Liverpool FC Forum

by **metalhead** » Tue May 03, 2011 9:55 am

Excellent article by Robert Fisk

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-was-he-betrayed-of-course-pakistan-knew-bin-ladens-hiding-place-all-along-2278
028.html]http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion....28.html[/url]

Sorry I'm still using my phone

by **lakes10** » Tue May 03, 2011 10:03 am

so it turns out that he used HIS WIFE AS A SHELD, i take it that he was thinking that as he had a few other it did not matter.

i dont think we will see the full video of the killing, but small clips will come out.

what is more hard to understand is the part Pakistan has in this, lets face it he was in a building under five years old with 18ft walls and yards from an army base!!!!

by **dawson99** » Tue May 03, 2011 10:15 am

his wife used herself as a shield, but potatoes potatoes (you know what i mean)

by **laza** » Tue May 03, 2011 10:39 am

lakes10 wrote:so it turns out that he used HIS WIFE AS A SHELD, i take it that he was thinking that as he had a few other it did not matter.

Three other men and a woman lay dead after the raid, but no Americans were killed. Bin Laden's wife, originally thought killed, was only wounded. The woman killed in the raid was not used as a human shield by the al Qaeda leader before his death, a U.S. official said, correcting an earlier description.

Reuter

Im sure it will also be reported that he horns on his head, kiddie porn on his PC and Justin Bieber CD in his stereo

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:10 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
Kenny Kan wrote:
tubby wrote:Kenny Kan the problem is that all the fundamentalists and people looking for an agenda with Islam misinterpret the Koran. Not only that but kids are taught this way and grow up not knowing any better.

So the prophet Muhammad wasn't a warrior and led 77 offensive battles in which he slayed and gloried in the killing of non-believers and non-conformers? And condones the killing of non-Muslim believers?

If I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen i.e to MetalHead, obviously he interprets it moderately. But I believe it is still there in the Koran stating such acts.

Hence the reason of killing Bin Laden won't quell other orthodox Islamics, the followers of the faith are not listening to one man like him. As MH said they are on their own, splinter cells, separate entities, their guidance and belief comes from the Koran.

It's not like killing Adolf Hitler and the German army surrendering. The German's (most of followed Hitler's ideals) certain Islamics follow the Koran's ideals, not Bin Laden's.

I'd be interested in your views of Christianity.

Christianity led three crusades into Jerusalem that results in the massacres of many innocent men, women and children. Additionally it speaks of the destruction of the wicked. Wicked implying anyone who isn't a Christian believer.

Islam does have more elements of religious militancy that Chriostianity but the vast majority of Muslims do not interpret that as the norm for life.

The problem I see you falling into is stereotyping. You argue that because the Koran uses violent rhetoric and there have been instances of religious terrorism that ALL Muslims and and ALL of Islam must be extremists. Whereas that couldn't be further from the truth.

Obviously you haven't read any of my recent posts, thus you're too eager to catergorise me, before actually having some kind of ''sensible'' discussion, which invariably means you're the tool Mr ''SouthCoastShankly'' lol

I'm not excusing or denying any of Christianities short comings and won't deny it. But what you can't seem to get your PC head around is, Jesus forgives thy enemy or something along those lines and doesn't tell followers to kill non-conformists, the Koran does. Do you get my point now or are you still on that pedestal of yours?

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:14 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Kenny Kan wrote:
tubby wrote:Kenny Kan the problem is that all the fundamentalists and people looking for an agenda with Islam misinterpret the Koran. Not only that but kids are taught this way and grow up not knowing any better.

So the prophet Muhammad wasn't a warrior and led 77 offensive battles in which he slayed and gloried in the killing of non-believers and non-conformers? And condones the killing of non-Muslim believers?

If I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen i.e to MetalHead, obviously he interprets it moderately. But I believe it is still there in the Koran stating such acts.

Hence the reason of killing Bin Laden won't quell other orthodox Islamics, the followers of the faith are not listening to one man like him. As MH said they are on their own, splinter cells, separate entities, their guidance and belief comes from the Koran.

It's not like killing Adolf Hitler and the German army surrendering. The German's (most of followed Hitler's ideals) certain Islamics follow the Koran's ideals, not Bin Laden's.

Kenny you ain't gonna win this one. You can't say ALL or anything are bad. There are good muslems, bad muslems, there are good catholics, bad catholics. Muhammed was a warrior, but so were half of the old testement.

Ask a Jehovahs witness what will happen to you even if you are a good person but are not with them, you will go to hell.

Go to a church of jesus christ sermon and see what they are like. I went to one, a woman had lost a baby about a day after giving b birth, she said the baby was in hell as it wasnt christened or whatever possibly. The whole sermon were cheering, as was she, it was mental.

I have muslem freinds who are the nicest people in the world. To band them all together is just naieve and uneducated. If you read the Koran (I'm no expert but know my stuff) then you will know there are different translations, as there are with all holy books.

According to the Westboro Baptist Church, God is a mean mofo, and that aint true...

I haven't ''banded them altogether'' you beautiful banana, stop being lazy and read what I have actually said instead of going off onto some f.ucking tangent and talking bollox like you usually do.

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:19 pm

Anyway, I'll wait for MH to ''put me right'' on 'Muhammad as the warrior of all things Islam', nobody else has come up with a valid point, let or lone an argument, hence they're jumping on the bandwagon, surprise surprise.

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:33 pm

There is a difference between WHAT the Koran says and WHAT the people do with it.

I maintain Islam isn't a peaceful religion as it states the killing if non-believers & conformists. What or how Muslim people do with it is a different matter. There are millions of moderate Muslims, there are extremists too but these extremists are orthodox, carrying out everything the Koran preaches.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M IMPLYING NOW?

by **dawson99** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:37 pm

Kenny Kan wrote:There is a difference between WHAT the Koran says and WHAT the people do with it.

I maintain Islam isn't a peaceful religion as it states the killing if non-believers & conformists. What or how Muslim people do with it is a different matter. There are millions of moderate Muslims, there are extremists too but these extremists are orthodox, carrying out everything the Koran preaches.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M IMPLYING NOW?

yes, you are implying that a hole religion is violent, instead of a faction of that religion.

the extremists read wrong into the Koran, which is not a book of hate.

It is like the bible, it says things that are pointless, people know its rubbish... but the religion is not violent.

Genesis 38:9-10: “Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.” So pulling out sends us to hell?

Show me the extract from the Koran which says to kill, and I'll show you any religious book saying the same.

It's unfortunate that there are nutters all over the world, but you can't say one religion is wholly bad, thats just stupid.

by **dawson99** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:38 pm

heres one from the bible for you:

Deuteronomy 25:11-12.

“If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.”

So you are being attacked, your missus grabs his nuts, so you cut off HER hand. But the bible is not seen as violent?

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue May 03, 2011 12:55 pm

Yes Dawson it shows violence no denying it. However the Koran preaches violence against anyone who isn't Muslim, there is a fecking massive difference between a story ''according to John blah blah'' and the preaching of killing others who aren't muslim FFS>

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

Yes. Such a peaceful and holy religion.

Case rested.

by **dawson99** » Tue May 03, 2011 1:01 pm

but what about:

the Koran says: "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance. (16:125)." "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better (41:34)."

In Sura 73:10,11 Muhammad urges his followers to be patient toward those who deny the truth: "And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity). And leave me (alone to deal with) those in possession of the good things of life, who (yet) deny the truth, and bear with them for a little while."

The Extermination of the Canaanites is just a christian holy war, much like the Koran. All im saying is you can read everything into everything, scholars have been trying for 1000s of years with no luck, cant see us sorting it out this afternoon

(great retort from you, much to think about for all i guess)

by **tubby** » Tue May 03, 2011 1:11 pm

There was also something in the Bible about men being able to rape a women if she was her worker or something.....

It was in one of the Richard Dawkins progs, the god delusion or something similar.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Tue May 03, 2011 1:14 pm

Kenny Kan wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:
Kenny Kan wrote:
tubby wrote:Kenny Kan the problem is that all the fundamentalists and people looking for an agenda with Islam misinterpret the Koran. Not only that but kids are taught this way and grow up not knowing any better.

So the prophet Muhammad wasn't a warrior and led 77 offensive battles in which he slayed and gloried in the killing of non-believers and non-conformers? And condones the killing of non-Muslim believers?

If I'm wrong I'd be happy to listen i.e to MetalHead, obviously he interprets it moderately. But I believe it is still there in the Koran stating such acts.

Hence the reason of killing Bin Laden won't quell other orthodox Islamics, the followers of the faith are not listening to one man like him. As MH said they are on their own, splinter cells, separate entities, their guidance and belief comes from the Koran.

It's not like killing Adolf Hitler and the German army surrendering. The German's (most of followed Hitler's ideals) certain Islamics follow the Koran's ideals, not Bin Laden's.

I'd be interested in your views of Christianity.

Christianity led three crusades into Jerusalem that results in the massacres of many innocent men, women and children. Additionally it speaks of the destruction of the wicked. Wicked implying anyone who isn't a Christian believer.

Islam does have more elements of religious militancy that Chriostianity but the vast majority of Muslims do not interpret that as the norm for life.

The problem I see you falling into is stereotyping. You argue that because the Koran uses violent rhetoric and there have been instances of religious terrorism that ALL Muslims and and ALL of Islam must be extremists. Whereas that couldn't be further from the truth.

Obviously you haven't read any of my recent posts, thus you're too eager to catergorise me, before actually having some kind of ''sensible'' discussion, which invariably means you're the tool Mr ''SouthCoastShankly'' lol

I'm not excusing or denying any of Christianities short comings and won't deny it. But what you can't seem to get your PC head around is, Jesus forgives thy enemy or something along those lines and doesn't tell followers to kill non-conformists, the Koran does. Do you get my point now or are you still on that pedestal of yours?

Calm your face down dear.

FFS.

I am not attacking your right to an opinion. I am just saying I don't agree with it. It's an extreme minority view.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Tue May 03, 2011 1:16 pm

I don't care how they interpret it, how they read it, what they think of it or how they act on it ... as long as they don't do it in my country and they don't try ram it down my throat they can do what the fuk they like. I'm talking about the extremists here. they should concentrate more on killing each other and less on killing us. fuking morons.

Liverpool FC Forum

Osama bin ladin

Who is online