Liverpool FC Forum

Kerry07 wrote:You left out a word in your sentence.. Newcastle are proof of what you get by sticking by good players.

Both Collocini and Guitierrez had pedigree before they came to England. Collocini was highly touted since he was a kid at Boca and went to AC Milan, then had a very succesful spell for Deportivo in la liga. Guitierrez has over 20 caps for Argentina (look at the quality they can choose from in midfield).

stmichael wrote:

Kerry07 wrote:You left out a word in your sentence.. Newcastle are proof of what you get by sticking by good players.

Both Collocini and Guitierrez had pedigree before they came to England. Collocini was highly touted since he was a kid at Boca and went to AC Milan, then had a very succesful spell for Deportivo in la liga. Guitierrez has over 20 caps for Argentina (look at the quality they can choose from in midfield).

I think Lucas is a better example. Would you have said he was "good enough" two years ago?

This is a guy who was voted best young player in Brazil, was getting picked by for the senior aquad on a regular basis and yet was getting booed by some morons at home games.

Now look at him. He was always a good player. He just took a while to acclimatise like other South American players. He's now one of the first names on our team sheet and the best in his role/position in the League.

Johnny Boy wrote:

Raoul wrote:As far as Henderson goes, it is obvious to me that there is a very good player in there. My only concern about him is whether he has the passion to reach his undoubted potential. He plays without any real sense of urgency or fire. Without that, he'll never be worth the 20 mill we paid, he'll never reach his potential.

I think Henderson is a man management question. Kenny bought him, now it is up to him to help Henderson find the passion and fire he needs to become a very good, if not great, player.

But I'll admit to being very concerned. If Henderson had shown any of the drive of someone like Spearing, he'd already be one to get excited about...

I think he definitely has the passion, you can see the frustration and dissapointment on his face when he makes a mess of something.
If anything he is probably trying too hard to please.

I would like to see him get forward more.

stmichael wrote:

Kerry07 wrote:You left out a word in your sentence.. Newcastle are proof of what you get by sticking by good players.

Both Collocini and Guitierrez had pedigree before they came to England. Collocini was highly touted since he was a kid at Boca and went to AC Milan, then had a very succesful spell for Deportivo in la liga. Guitierrez has over 20 caps for Argentina (look at the quality they can choose from in midfield).

I think Lucas is a better example. Would you have said he was "good enough" two years ago?

This is a guy who was voted best young player in Brazil, was getting picked by for the senior aquad on a regular basis and yet was getting booed by some morons at home games.

Now look at him. He was always a good player. He just took a while to acclimatise like other South American players. He's now one of the first names on our team sheet and the best in his role/position in the League.

Greavesie wrote:

stmichael wrote:

Kerry07 wrote:You left out a word in your sentence.. Newcastle are proof of what you get by sticking by good players.

Both Collocini and Guitierrez had pedigree before they came to England. Collocini was highly touted since he was a kid at Boca and went to AC Milan, then had a very succesful spell for Deportivo in la liga. Guitierrez has over 20 caps for Argentina (look at the quality they can choose from in midfield).

I think Lucas is a better example. Would you have said he was "good enough" two years ago?

This is a guy who was voted best young player in Brazil, was getting picked by for the senior aquad on a regular basis and yet was getting booed by some morons at home games.

Now look at him. He was always a good player. He just took a while to acclimatise like other South American players. He's now one of the first names on our team sheet and the best in his role/position in the League.

If Newcastle fans had it their way Jonas and Collo would have been out the door years ago. The fans didn't think they had any ability at all. Collo was on par with Boumsong at one point, balls to pedigree, it proves nothing *points finger at Torres*

LFC2007 wrote:

Kerry07 wrote:I was a massive critic of Lucas because he was shocking (the Reading Cup loss at Anfield when their midfield ran rings around us was embarrassing). Lucas has been decent (having been moulded into a defensive player) and as hes got used to the role he has improved, but hes nowhere near the class of Hamann/Mascherano. We miss him because we dont have another holding player at the club.

We bought him as, quote, "an attacking midfielder"...but it became apparent early on he couldnt cut in that role in the Premiership. Série A in Brazil is much much slower, less running required so the demands are much lower. Because he couldn't do the same role here, he was then moulded into something else (a holding midfielder) and hes been decent (gets exposed against pace). He did have pedigree yes, but in a different role. We did similar with Kuyt. After banging in the goals for Feyenoord, he wasn't able to cut it upfront in the Premiership, so we pushed him out to right midfield due to his workrate and solidity in providing cover for the right back.

I think you're being somewhat begrudging in your praise for Lucas (and if I was to play Amateur-Freud, I'd suggest this might be because you were so adamant that he would never cut it). For as much as he may lack the extra gears that distinguished top class players like Mascherano, Lucas became, after much hard work and endless opportunities, a reliable holding player and was crucial to the improvements in the team over the past 6-12 months. He was not merely "decent" in that time but a rock at the heart of midfield and one of those important possession players that you like to refer to, without mentioning him directly (see the team that thrashed Fulham last season? ). Point is, we persisted with him and although it cost the team in the short-term, we eventually reaped the benefits.

Now, I'm not saying that we can afford to persist for so long and afford to bear this cost each time a new signing fails to make timely progress. Big clubs have less margin for error if they want to remain competitive so it's important that signings settle more quickly than at other clubs, especially where the club's squad is already relatively weak and where those new signings have a key role to play. The performances of Carroll, Downing and Henderson since they signed can attest to this. But though a lost opportunity, it's not out of the question that one or all of them could eventually perform a Lucas-like turnaround. Provided we can strengthen the squad in the attacking department to such an extent that we are capable of making the top four, then I don't see why it should be absolutely necessary to sell these players at the earliest opportunity. This is ultimately about balancing our short-term need to make the top four with the prospect of these players turning it around. We may very be able to 'carry' one or two of these players for a time to come, improve the squad further and make the top four.

devaney wrote:

Reg wrote:

stmichael wrote:just watching newcastle and they're proof of what you get for sticking by players, irrespective of price tags. i'm talking about guitierrez and collocini, who both would have been tarred with the "not good enough" brush 12-18 months ago and yet have come on leaps and bounds.

Lads,

The fans are always the last to see this happening.

We've become Chelsea. Players don't come here for teh football, they come for the money and once here, they don't feel they have to perform.

Newcastle, Swansea, Spurs players, they're hungry. Our lads aren't.

Couldn't disagree more. I would not tar every player with the same brush.Many of them are incredibly hard working professionals.Yes our expectations under Kenny have been very high especially after the second half of last season. With a little bit more luck and tactical awareness we could have quite easily have won at least 4 of the 7 drawn games at Anfield.That would actually put us 5 pints off the top.Ok I know that City have a game in hand but just look how rocky they have been recently and they have spent a net £500m over the last 5/6 years! Things are just not as bad as a lot of people are making out.As supporters we need to keep the faith.It was the supporters that demanded that Kenny was given the job.He was out of management for over 10 years and needs to be given a serious chance of improving our fortunes.The only real major concerns I have are Downing and Carroll.Henderson and Adam will improve.

LFC2007 wrote:

Kerry07 wrote:I was a massive critic of Lucas because he was shocking (the Reading Cup loss at Anfield when their midfield ran rings around us was embarrassing). Lucas has been decent (having been moulded into a defensive player) and as hes got used to the role he has improved, but hes nowhere near the class of Hamann/Mascherano. We miss him because we dont have another holding player at the club.

We bought him as, quote, "an attacking midfielder"...but it became apparent early on he couldnt cut in that role in the Premiership. Série A in Brazil is much much slower, less running required so the demands are much lower. Because he couldn't do the same role here, he was then moulded into something else (a holding midfielder) and hes been decent (gets exposed against pace). He did have pedigree yes, but in a different role. We did similar with Kuyt. After banging in the goals for Feyenoord, he wasn't able to cut it upfront in the Premiership, so we pushed him out to right midfield due to his workrate and solidity in providing cover for the right back.

I think you're being somewhat begrudging in your praise for Lucas (and if I was to play Amateur-Freud, I'd suggest this might be because you were so adamant that he would never cut it). For as much as he may lack the extra gears that distinguished top class players like Mascherano, Lucas became, after much hard work and endless opportunities, a reliable holding player and was crucial to the improvements in the team over the past 6-12 months. He was not merely "decent" in that time but a rock at the heart of midfield and one of those important possession players that you like to refer to, without mentioning him directly (see the team that thrashed Fulham last season? ). Point is, we persisted with him and although it cost the team in the short-term, we eventually reaped the benefits.

Now, I'm not saying that we can afford to persist for so long and afford to bear this cost each time a new signing fails to make timely progress. Big clubs have less margin for error if they want to remain competitive so it's important that signings settle more quickly than at other clubs, especially where the club's squad is already relatively weak and where those new signings have a key role to play. The performances of Carroll, Downing and Henderson since they signed can attest to this. But though a lost opportunity, it's not out of the question that one or all of them could eventually perform a Lucas-like turnaround. Provided we can strengthen the squad in the attacking department to such an extent that we are capable of making the top four, then I don't see why it should be absolutely necessary to sell these players at the earliest available opportunity. This is ultimately about balancing our short-term need to make the top four with the prospect of these players turning it around. We may very be able to 'carry' one or two of these players for a time to come, improve the squad further and make the top four.

red till i die!! wrote:most should bear in mind that lucas is almost 5 years here so it is about time he stepped up.
he has improved in all that time but not as much as most on here seem to think.
compare him to two other brazillians in ramires and sandro who are similar in age,play the same role and came with less hype and have had a much better impact in the prem than lucas in less than half the time.
while lucas has improved he still is far short of being world class.

crazyhorse wrote:yawn...

Half a season these lads have had and already they are getting slaughtered.

All of the new signings have shown bits of really good stuff. I still feel we will get good value out of all of them. With Hendo it will take a few more seasons but that was made loud and clear when we bought him. Adam is no veteran either.

This is what you get with discussion forums. People post opinions that sometimes they don't even believe in. They post them simply because they can. In a sense the opinion's artificial. It's created merely for the purpose of posting and so opinions, judgments and everything, they all come so much faster!

Enriqué: Awsome. Slotted right in and obviously has secured LB as his own.

Hendo: Hard to say just yet. He has quality, no doubt about it. My main worry is that sometimes I forget he's even on the pitch. Playing a quality ball and getting an assist is awsome, but it dosen't take long to do. What of the other 89 minutes? He looks to have beefed up though. I guess the coaching staff are working on his physical side.

Downing: Mehhhhh....the trouble with Downing is he forgets to put in the effort. He thinks that swinging his leg is all he has to do and that the quality of the cross will come automatically. Sheesh, ask Carroll abou that one.

Carroll: Let's not kid outselves. Carroll is as Heskey and Crouch. We never signed him for pace or dribbling or super finishing. If he can get his head right, he can be a good player for us.

Adam: Hmm, Adam's good, but he's missing too much from his game. natural qualities that can't be taught. A CM needs he most qualities of any player on the pitch. They need to defend and attack of course. Personally I believe that Adam has been one of our problems this season. He plays a great ball and we all go Ooooooooh! No question marks over his passing. His shooting though, tackling, positioning, pace, anticpiation and the list goes on. Too much missing.

They're all new players for us though and i'll support ANYONE who wears the Liverbird, and I will never ever spout hatred at them. You'll Never Walk Alone