Liverpool FC Forum

by **tel** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:24 pm

Konchesky has always been a 3rd rate left back. He made a numpty like Nani look like a figgn superstar.

That's how well Hodgon's team is evolving

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:30 pm

tel wrote:He made a numpty like Nani look like a figgn superstar.

To be fair Nani is a diving cheating little b@stard sh!thouse.

by **jacdaniel** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:34 pm

My observations so far.....

Goal: Reina is worldclass and as such, we have no problems in this area.

Defence: This is generally a managers first priority. We have a LOT of problems in this area at the minute. First of all, the LB and RB need to be pressuring a lot more and being in position to prevent crosses. The LM and RM will also be required to help. Johnson and Konchesky were very poor yesterday. We also need someone who can dominate in the air. perhaps the Greek would be the man?
We also need to try and use the ball better from the back. but that seems to be something the manager is not encouraging for now at least. (Agger interview). Roy seems to insist on playing Skrtel and i just can't see why. Finally, the man marking system was terrible yesterday. Why was Torres marking Berbatov and why did Konchesky drift off the post? id slot the Greek in there and make sure Johnson and Konchesky are pressing harder.

Midfield: Centre Mid looks fairly good with Poulsen, Gerrard and Meirles. Obviously 2 of them are new players so we'll have to wait and see. But centre mid is not a major issue for now. Out wide is were we are struggling. We seriously lack width. Yesterday, it looked to me as if Maxi and Cole had orders not to stay out wide.
Id start matches with a midfield 5 of Kuyt, poulsen, gerrard, meirles, cole. (And obviously try to sign a winger or 2 in Jan).

Forward: Torres needs to find his confidence again. Ngog has looked good so far. Hopefully we can get some back up possibly in Jan. (Doubtful i know).

Conclusion: A few tweaks to the defence, a bit more width and some more time to gel and i think we'd be doing a lot better. Easier said than done though

PS: Why are lots of people gone off Carra lately? he hasn't being half as bad as Skrtel.

by **Zidane** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:30 pm

I think our biggest problem is our back four, almost every single one of them is very suspect at one aspect or another. We have to compensate for a lot of it as well. Whether it's defensive positioning, aerial prowess, pace or just common sense they all have faults and on top of that our CBs do not compliment each other. As for Torres not getting service, it isn't so much to do with our CM's as much as it has to do with our lack of width. If there's no real wide threat it's easy to just congest the middle which is exactly where Torres is for the most part. We desperately need a wide player, we've missed Riera ever since he was getting injured/not being played last year. By now Carra's position as our starting CB should have been at least in doubt but if anything he's one of our sure starters every single match. Our back four, in particular our CBs and our lack of width are what makes us so vulnerable and so easy to defend against at times. It's been the same story for a really long time now, too... the width at least.

by **rocky29** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:11 am

the problem is we have average defenders sh"ite midfielders even more sh"ite wingers and a dis-interested striker apart from that were ok

by **Calum** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:36 am

Ciggy wrote:
tel wrote:He made a numpty like Nani look like a figgn superstar.

To be fair Nani is a diving cheating little b@stard sh!thouse.

You took the words right out of my mouth, Ciggy! The amount of times Nanci falls to the ground "in agony" is ridiculous. When he collided with one of our players (I can't remember who), he fell to the ground as if he was shot, just as we went on the attack that was subsequently stopped. The replay showed there was nothing in it. Yes, Nanci's a theatrical, cheating, slimy :censored:

! I loved how Agger squared up to him with hate in his eyes! We need more players with Agger's passion.

by **carmonkeycasino** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:24 am

Agger is the man, play him instead of Skrtel.

Too much possession given to opposition, reminds me of Houllier. Ugh.

by **The_Rock** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:41 am

Zidane wrote:I think our biggest problem is our back four, almost every single one of them is very suspect at one aspect or another.

You hit the nail.........everyone has their own kryptonite.

How abt this for the defence

Reina
Carra Greek Skertel Agger
(Lucas/Poulson)
****************rest if the team*************
Gerrard Raul Cole
(Kuyt/Babel/Johnovic) Torres

We ain't gonna concede much goals with this defensive lineup. The last time we played 4 centrebacks in a back four we won the treble (2001).

Westerweld
Babbel Henchoz Hyppia Carra

by **Raoul** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:35 am

sgs wrote:How are we evolving? Here's Daniel Agger's opinion:

Daniel Agger has admitted that he is frustrated by Roy Hodgson’s style of play at Liverpool.

The attack-minded defender will be eager to forget his brief cameo at Old Trafford yesterday after failing to prevent the cross that led to Dimitar Berbatov’s winning goal just two minutes after he had replaced Paul Konchesky at left-back.

Agger, who was also left out of the starting line-up against Birmingham City last weekend, has lifted the lid on his frustrations behind Hodgson’s approach to games and has refused to alter his natural game despite fears that it could see him overlooked for a regular place in the side.

He said: "The manager's philosophy is that we play football in attack, but not at the back. That's not my style.

“I'm not that type of player. I like to keep the ball on the ground, and that's what I'll keep doing. Time will show if he [Hodgson] doesn't want to play me because of that".

"I'll try to change myself, but I will never be a player who offloads the ball at every opportunity."

"I'll fight for my chance. I know what I stand for, and I think he [Hodgson] does too".

Do you have a link mate?

Doesn't sound like a smart comment from Agger if true.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:17 am

I think the evolution is an ongoing process, and it was bound to be so as Roy discovers the strengths and weaknesses of what he's got to work with. Clearly even some things were percieved as strengths, Torres for example, are nowhere near so strong currently as he would have hoped. Torres looks frankly lost as a lone front man at the moment, and my guess is we're going to have to re-formulate any plans we had pre season in order to take it into account.

Equally, Roy is discovering what has been known on here for quite a while, namely that we are weak at the back when we come under pressure. My guess is that he's also discovering that Skyrtel isn't that good, although I wish he'd hurry up and discover it so we can move on. In midfield, perhaps Roy watched some of the World Cup and thought maxi could offer something, but unfortunately I'm afraid Maxi suffers from Morientes syndrome, good player but unsuited.

So the evolution must be fluid. That Roy is missing one of his more consistent and reliable performers in Kuyt has been a loss for him, and that Torres is as far away from his best as he obviously is ditto. He has a huge task though does our new manager. Lifting any team from 7th into 4th is a massive ask, not made any easier by man City's continuing improvement. that is the job he's taken on though, and while failure to achieve it ought to be tolerated by sensible fans and board alike, failure to get anywhere near achieveing it probably wouldn't.

My guess is that we will improve and be right in with a shout, but that it will be very close. A surge from man City though would put us out of contention I think, as somewhere around 68-71 points would be our level if I was having a bet.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:55 am

Article from F365

Analysing Roy`s First Five Formations...
Posted 20/09/10 13:32

Fernando Torres has had four different partners in five Premier League games, while the 4-4-2 that flopped at Manchester City threatened to triumph at United. We look at Roy's choices in detail...

AUGUST 15: LIVERPOOL 1 (Ngog, 46) ARSENAL 1 (Reina og, 90)
Starting Line-Up (4-2-3-1): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger; Gerrard, Mascherano; Kuyt, Cole, Jovanovic; Ngog.

Substitutes: Rodriguez for Jovanovic (66), Torres for Ngog (74), Lucas for Mascherano (79).

Possession: 35%. Shots on target: 4 (Opposition: 3). Shots off target: 4 (Opposition: 8)

Roy Hodgson began Liverpool's Premier League season with a Rafa-esque 4-2-3-1 formation but with Joe Cole in the 'Gerrard role' behind David Ngog rather than Fernando Torres, who was still recovering from his damp squib of a World Cup. Steven Gerrard started in the centre of midfield, while Lucas was on the bench and only entered the fray after an injury to Javier Mascherano. Cole's sending-off saw Liverpool forced into a 4-4-1 formation with Jovanovic and Kuyt playing as more orthodox wingers either side of the two central midfielders, with Ngog and then Torres (who barely touched the ball) isolated in attack.

AUGUST 23: MAN CITY 3 (Barry, 32, Tevez 52 and 68) LIVERPOOL 0
Starting Line-Up (4-4-2): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger; Kuyt, Gerrard, Lucas, Jovanovic; Torres, Ngog.

Substitutes: Babel for Torres (78), Pacheco for Jovanovic (86).

Possession: 46%. Shots on target: 5 (Opposition: 3).Shots off target: 8 (Opposition: 5)

Despite going within minutes of victory against Arsenal at home with a 4-2-3-1 familiar to his players, Hodgson switched to an unfamiliar 4-4-2 for an away game at Eastlands. Cole's suspension and Mascherano's refusal to play may have tied Hodgson's hands somewhat, but he chose to leave new signing Christian Poulsen on the bench and instead allow his two-man central midfield to be bullied by City's three bruisers. The 'partnership' between Ngog and Torres - who had never looked comfortable for Liverpool in a 4-4-2 - was practically nonexistent. Fans were frustrated as Hodgson did not make a substitution until the 78th minute when City were already home and dry.

AUGUST 29: LIVERPOOL 1 (Torres, 65) WEST BROM 0
Starting Line-Up (4-2-3-1): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger; Lucas, Poulsen; Kuyt, Gerrard, Jovanovic; Torres.

Substitutes: Rodriguez for Jovanovic (60), Babel for Torres (89).

Possession: 51%. Shots on target: 4 (Opposition: 3). Shots off target: 4 (Opposition: 9)

After playing a 4-4-2 away at a Champions League rival and getting rolled over, Hodgson switched to a 4-2-3-1 against a newly-promoted side at Anfield. Poulsen and Lucas combined in a defensive central midfield, with Gerrard restored to his usual place behind Torres. The result was a very poor game with Liverpool struggling to create many clear-cut chances, while West Brom had more goal attempts than their more illustrious opponents. Substitutions were again of the like-for-like kind, with fans unimpressed by the narrowest of victories over the Baggies.

SEPTEMBER 12: BIRMINGHAM 0 LIVERPOOL 0
Starting Line-Up (4-2-3-1): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Konchesky; Lucas, Poulsen; Rodriguez, Gerrard, Jovanovic; Torres.

Substitutes: Meireles for Lucas (76), Agger for Konchesky (78).

Possession: 56%. Shots on target: 3 (Opposition: 2). Shots off target: 7 (Opposition: 13)

Two changes for the visit to Birmingham, with Rodriguez - preferred to Ryan Babel - coming in for the injured Kuyt and new signing Konchesky replacing Agger at left-back. Liverpool enjoyed the majority of possession but Birmingham enjoyed the better chances, with Reina being forced into two excellent saves to keep Liverpool in the game. Torres - described as "diabolical" by Jamie Redknapp - recorded an abysmal 41% pass completion rate and yet stayed on the pitch for the full 90 minutes while David Ngog and Babel remained on the bench. Hodgson did make an attacking substitution in the 76th minute with Lucas sacrificed for new signing Raul Meireles, who took Gerrard's more advanced role while the England man dropped into the central midfield alongside Poulsen. Liverpool looked far more dangerous in those 14 minutes than in the preceding 76.

SEPTEMBER 19: MAN UNITED 3 (Berbatov 42, 59, 84) LIVERPOOL 2 (Gerrard 64, 70)
Starting Line-Up (4-2-3-1): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Konchesky; Gerrard, Poulsen; Rodriguez, Meireles, Cole; Torres.

Substitutes: Ngog for Rodriguez (62), Jovanovic for Meireles (79), Agger for Konchesky (82).

Possession: 51%. Shots on target: 2 (Opposition: 5). Shots off target: 6 (Opposition: 7)

After Liverpool's relatively encouraging finish against Birmingham, Hodgson opted to continue with Meireles in an advanced role behind Torres, with Joe Cole returning on the left ahead of Jovanovic - who had previously started every Premier League game. Results were mixed, with Liverpool keeping possession well but failing to produce a single shot on target in the opening hour of play. Torres and Meireles failed to gel, while Rodriguez was once again anonymous at best in his second successive start under Hodgson. He was hauled off after 62 minutes with Hodgson declining his usual like-for-like substitution and instead bringing on Ngog. Liverpool switched to a 4-4-2 formation with Meireles moving onto the right of a four-man midfield. Liverpool immediately looked a lot more dangerous and came back from 2-0 down to 2-2. With the scores level, Meireles made way for Jovanovic, with the Liverpool boss staying on the front foot and resisting any urge to bring on Lucas to shore up the midfield. They eventually lost 3-2.

TOTAL PLAYERS USED: 19.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:02 pm

bigmick wrote:I think the evolution is an ongoing process, and it was bound to be so as Roy discovers the strengths and weaknesses of what he's got to work with. Clearly even some things were percieved as strengths, Torres for example, are nowhere near so strong currently as he would have hoped. Torres looks frankly lost as a lone front man at the moment, and my guess is we're going to have to re-formulate any plans we had pre season in order to take it into account.

Equally, Roy is discovering what has been known on here for quite a while, namely that we are weak at the back when we come under pressure. My guess is that he's also discovering that Skyrtel isn't that good, although I wish he'd hurry up and discover it so we can move on. In midfield, perhaps Roy watched some of the World Cup and thought maxi could offer something, but unfortunately I'm afraid Maxi suffers from Morientes syndrome, good player but unsuited.

So the evolution must be fluid. That Roy is missing one of his more consistent and reliable performers in Kuyt has been a loss for him, and that Torres is as far away from his best as he obviously is ditto. He has a huge task though does our new manager. Lifting any team from 7th into 4th is a massive ask, not made any easier by man City's continuing improvement. that is the job he's taken on though, and while failure to achieve it ought to be tolerated by sensible fans and board alike, failure to get anywhere near achieveing it probably wouldn't.

My guess is that we will improve and be right in with a shout, but that it will be very close. A surge from man City though would put us out of contention I think, as somewhere around 68-71 points would be our level if I was having a bet.

I think maybe "evolution" is the wrong word? Evolution takes time, millions of years in real terms, but Roy really only has an hour and a half every week (sometimes twice a week) to see his plan "evolve". He has had to hit the ground running with his laces tied together. I really hope he can sort this sh'it out with the backing of the players and the support of the fans. But time certainly doesnt look to be on his side.

by **Raoul** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:12 am

jacdaniel wrote:
1. Why do we play significantly better second halves than first halves? Is Roy only a master at motivating at half time, or what?

Thats a difficult question to answer i guess. My honest opinion is that we're too focused on trying to contain the opposition during the first half.
Perhaps we're giving teams too much respect.

But in the 2nd half we start to actually play a bit. usually cos plan A to contain hasn't worked. Against the likes of united, City, Arsenal, Trabzonspor and even Steuna we were in a bad position at half time so had to attack more.

Maybe we should focus on playing our own game from the start.

Perhaps it is as simple as that. My frustration though is that there seems to be more passion, more effort in the second half, whereas we seem to be going through the motions in the first half.

by **Raoul** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:15 am

sgs wrote:“I'm not that type of player. I like to keep the ball on the ground, and that's what I'll keep doing. Time will show if he [Hodgson] doesn't want to play me because of that".

OK, so the article is in the Echo.

Bit of a strange comment I think - my impression is that we've kept the ball on the ground more so far this season than last.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:23 am

bigmick wrote:I think the evolution is an ongoing process, and it was bound to be so as Roy discovers the strengths and weaknesses of what he's got to work with. Clearly even some things were percieved as strengths, Torres for example, are nowhere near so strong currently as he would have hoped. Torres looks frankly lost as a lone front man at the moment, and my guess is we're going to have to re-formulate any plans we had pre season in order to take it into account.

Do you know why Torres looks lost Mick? Because he doesn't have freakin service to him. Because we are playing 9 man behind the ball and don't pressure the opponents. Roy can't take one aspect of a system, in this case the 4-5-1 and apply his philosophy to it. It doesn't work. He needs to have his complete system in place and drill it into the players so that it becomes 2nd nature. That is what Wenger and Ferguson are good at.

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