end of the season, because those players in his squad are not performing for themselves, for him or for us supporters. Over the last two months we've reverted back to the Hodgson days and seeing this squad cost over £100m to assemble, that's just embarrassing. Our attack has never been fantastic this season, but we were always solid in defence, the problem is we're not even solid in defence anymore, Skrtel (our best defender this season) has gone off the boil and the likes of Carragher just aren't good enough.

F.S.G must be wondering what the hell has happened and where has their money gone. If I was John Henry I would be asking myself "just how much more hundreds of millions do I have to invest in the club to get it to the level it was four years ago"? I knew Wigan would get something out of the match and fair play to them, I hope Roberto Martinez's team stay up and play top flight football next season. At least his players show an ounce of passion, grit and determination on the pitch. Players like Henderson and Downing should take note.

F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in. They sanctioned over 100million in deals, 75m on midtable level british players. They have allowed some of the worst deals in British history to take place. Their complete ignorance of the sport and value of player (they hired Commoli as they hadn't a clue) has allowed money to be squandered. Imagine Kenny asking David Dein for 55 million for carroll and henderson. Dein would looked at his position as manager.

My biggest concern is F.S.G. Their inexperience and lack of knowledge of the game, of player value.. has allowed a wacky spending spree on pap to occur. We can blame Kenny or Commoli for signing Carroll, but ultimately its the people that run the club that take responsibility as its them who sanction the deals. We have owners who dont know the game.

is this the same david dein that the arsenal board got rid of after he seriously wanted arsenal to use the new wembley as their home ground and not the emirates? your general point about f.s.g is correct though, from the outset they wanted stats involved in player recruitment because they had seen it work in baseball, thats why they took the trouble to speak to billy beane and thats why when he recommened comoli they hired him. beane recommended comoli because he knew comoli was big into stats and a believer in this moneyball malarky.

by **D___C** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:23 am

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:59 am wrote:
D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in. They sanctioned over 100million in deals, 75m on midtable level british players. They have allowed some of the worst deals in British history to take place. Their complete ignorance of the sport and value of player (they hired Commoli as they hadn't a clue) has allowed money to be squandered. Imagine Kenny asking David Dein for 55 million for carroll and henderson. Dein would looked at his position as manager.

My biggest concern is F.S.G. Their inexperience and lack of knowledge of the game, of player value.. has allowed a wacky spending spree on pap to occur. We can blame Kenny or Commoli for signing Carroll, but ultimately its the people that run the club that take responsibility as its them who sanction the deals. We have owners who dont know the game.

is this the same david dein that the arsenal board got rid of after he seriously wanted arsenal to use the new wembley as their home ground and not the emirates? your general point about f.s.g is correct though, from the outset they wanted stats involved in player recruitment because they had seen it work in baseball, thats why they took the trouble to speak to billy beane and thats why when he recommened comoli they hired him. beane recommended comoli because he knew comoli was big into stats and a believer in this moneyball malarky.

Its the same David Dein that appointed Wenger when the whole world said "Wenger who", and proceeded to win three Premiership titles and four FA Cups, spending less money than us during that time. The same David Dein who left Arsenal, who have gone to sh1t and been rudderless off the field since. Contrast his contribution to Arsenal to those with us, could not be starker.

by **Thommo's perm** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:44 am

Kerry
Any points you have (and I agree with some of them) are then lost with your obsessive ciriticism and your use of sh'it examples to prove your point.
Theres no doubting that the owners will be concerned at our alarming loss of form in the league, but like Shankley said, they are only there to sign the cheques.
We the fans are far more important and it is us who will have to get behind the manager and the team in this time of disappointment and fear. We are playing badly as a team and you constantly repeating that its Carrolls fault shows that you are clueless to whats going on. This makes me question whether you are a Liverpool supporter at all because your glee at our demise is disturbing to say the least, "A dog with a bone" is an understatement as far as how overjoyed you are to tell us how right you are and put the boot in. Even if you are correct with your assumptions it comes across that you are actually revelling in the fact that we are struggling at the moment.
We get it Kerry.
Stop rubbing it in for fu'cks sake
:no

by **7_Kewell** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:05 pm

the biggest problem is our tactics. Take yesterday, for example, we played just one striker against Wigan at Anfield.....our whole approach is negative and defensive minded, hence no more than one or two of our players ever get into the box. That's why we're not scoring goals...Kenny's negative approach has strangled the creativity out of our game.
He can blame injuries, match congestions, Sky TV and everyone else for his failings...but ultimately it’s his tactics that are mostly to blame.

by **heimdall** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:17 pm

D___C » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm wrote:
Boxscarf » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:35 pm wrote:I've got a feeling that Kenny will step down at the end of the season, because those players in his squad are not performing for themselves, for him or for us supporters. Over the last two months we've reverted back to the Hodgson days and seeing this squad cost over £100m to assemble, that's just embarrassing. Our attack has never been fantastic this season, but we were always solid in defence, the problem is we're not even solid in defence anymore, Skrtel (our best defender this season) has gone off the boil and the likes of Carragher just aren't good enough.

F.S.G must be wondering what the hell has happened and where has their money gone. If I was John Henry I would be asking myself "just how much more hundreds of millions do I have to invest in the club to get it to the level it was four years ago"? I knew Wigan would get something out of the match and fair play to them, I hope Roberto Martinez's team stay up and play top flight football next season. At least his players show an ounce of passion, grit and determination on the pitch. Players like Henderson and Downing should take note.

F.S.G are largely culpable for the situation we find ourselves in. They sanctioned over 100million in deals, 75m on midtable level british players. They have allowed some of the worst deals in British history to take place. Their complete ignorance of the sport and value of player (they hired Commoli as they hadn't a clue) has allowed money to be squandered. Imagine Kenny asking David Dein for 55 million for carroll and henderson. Dein would looked at his position as manager.

My biggest concern is F.S.G. Their inexperience and lack of knowledge of the game, of player value.. has allowed a wacky spending spree on pap to occur. We can blame Kenny or Commoli for signing Carroll, but ultimately its the people that run the club that take responsibility as its them who sanction the deals. We have owners who dont know the game.

So it's FSG's fault because they didn't micromanage kenny, now I've heard it all. Any owners or bosses have to believe their employees otherwise why hire them. I agree that they made a mistake in hiring Daglish though, I think he is now possibly worse than Woy, certainly our current run is nothing short of a catastrophe and why the hell carra is anywhere near the teamsheet is a complete mystery to me, he is a complete joke of a defender these days, so much that he's making Skyrtel play bad as well.

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