Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:57 pm

We need to have the confidence to knock the ball around between the midfield and defence while biding our time for the right opening. Sometimes it's OK to go forward and look for the instant counter attack, but a lot of the time it's better to just switch the play wide, switch it back again and so on, until it become sensible to make the riskier interchanges, or a cross into a dangerous area. We prefer to sit deep, only pressing in our own half - and deep in our own half - and dislike the thought of sustained spells of possession. When we do go forward, you see us play too many balls played into congested areas; to Kuyt when there's three players blocking his path, or to Torres when a defender/midfielder can see the pass coming a mile off. It's too easy to defend against and the idea of breaking a team down is to find players in space and get support up in the right areas. We have an odd group of players, too, which never helps. On the one hand you have the likes of Carragher, Lucas, Poulsen, Kuyt and Jovanovic who are, relatively speaking, sh!t in possession of the ball. They make too many poor decisions, are slow and their technical ability is of a Wigan Athletic standard. Then you have the likes of Agger, Cole, Meireles, Gerrard, Torres and Johnson, who as group are the complete antithesis. I suppose if you stuck Lucas in place of Fletcher and Kuyt in place of Nani, Man U would find it difficult to get their possession game going too.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:10 pm

Why doesn't bigmick talk about Roy's defensive philosophy like he talked about rotation last time?

by **Scottbot** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:35 pm

Not been a good day for me. Firstly having to sit through the worst 45 minutes of football I've ever witnessed at Anfield in 50 odd games and then my radiator overheats and frys the engine of me car on the M62 so i'm still stuck in Warrington with a busted car and need to get to work (220 miles away!) for 8.30 tomorrow morning!

Anyways, back to the game. Saw all I needed to see and my mind is made up. We're screwed with Hodgson, simple as that.

- Team selection all over the place again today, Mereilles is a cracking little player by the looks of things but he's absolutely wasted on the right hand side, what's he doing there?

- Got my first proper look at Poulsen, he's VERY slow, lacks mobility and simply isn't able to get around the pitch, a complete and utter passenger out there today. I'm not a fan of Lucas but most of the fans in the seats around me seemed to be of the opinion that Poulsen was complete cack and an inferior player to the Brazilian.

- There was a passage of play that summed it up for me today, can't remember who it was but it was about halfway through the first half and we managed to break forward with the ball down the right, our lad looked to square it into the box but we only had one player in there to their 3/4. I was absolutely screaming at the pitch/players (not that they could hear!) to get forward, to get in the box, I looked down to the touchline where Hodgson was standing and expected him to be doing the same but apparently he was perfectly happy with what he'd just seen.

- You don't win anything in this league playing 'softly softly catchy monkey', you have to go out there and take what is yours, especially if you're a big club. On the evidence we've seen so far Hodgson won't ever have us playing that way. We're letting teams like Blackpool knock the ball about at the back and that's not what Liverpool Football Club is all about. We don't press the ball, we're playing to deep, we're only throwing any caution to the wind ONCE we've gone behind in games. Hodgson talked about us starting the way we've finished some of our games but that is down to him and his methods on the training pitch. I was watching the movements of our players when we lost the ball today, everyone back to their station, all hands on deck, it tells you everything you need to know and we can't win in this league playing that way.

- If Hodgson has ANY intention of getting us back to playing some sort of offensive football then it HAS to start with pairing Gerrard and Mereilles in the centre of our midfield, that's where it all starts.

- I like Hodgson, always have, he's a real gent and I think his record is decent enough but I've lost faith already, on some levels I hate to vindicate the comments of the others on here who have been on the manager's back since before he walked in the door but having seen us play up close I'm struggling to see how we can dig ourselves out of this hole. The media will have a field day with this, remember the pressure on Martin Jol a couple of seasons back? Well triple it and then some.

- Radio City phone-ins after had every caller asking for Kenny to step in. It would feel a bit Newcastle desperate but I'd have no problem with it should it happen.

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:35 am

the most worrying thing is that our weaknesses are so glaring now that it doeasn't take a managerial genius to exploit them time and time again. we've got the bitters next who's strengths are even more suited to exploiting our current weaknesses.

by **JBG** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:34 am

I'd say that its the first time in 30 or 40 years where you could look at both teams and say, even allowing for poor form, player for player Everton have a better side than us.

True, we might be stronger (on paper) in some areas than them but overall they look to have a better squad than us at present.

Look at the bitters: they've had a woeful start to the season but they actually played very well in some of their defeats.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:38 am

Throwing the greek upfront and Raul at left back cause Carra was knackerd bringing on maxi with 3 minutes to go, Id say his tactics are fecking spot on.

by **Big Niall** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:39 pm

Ciggy wrote:Throwing the greek upfront and Raul at left back cause Carra was knackerd bringing on maxi with 3 minutes to go, Id say his tactics are fecking spot on.

Carras days are up, he shouldn't be in the team anymore. No doubt fans would give Roy stick for dropping a legend but time beats everyone.

by **tubby** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:06 pm

Taken from Tompkins recent article:

Biggest Error

And the biggest one of all: taking a team with players suited to pressing and rather than working with what he had, trying to reverse it. If anything was broken under Benítez, it was his relationship with Carragher and Gerrard, and one or two less-influential players.

The tactics were not the issue (look at how they were often successfully deployed at the World Cup) and maybe now people are seeing that.

Liverpool pressed high and hard – and fast from the start – and it suited Torres, Kuyt and Gerrard. It made it easier to create chances, because errors were forced. It gave the game some energy.

It now suits Samuel Eto’o at Inter: “With Mourinho we played on the counter-attack, with Benítez we press more and that’s better for us forwards because we win back the ball higher up the pitch and create more chances.”

Eto’o has 11 goals already this season, after just 16 last time. Torres has … one.

Last season I noted that Rafa was the only manager to get more than an average amount of goals from Torres. At the time, I wasn’t sure if it was just coincidence, or maybe due to the very detailed and specific advice Rafa gave him (which Torres said was incredible). Now, I’m starting to think it was mostly tactical.

Torres’ goal record in Spain was not the best; consistent, yes, but never above 13 from open play in a season (in one year he scored six additional goals from the spot). For Spain, it’s a decent international record, but not outstanding. For Liverpool under Hodgson, it’s … one goal in nine games.

Now, he hasn’t been 100% fit. And it’s early days. But he wasn’t fully fit for large parts of the previous two seasons. And he still got 14 in 24, and 18 in 22, in those two Premier League campaigns. Often he was coming back from injury, but rarely did he look this out of sorts. Rarely was he so starved of service, so isolated; an island within Anfield.

Perhaps the new style of play doesn’t suit him? He’ll always be a great striker – pace, power, eye for all types of goal – but the tactics were always tailored to his strengths. Now it seems tailored to the strengths of Bobby Zamora.

Now, if Roy wants to change the team’s entire style, that’s down to him. But it could be argued that it would have made more sense to work with what he has (or for the club to employ someone to do so), in a way that suits the players, than force his ideas onto them; especially as he doesn’t have the money to buy those who’d fit better into his system. (Not being funny, but right now, Emile Heskey would probably be better at what Torres is being asked to do.)

The style – which Hodgson has made clear he’s carried with him for 35 years – is being forced onto the players. If it works, great. If it doesn’t? Buck. Stops. There

by **JBG** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:10 pm

bavlondon wrote:Taken from Tompkins recent article:

Biggest Error

And the biggest one of all: taking a team with players suited to pressing and rather than working with what he had, trying to reverse it. If anything was broken under Benítez, it was his relationship with Carragher and Gerrard, and one or two less-influential players.

The tactics were not the issue (look at how they were often successfully deployed at the World Cup) and maybe now people are seeing that.

Liverpool pressed high and hard – and fast from the start – and it suited Torres, Kuyt and Gerrard. It made it easier to create chances, because errors were forced. It gave the game some energy.

It now suits Samuel Eto’o at Inter: “With Mourinho we played on the counter-attack, with Benítez we press more and that’s better for us forwards because we win back the ball higher up the pitch and create more chances.”

Eto’o has 11 goals already this season, after just 16 last time. Torres has … one.

Last season I noted that Rafa was the only manager to get more than an average amount of goals from Torres. At the time, I wasn’t sure if it was just coincidence, or maybe due to the very detailed and specific advice Rafa gave him (which Torres said was incredible). Now, I’m starting to think it was mostly tactical.

Torres’ goal record in Spain was not the best; consistent, yes, but never above 13 from open play in a season (in one year he scored six additional goals from the spot). For Spain, it’s a decent international record, but not outstanding. For Liverpool under Hodgson, it’s … one goal in nine games.

Now, he hasn’t been 100% fit. And it’s early days. But he wasn’t fully fit for large parts of the previous two seasons. And he still got 14 in 24, and 18 in 22, in those two Premier League campaigns. Often he was coming back from injury, but rarely did he look this out of sorts. Rarely was he so starved of service, so isolated; an island within Anfield.

Perhaps the new style of play doesn’t suit him? He’ll always be a great striker – pace, power, eye for all types of goal – but the tactics were always tailored to his strengths. Now it seems tailored to the strengths of Bobby Zamora.

Now, if Roy wants to change the team’s entire style, that’s down to him. But it could be argued that it would have made more sense to work with what he has (or for the club to employ someone to do so), in a way that suits the players, than force his ideas onto them; especially as he doesn’t have the money to buy those who’d fit better into his system. (Not being funny, but right now, Emile Heskey would probably be better at what Torres is being asked to do.)

The style – which Hodgson has made clear he’s carried with him for 35 years – is being forced onto the players. If it works, great. If it doesn’t? Buck. Stops. There

I'm telling you that things must be genuinely and seriously bad when Paul Tompkins, the eternal "glass half full" man, has it in for Roy.

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:55 am

still far too defensive away from home. yesterday we had 11 men behind the ball at times. we're playing bolton for god's sake not real madrid. why do we bring everybody back for free kicks? i don't understand it. it means when the ball is cleared we have no outlet with which to counterattack.

i don't think it's a coincidence either that our performances have improved remearkably in games after we've put ngog up alongside torres and gone 4-4-2. this has to be a more regular feature now, especially at home against the so called lesser teams.

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:12 pm

There's been a fair bit of nonsense talked about yesterdays "performance". I think people need to remember that we were playing against a decent team who were unbeaten at Home this season, a team which had lost once all season. We are very fragile, very low on confidence, and as such making ourselves hard to beat has to be the sensible way to go.

Aside from the Davies header (for which Carragher did very well IMHO) they didn't make any clear cut chances, and we won 1-0. We are up to 12th, we continue to stutter but at least we can see the green shoots of some kind of recovery.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we won't play flowing football in either of the two games this week, but if we can avoid defeat in both and perhaps win one, the recovery will continue.

Things aren't looking quite as bad as they were a couple of weeks back (although admittedly that isn't saying much :laugh:

).

by **Ben Patrick** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:18 pm

stmichael wrote:still far too defensive away from home. yesterday we had 11 men behind the ball at times. we're playing bolton for god's sake not real madrid. why do we bring everybody back for free kicks? i don't understand it. it means when the ball is cleared we have no outlet with which to counterattack.

i don't think it's a coincidence either that our performances have improved remearkably in games after we've put ngog up alongside torres and gone 4-4-2. this has to be a more regular feature now, especially at home against the so called lesser teams.

I agree about the corners.
Its something we did under Rafa as well and its frustrating and puzzling.

Leave Torres up and the opposing team will be worried about him.
It also like you said means that we do have the possibility of hitting them on the counter.
Not exactly rocket science but Roy and Rafa are too cautious.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:48 pm

JBG wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Taken from Tompkins recent article:

Biggest Error

And the biggest one of all: taking a team with players suited to pressing and rather than working with what he had, trying to reverse it. If anything was broken under Benítez, it was his relationship with Carragher and Gerrard, and one or two less-influential players.

The tactics were not the issue (look at how they were often successfully deployed at the World Cup) and maybe now people are seeing that.

Liverpool pressed high and hard – and fast from the start – and it suited Torres, Kuyt and Gerrard. It made it easier to create chances, because errors were forced. It gave the game some energy.

It now suits Samuel Eto’o at Inter: “With Mourinho we played on the counter-attack, with Benítez we press more and that’s better for us forwards because we win back the ball higher up the pitch and create more chances.”

Eto’o has 11 goals already this season, after just 16 last time. Torres has … one.

Last season I noted that Rafa was the only manager to get more than an average amount of goals from Torres. At the time, I wasn’t sure if it was just coincidence, or maybe due to the very detailed and specific advice Rafa gave him (which Torres said was incredible). Now, I’m starting to think it was mostly tactical.

Torres’ goal record in Spain was not the best; consistent, yes, but never above 13 from open play in a season (in one year he scored six additional goals from the spot). For Spain, it’s a decent international record, but not outstanding. For Liverpool under Hodgson, it’s … one goal in nine games.

Now, he hasn’t been 100% fit. And it’s early days. But he wasn’t fully fit for large parts of the previous two seasons. And he still got 14 in 24, and 18 in 22, in those two Premier League campaigns. Often he was coming back from injury, but rarely did he look this out of sorts. Rarely was he so starved of service, so isolated; an island within Anfield.

Perhaps the new style of play doesn’t suit him? He’ll always be a great striker – pace, power, eye for all types of goal – but the tactics were always tailored to his strengths. Now it seems tailored to the strengths of Bobby Zamora.

Now, if Roy wants to change the team’s entire style, that’s down to him. But it could be argued that it would have made more sense to work with what he has (or for the club to employ someone to do so), in a way that suits the players, than force his ideas onto them; especially as he doesn’t have the money to buy those who’d fit better into his system. (Not being funny, but right now, Emile Heskey would probably be better at what Torres is being asked to do.)

The style – which Hodgson has made clear he’s carried with him for 35 years – is being forced onto the players. If it works, great. If it doesn’t? Buck. Stops. There

I'm telling you that things must be genuinely and seriously bad when Paul Tompkins, the eternal "glass half full" man, has it in for Roy.

It's a good article from Tomkins. To be fair to him he used to write very good articles before he got the job writing for the club and i'm guessing he is no longer connected because the last few articles I have read have been far more critical and much less on the fence than we've been used to.

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:03 pm

It'll be interesting to see the side against Chelsea next week. I doubt we'll see 2 upfront because Chelsea play 4-3-3 and if we go 4-4-2 we'll be outnumbered in there. However in upcoming games I'd like to see us committing more players forward when we get the chance.

When Ngog came on yesterday, it at least cloased the gap between our midfield (which basically sits in the middle of our own half these days) and "attack". Torres isn't entirely blameless but its pretty shocking the way he's being utilised at the moment.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:20 pm

bigmick wrote:There's been a fair bit of nonsense talked about yesterdays "performance". I think people need to remember that we were playing against a decent team who were unbeaten at Home this season, a team which had lost once all season. We are very fragile, very low on confidence, and as such making ourselves hard to beat has to be the sensible way to go.

Aside from the Davies header (for which Carragher did very well IMHO) they didn't make any clear cut chances, and we won 1-0. We are up to 12th, we continue to stutter but at least we can see the green shoots of some kind of recovery.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we won't play flowing football in either of the two games this week, but if we can avoid defeat in both and perhaps win one, the recovery will continue.

Things aren't looking quite as bad as they were a couple of weeks back (although admittedly that isn't saying much ).

Yes Mick but it would also be equally true to say playing a gritty determined game is where the current incumbent succeeds more than most ,that much is without question ,but its when the defensive shackles are taken off , that's when he fails to tick all the boxes can we play flowing football because albeit from the Blackburn game (who in all honesty were abysmal )I am yet to be convinced .... the Tompkins article is bang on the money for me, Torres is not suited to the role Roy is asking him to play it would suit Heskey more ..... read it mate its a sensible and well drafted piece
I do however agree Yesterdays performance was a war of attrition it wasnt pretty ,but it was effective and Bolton is a notoriously hard venue to get three points

Liverpool FC Forum

Roy's Liverpool - How's it Evolving? - Set Up, Tactics, In-Depth Footy Chat

Who is online