Liverpool FC Forum

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:30 am

Guys, I have read a few threads of late, and people have been complaining that our strikers do not score enough, and that the partnerships employed by the gaffer are not going to work etc, so I have produced some stats to aid a discussion on the matter :

Arsenal 29 goals 9 games 3.22goals/game

Chelsea 8 goals 9 games 0.88goals/game

Man Utd 9 goals 9 games 1.00goals/game

Liverpool 14 goals 8 games 1.75goals/game

From what I can see, I dont see as to how we are having any big problems in the scoring of goals. I think that we should only measure ourselves against the teams that we consider out main rivals, I personally think that Arsenal, (especially if they win Sunday) are going to run away with the league again, so as opposed to Man U and Chelsea, we do come out on top.

Here is a list of the top scorers, (and hypothesis) to follow...

Henry (Arsenal) 8 goals 11 games 1.38 games/goal
Hasselbaink (Boro) 6 goals 9 games 1.29 games/goal
Shearer (Newcastle) 6 goals 10 games 1.67 games/goal
Pires (Arsenal) 6 goals 9 games 1.5 games/goal
Reyes (Arsenal) 6 goals 11 games 1.83 games/goal
Anelka (Man City) 6 goals 9 games 1.5 games/goal
Kluivert (Newcastle) 6 goals 8 games 1.33 games/goal
Drogba (Chelsea) 5 goals 10 games 2 games/goal
Smith (Man Utd) 5 goals 12 games 2.4 games/goal
Viduka (Boror) 5 goals 6 games 1.2 games/goal Defoe (Spurs) 4 goals 10 games 2.5 games/goal
Baros (Liverpool) 4 goals 12 games 3 games/goal
Ljungberg (Arsenal) 4 goals 9 games 2.25 games/goal
Van Nistelrooy (Man Utd) 4 goals 7 games 1.75 games/goal
Gerrard (Liverpool) 4 goals 8 games 2 games/goal
Berger (Portsmouth) 3 goals 9 games 3 games/goal
Mellberg (Villa) 3 goals 10 games 3.3 games/goal
Angel (Villa) 3 goals 9 games 3 games/goal
Cisse (Liverpool) 3 goals 12 games 4 games/goal
Huckerby (Norwich) 3 goals 10 games 3.33 games/goal

I would say that the games before a goal is scored figure for Cisse is too high for my liking, however to put it against that of some of the others, its simply due to the fact he has played more games, 4 goals from both our strikers is a decent return, if you presume that we will play around 48-60 games this season, that translates to 20 goals at least each, and that will do for me.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:46 am

Very interesting post Leon, well researched too. I always think the goals scored stats are somewhat distorted by penalties though. In our particular case, neither Baros nor Cisse are out and out goalscorers in my view. They both like to do some work in the build up play. Now before anyone puts my out and out goalscorer quote in a little box and tells me that Cisse was the top scorer in France for two years, I KNOW!
The point is in our team, in our league, I don't see either man bagging more than 11 or 12 goals in a season (premiership). That in itself is not a disaster as long as all along the midfield players chip in. Unfortunately, our midfield doesn't exactly look full of goals at the mo' so we may develop a problem.
One last thing, we have beaten a couple of lesser teams convincingly which would make the stats look better. Worryingly, against the better sides in the Premiership and Champions League goals have looked hard to come by. Strangely 'though, despite all the hysteria about zonal marking etc, defensively in the CL and against good sides in the league, we have looked quite solid. It's just gonna take time to pan out. Rafa is a great man for balance in a team and thats what we need. With our current midfield, we probably do need an out and out goalscorer. Whether that man is Morientes, Mista, Defoe or my own pick, Forsell (I know he's out for the season thanks) or somebody we don't even know about (by far the most likely) I trust Rafa to spend what little cash we have left wisely.

by **Redtribe** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:04 pm

Very good post Leon
I think that as the season progresses and the team gels and confidence buids then those stats will look even better!
We do need another forward as after Baros and Cisse the cupboard is pretty bare so i look forward to the next transfer window!

by **Red_Si** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:49 pm

bigmick wrote:Cisse was the top scorer in France for two years, I KNOW!

Yes, but he was playing in the French league against retarded apes and other creatures.

by **murphy0151** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:14 pm

bigmick wrote:Very interesting post Leon, well researched too. I always think the goals scored stats are somewhat distorted by penalties though. In our particular case, neither Baros nor Cisse are out and out goalscorers in my view. They both like to do some work in the build up play. Now before anyone puts my out and out goalscorer quote in a little box and tells me that Cisse was the top scorer in France for two years, I KNOW!
The point is in our team, in our league, I don't see either man bagging more than 11 or 12 goals in a season (premiership). That in itself is not a disaster as long as all along the midfield players chip in. Unfortunately, our midfield doesn't exactly look full of goals at the mo' so we may develop a problem.
One last thing, we have beaten a couple of lesser teams convincingly which would make the stats look better. Worryingly, against the better sides in the Premiership and Champions League goals have looked hard to come by. Strangely 'though, despite all the hysteria about zonal marking etc, defensively in the CL and against good sides in the league, we have looked quite solid. It's just gonna take time to pan out. Rafa is a great man for balance in a team and thats what we need. With our current midfield, we probably do need an out and out goalscorer. Whether that man is Morientes, Mista, Defoe or my own pick, Forsell (I know he's out for the season thanks) or somebody we don't even know about (by far the most likely) I trust Rafa to spend what little cash we have left wisely.

I quite like that Dean Bodwitch, every time I have seem him he as impressed me. Hes a youngster who is only going to get better plus, we wont need to brake the bank to get him. He can shoot with either peg left, right it dont matter.

by **spud** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:17 pm

Good post Leon

by **kindaconfused** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:18 pm

Leonmc0708

Good post (and I was looking for goals scored myself but hadn't found them so thanks) but allow me to try and balance the discussion.

The issue is that the figures are distored, both Chelsea and Mancs are struggling to score goals themselves and if you take the flukes out from Fulham then it changes the figures dramatically.

So I guess I'm saying our goals are distorted on the high side due to Fulham and Chelsea and Mancs are also low so at the end of the day the sats show us doing better than we are.

OK OK you say a goal is a goal is a goal which is correct but using the stats to say we are doing OK shows its downfall, you need to use personal judgement as well.

I'm sure the stats will convince those who think we are doing Ok that they are right and those of whose who have concerns that they are also right!

Kindaconfuzed or what!

by **A.B.** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:22 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Guys, I have read a few threads of late, and people have been complaining that our strikers do not score enough, and that the partnerships employed by the gaffer are not going to work etc, so I have produced some stats to aid a discussion on the matter :

Arsenal 29 goals 9 games 3.22goals/game

Chelsea 8 goals 9 games 0.88goals/game

Man Utd 9 goals 9 games 1.00goals/game

Liverpool 14 goals 8 games 1.75goals/game

From what I can see, I dont see as to how we are having any big problems in the scoring of goals. I think that we should only measure ourselves against the teams that we consider out main rivals, I personally think that Arsenal, (especially if they win Sunday) are going to run away with the league again, so as opposed to Man U and Chelsea, we do come out on top.

Here is a list of the top scorers, (and hypothesis) to follow...

Henry (Arsenal) 8 goals 11 games 1.38 games/goal
Hasselbaink (Boro) 6 goals 9 games 1.29 games/goal
Shearer (Newcastle) 6 goals 10 games 1.67 games/goal
Pires (Arsenal) 6 goals 9 games 1.5 games/goal
Reyes (Arsenal) 6 goals 11 games 1.83 games/goal
Anelka (Man City) 6 goals 9 games 1.5 games/goal
Kluivert (Newcastle) 6 goals 8 games 1.33 games/goal
Drogba (Chelsea) 5 goals 10 games 2 games/goal
Smith (Man Utd) 5 goals 12 games 2.4 games/goal
Viduka (Boror) 5 goals 6 games 1.2 games/goal Defoe (Spurs) 4 goals 10 games 2.5 games/goal
Baros (Liverpool) 4 goals 12 games 3 games/goal
Ljungberg (Arsenal) 4 goals 9 games 2.25 games/goal
Van Nistelrooy (Man Utd) 4 goals 7 games 1.75 games/goal
Gerrard (Liverpool) 4 goals 8 games 2 games/goal
Berger (Portsmouth) 3 goals 9 games 3 games/goal
Mellberg (Villa) 3 goals 10 games 3.3 games/goal
Angel (Villa) 3 goals 9 games 3 games/goal
Cisse (Liverpool) 3 goals 12 games 4 games/goal
Huckerby (Norwich) 3 goals 10 games 3.33 games/goal

I would say that the games before a goal is scored figure for Cisse is too high for my liking, however to put it against that of some of the others, its simply due to the fact he has played more games, 4 goals from both our strikers is a decent return, if you presume that we will play around 48-60 games this season, that translates to 20 goals at least each, and that will do for me.

Great post. Some are disapointed with the fact that Baros and Cisse are not scoring a lot but give them a chance before you write them off. It will take more than 11 games for them to gel. I couldn't care who scores or how many goals they score, all that matters to me is that we win games.

by **Redrider** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:29 pm

What the stats don't pick up is that Chelsea have a high points to goals ratio, that is they are winning their games by a single goal all the time.
Making very effective use of the goals scored.
In the key matches, man u, chelsea, Olympiacos, Deportivo, we are firing blanks and not picking up the points. That's the problem. When the chip's are down the strikers can't deliver.

by **A.B.** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:48 pm

I think you are forgeting some things. Olympiacos had a very solid defence and Deportivo played defencively through out the whole game very well. Manchester United's back four were boosted by the return of Rio Ferdinand.

There are reasons why our strikers didn't do as well as they should had. Baros had a good game against Deportivo but just could not find the net, thats how things are in football.

by **Redrider** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:00 pm

AB, that's my point, when they are faced with tough defences or difficult situations, then 'no cigar' !!
Top class strikers rise to the challenge, Dalglish, Rush, Fowler, Owen etc. we have had them, we ain't got them now.
We have all been fed the guff about Cisse great signing, £14m, Top scorer in France, like sh!t off a shovel etc. Then when we get him running out in the Red Shirt, the lad looks ordinary !!
We are definitely lightweight up front, MO leaving at the start of the season did not help, but I do not see us having an attacking force to worry any half decent Premiership Defences, never mind a top Champions League outfit.

by **A.B.** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:04 pm

Give the lads more time. If they can gel the right way they will be a great force up front.

by **kindaconfused** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:36 am

AB

The point is how often have we heard this about Baros, give hime more time. If it wasn't for the Europeans I dont think we would be saying it at all.

Which comes to the point of why he was so successful in Portugal but not on the English stage, whats the difference?

by **begintoend** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:55 am

If some of us aren't that satisfied with our strikers, than who shall we get than?

Shevchenko? Ronaldo?
The price could be infinity.

Do you pay for them? You grumbling chaps....

I am happy with what LFC have. The strikers will prove themselves well later in the season. I thought the supply of chances were not consistent too. Maybe when Gerrard comes back, the midfield and strike force will tick better. Else, I think we are doing really fine.

We have talk about goals, but I am worried about our defense too.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:29 am

kindaconfused wrote:The issue is that the figures are distored, both Chelsea and Mancs are struggling to score goals themselves and if you take the flukes out from Fulham then it changes the figures dramatically.

So I guess I'm saying our goals are distorted on the high side due to Fulham and Chelsea and Mancs are also low so at the end of the day the sats show us doing better than we are.

Man United scored two goals from handballs, so shall we chalk them off, and also one of Chelsea's was off the side of John Terry's head, so that does not count either??

Get real, if you scored a goal that bounced off your @rse in the last minute of the FA cup Final with the scores tied, would you "not count" that one? Didnt think so.

The point of my post and starting the thread was to highlight the fact that we are not losing games/points just cus we cant score goals.

I did not say that we are the 2nd best team just cus we score more goals than Chelsea and Manu U this term. I simply wanted to put to bed the argument that we where not playing better and winning more games cus we are not scoring enough.

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