"wooooo woo woo woo..... - We had the best midfield in the world

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ciggy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:43 am

bigmick wrote:What a strange thread.

Really  ???

Yet while the capture of Meireles – and Paul Konchesky, who arrived on Merseyside for a medical on Saturday ahead of a £3 million move – provide an answer to where Liverpool are heading on the pitch, they serve as a reminder that only questions remain off it.

Most poignant, as the transfer window draws to a close, is the inquiry as to why Hodgson's revolution did not begin to take shape until the final weekend of August. He was, after all, supposed to have £12 million to spend upon taking the job, plus whatever money is raised through sales, currently £16 million.

Mascherano's departure will take that figure to £102 million. The Spaniard and Hodgson between them have spent just £59.8 million, when Meireles and Konchesky are factored in, in the last 18 months.

At a club where both Tom Hicks, the co-owner, and Christian Purslow, the managing director, have asserted that the "player fund" is sacrosanct, in theory Hodgson should have £40 million burning a hole in his pocket. It is safe to assume he does not


From this piece.

Roy Hodgson shows forward thinking by signing Raul Meireles for £10.7m

By the hyper-inflated standards of football's age of excess, the £10.7 million Liverpool will pay FC Porto for Raúl Meireles is barely enough to cause a ripple in the transfer market. Its impact, though, could be seismic.

Rory Smith


Three months after Rafael Benítez was deposed from his Anfield throne, Roy Hodgson's template for Liverpool's renaissance is becoming apparent.

To assert that Meireles, a Portuguese international of considerable repute and, at 27, in the prime of his career, will be a success in the Premier League is to indulge in astrology, but his arrival does at least indicate that Hodgson has identified the weakness which ultimately cost Liverpool their status among Europe's elite and his predecessor his job.

What Liverpool have lacked in recent years – even when the midfield axis of Javier Mascherano and Xabi Alonso was at its destructive, creative best – is dynamism.

Moving Steven Gerrard into an advanced trequartista role behind Fernando Torres elicited the best from the England international, but came at the cost of robbing Liverpool of impetus from deep, of the thrust particularly vital in the frenetic world of the Premier League.

That is exactly what Meireles provides. First for Boavista, then for Porto and Portugal, his role has been to prompt attacks, not with the range of passing that makes Alonso such a rare gem, but with his relentless energy, his movement, his thrust. Whereas the Basque controlled space, Meireles fills it. If he can replicate the form which earned him the move, the Portuguese will bring an end to the sight of Liverpool lost in stasis.

It is too soon, of course, to suggest that a pairing of Meireles and Christian Poulsen, another new arrival, are suitable heirs for the players so long – and, judging by their new employers, rightly – proclaimed by the Kop as the best midfield in the world. As a duo, though, they possess the characteristics to thrive.

Whereas Mascherano is an attack dog of a midfield player, hunting down and ruthlessly eliminating his targets, Poulsen exists to guard, patrolling in front of the back four, positioning himself and picking off danger. The Dane will control Liverpool's shape, switch the angles of attack. He will play in the horizontal. Meireles adds a vertical element.

Despite the failed flirtation with 4-4-2 at Eastlands, Hodgson seems likely to employ his two most recent signings in the 4-2-3-1 with which the bulk of his squad are familiar. Gerrard will return to his role behind Torres, with the bustle of Dirk Kuyt or the finesse of Maxi Rodríguez on the right.

Joe Cole will, nominally, be stationed on the left, but it is an article of faith with Hodgson to allow his wide players a degree of fluidity. There will be no restrictions on the England player's freedom of movement, as there were in those days at Chelsea where he struggled to impose his authority on games. Liverpool's most naturally gifted technician ought not to be sacrificed.

Yet while the capture of Meireles – and Paul Konchesky, who arrived on Merseyside for a medical on Saturday ahead of a £3 million move – provide an answer to where Liverpool are heading on the pitch, they serve as a reminder that only questions remain off it.

Most poignant, as the transfer window draws to a close, is the inquiry as to why Hodgson's revolution did not begin to take shape until the final weekend of August. He was, after all, supposed to have £12 million to spend upon taking the job, plus whatever money is raised through sales, currently £16 million.

When Mascherano, who arrived in Barcelona on Saturday for his medical, signs for the Spanish champions, the total sum supposedly available to Hodgson should stand at £50 million. Yet the captures of Meireles and Konchesky take the club's outlay this summer to £24.2 million. As always at Liverpool, something does not add up.

Since Benítez decided to sell Robbie Keane back to Tottenham for £16 million in January 2009, Liverpool have recouped some £80 million in sales.

Mascherano's departure will take that figure to £102 million. The Spaniard and Hodgson between them have spent just £59.8 million, when Meireles and Konchesky are factored in, in the last 18 months.

At a club where both Tom Hicks, the co-owner, and Christian Purslow, the managing director, have asserted that the "player fund" is sacrosanct, in theory Hodgson should have £40 million burning a hole in his pocket. It is safe to assume he does not.

For all that Meireles represents a coup for Liverpool, a putsch is required before Hodgson's renaissance can truly take hold.
Last edited by Ciggy on Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:06 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:Aquilani was the WORST signing in our club's history and people are moaning he's gone?   ???

Yes, he spat at fans and laughed during the Hilsborough Memorial Service quite often, didn't he...

You dweeb. :no

Not sure I agree with your reasoning, but I think we've had worse signings than Aquilani. Maybe his price tag makes him worse VALUE than most, but I think Robbie Keane at £19m/£20.3m and lasting six months could make him worse value.

I'd pick someone from Souness' reign personally, or perhaps we should bash some of the usual suspects like Dundee, Pichnik, Meijer etc


By the way Lando, six posts in a row must be some kind of record albeit completely unnecessary, and 10 out of 11. Cue mods to do/say nothing and probably criticise me for even dare mention it.......... :rolleyes:
Last edited by Owzat on Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:32 am

In and Out wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:Note: The squad itself wasn't a shambles per se, some dead wood needs to be casted off and morale picked up. Otherwise if this wasn't the case Rafa would still be here *phew*

Rafa was let go/fired because the owners and rafa couldn't agree on the terms and conditions to move forward. It's as simple as that. When Rafa renewed his contract they agreed on conditions which the owners/board couldn't keep and Rafa questioned them. This has been said by Rafa and similarly Torres. If people on here couldn't see who is the main culprit in our decline then I'm afraid they will be in for much more disappointments. I'll just say that if Rafa did stay I can bet my house that he would be able to improve on last season's performance similar to people claiming that Roy can improve on last season's performance. Rafa didn't leave because he somehow ran himself into a deep hole and couldn't get out. He wasn't given a chance to get out. It is a matter of principle that if people screwed you in the :censored: before and you don't like it, you're not gonna let them screw you again. I'm just gonna stop here because people can think whatever they want at the end of the day.

P.S. The deadwood like Lucas that Rafa left behind could reportedly snatch Roy 7 million pounds. That's gotta be fairly good deadwood which is fairly useable as firewood I must say. No matter what anyone says Rafa is a legend for LFC for winning our 5th European Cup, 7th FA Cup and restoring us as a force in Europe. If anyone says otherwise I'll be glad to respond with a 'feck off' anytime. Roy indeed has a long way to go.

Yes, kudos to Rafa for winning the CL back in 2005 the best moment of his managerial career with LFC and the best occasion I have had for many a year as a fan of LFC.

BUT

He's not a legend in my eyes and you can tell me to f.uck off all you like, that's going too far. He made some legendary moments of that there is no doubt, but overall, a legend? Not quite (not in my eyes anyway) he had too many short comings in the end to qualify him that.

Wow really? You consider calling a Liverpool manager who won only the 5th European Cup in the club's 118 year history 'a legend' too far? (And this feat done during a period when we were far from the strongest financially.)
Really? Wow ok...
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Postby Owzat » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:45 am

His legend status is all very dependant on winning what is a cup so I can understand where he's coming from. Other 'legends' did a tad more than just win the European Cup, that was the icing on the cake but they did have to earn being there first by winning the league..................................

The only person I would make a legend is Dalglish who despite not winning the European Cup because we were excluded, won three league titles including a double, and we finished runners-up every other season in which he managed us. And again to back-up I&O's point, compare Rafa to other legends and he is so out of place by comparison.

Rafa won us the Champions League, arguably his greatest achievement, but for me that no more makes him a legend than Houllier for winning the UEFA Cup - whether as part of the treble or standalone. It's like if Trott had scored a double hundred at Lords for the second time, I understand he would have been the only England player to do so, labelling him a legend. It would have been a massive achievement, but doesn't make him a legend. Other factors will determine that.

EDIT : and by the way, he happened to win it and it became the fifth. There is no real significance in that number, and it isn't like he won the first four. The way some people say it you'd think he's in credit for five European Cups, the next person to do it was always going to be the winner of number five - not, as I said, that five is particularly significant despite being held as such by some/most Liverpool fans
Last edited by Owzat on Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Penguins » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:59 am

Well, maybe when we still have 5 European cups in 15 years time Rafa's achievement with 2 finals in 3 years and one win will be seen in a different light....
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:07 am

Owzat wrote:His legend status is all very dependant on winning what is a cup so I can understand where he's coming from. Other 'legends' did a tad more than just win the European Cup, that was the icing on the cake but they did have to earn being there first by winning the league..................................

The only person I would make a legend is Dalglish who despite not winning the European Cup because we were excluded, won three league titles including a double, and we finished runners-up every other season in which he managed us. And again to back-up I&O's point, compare Rafa to other legends and he is so out of place by comparison.

Rafa won us the Champions League, arguably his greatest achievement, but for me that no more makes him a legend than Houllier for winning the UEFA Cup - whether as part of the treble or standalone. It's like if Trott had scored a double hundred at Lords for the second time, I understand he would have been the only England player to do so, labelling him a legend. It would have been a massive achievement, but doesn't make him a legend. Other factors will determine that.

EDIT : and by the way, he happened to win it and it became the fifth. There is no real significance in that number, and it isn't like he won the first four. The way some people say it you'd think he's in credit for five European Cups, the next person to do it was always going to be the winner of number five - not, as I said, that five is particularly significant despite being held as such by some/most Liverpool fans

Winning the CL and winning the UEFA cup is vastly different my friend. How anyone can compare the two is beyond me. And I wasn't signifying 5th as in the amount but rather as fifth in 118 years. That's one every 23 years. That is how significant it is.
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Postby Ciggy » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:11 am

maguskwt wrote:Wow really? You consider calling a Liverpool manager who won only the 5th European Cup in the club's 118 year history 'a legend' too far? (And this feat done during a period when we were far from the strongest financially.)
Really? Wow ok...

Him and his sheep will be the first ones to shout LEGEND if Roy wins something though.
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Postby Owzat » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:17 am

maguskwt wrote:Winning the CL and winning the UEFA cup is vastly different my friend. How anyone can compare the two is beyond me. And I wasn't signifying 5th as in the amount but rather as fifth in 118 years. That's one every 23 years. That is how significant it is.


There are stronger sides in the CL these days, granted. But both are two legged cup competitions and we were far from convincing in winning either. I'm not saying the UEFA Cup is as prestigious, probably not as hard to win these days, but to deem one a legend for winning the CL and not the other for doing a cup treble is selective.

Oh and if winning the UEFA Cup is so easy, how come we didn't win it last season, or since Houllier did? Sure the quality of teams is theoretically better in the CL, but you often get very strong sides in the UEFA Cup - especially back in 2001 when people forget the format wasn't identical (CWC was only disbanded a few years earlier, I believe it wasn't all four top teams from top leagues etc)

And as for the PERCEIVED significance of winning five, you've just quoted equally meaningless numbers. One every 23 years is only significant if you regard it so, one every 10 years is more significant, five times in five seasons (Real Madrid) is more significant, you're just quoting numbers that don't mean anything. There is no directory of significant numbers for football and 23 and 5 are listed...........................
Last edited by Owzat on Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby In and Out » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:26 am

maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:Note: The squad itself wasn't a shambles per se, some dead wood needs to be casted off and morale picked up. Otherwise if this wasn't the case Rafa would still be here *phew*

Rafa was let go/fired because the owners and rafa couldn't agree on the terms and conditions to move forward. It's as simple as that. When Rafa renewed his contract they agreed on conditions which the owners/board couldn't keep and Rafa questioned them. This has been said by Rafa and similarly Torres. If people on here couldn't see who is the main culprit in our decline then I'm afraid they will be in for much more disappointments. I'll just say that if Rafa did stay I can bet my house that he would be able to improve on last season's performance similar to people claiming that Roy can improve on last season's performance. Rafa didn't leave because he somehow ran himself into a deep hole and couldn't get out. He wasn't given a chance to get out. It is a matter of principle that if people screwed you in the :censored: before and you don't like it, you're not gonna let them screw you again. I'm just gonna stop here because people can think whatever they want at the end of the day.

P.S. The deadwood like Lucas that Rafa left behind could reportedly snatch Roy 7 million pounds. That's gotta be fairly good deadwood which is fairly useable as firewood I must say. No matter what anyone says Rafa is a legend for LFC for winning our 5th European Cup, 7th FA Cup and restoring us as a force in Europe. If anyone says otherwise I'll be glad to respond with a 'feck off' anytime. Roy indeed has a long way to go.

Yes, kudos to Rafa for winning the CL back in 2005 the best moment of his managerial career with LFC and the best occasion I have had for many a year as a fan of LFC.

BUT

He's not a legend in my eyes and you can tell me to f.uck off all you like, that's going too far. He made some legendary moments of that there is no doubt, but overall, a legend? Not quite (not in my eyes anyway) he had too many short comings in the end to qualify him that.

Wow really? You consider calling a Liverpool manager who won only the 5th European Cup in the club's 118 year history 'a legend' too far? (And this feat done during a period when we were far from the strongest financially.)
Really? Wow ok...

A legend is made over a period of time, having one fantastic season in football doesn't make anyone nor Rafa a legend IMHO.
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Postby In and Out » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:27 am

Ciggy wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Wow really? You consider calling a Liverpool manager who won only the 5th European Cup in the club's 118 year history 'a legend' too far? (And this feat done during a period when we were far from the strongest financially.)
Really? Wow ok...

Him and his sheep will be the first ones to shout LEGEND if Roy wins something though.

Give over woman.
Football is a relatively simple game and Roy knows it ;)
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:47 am

Owzat wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Winning the CL and winning the UEFA cup is vastly different my friend. How anyone can compare the two is beyond me. And I wasn't signifying 5th as in the amount but rather as fifth in 118 years. That's one every 23 years. That is how significant it is.


There are stronger sides in the CL these days, granted. But both are two legged cup competitions and we were far from convincing in winning either. I'm not saying the UEFA Cup is as prestigious, probably not as hard to win these days, but to deem one a legend for winning the CL and not the other for doing a cup treble is selective.

Oh and if winning the UEFA Cup is so easy, how come we didn't win it last season, or since Houllier did? Sure the quality of teams is theoretically better in the CL, but you often get very strong sides in the UEFA Cup - especially back in 2001 when people forget the format wasn't identical (CWC was only disbanded a few years earlier, I believe it wasn't all four top teams from top leagues etc)

And as for the PERCEIVED significance of winning five, you've just quoted equally meaningless numbers. One every 23 years is only significant if you regard it so, one every 10 years is more significant, five times in five seasons (Real Madrid) is more significant, you're just quoting numbers that don't mean anything. There is no directory of significant numbers for football and 23 and 5 are listed...........................

Again you are over analyzing too much and the point that was made flew right over your head. When did I make any significance out of 'numbers'? All I said was we have won 5 European Cup trophies in 118 years. That is how special it is. Do you know the meaning of qualitative assessment? Because all you seem to be doing is quantitative assessments. I'll give you a little example:

Ask any manager, ANY manager what they want to win the Champions League or the UEFA Cup. Guess what they will reply? You don't need me to give you the answer.
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Postby maguskwt » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:50 am

In and Out wrote:A legend is made over a period of time, having one fantastic season in football doesn't make anyone nor Rafa a legend IMHO.

Well yeah ok... just remember that it was 21 years since we previously won the CL when Rafa won it... let's just wait and see how long we will have to wait again until we get back to even challenging for it again...
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Postby In and Out » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:01 am

maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:A legend is made over a period of time, having one fantastic season in football doesn't make anyone nor Rafa a legend IMHO.

Well yeah ok... just remember that it was 21 years since we previously won the CL when Rafa won it... let's just wait and see how long we will have to wait again until we get back to even challenging for it again...

I'm not playing down what he achieved it was a fantastic achievement.

you've got your opinion, I've got mine, they differ-but no problem.
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Postby bigmick » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:23 am

maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:Note: The squad itself wasn't a shambles per se, some dead wood needs to be casted off and morale picked up. Otherwise if this wasn't the case Rafa would still be here *phew*

Rafa was let go/fired because the owners and rafa couldn't agree on the terms and conditions to move forward. It's as simple as that. When Rafa renewed his contract they agreed on conditions which the owners/board couldn't keep and Rafa questioned them. This has been said by Rafa and similarly Torres. If people on here couldn't see who is the main culprit in our decline then I'm afraid they will be in for much more disappointments. I'll just say that if Rafa did stay I can bet my house that he would be able to improve on last season's performance similar to people claiming that Roy can improve on last season's performance. Rafa didn't leave because he somehow ran himself into a deep hole and couldn't get out. He wasn't given a chance to get out. It is a matter of principle that if people screwed you in the :censored: before and you don't like it, you're not gonna let them screw you again. I'm just gonna stop here because people can think whatever they want at the end of the day.

P.S. The deadwood like Lucas that Rafa left behind could reportedly snatch Roy 7 million pounds. That's gotta be fairly good deadwood which is fairly useable as firewood I must say. No matter what anyone says Rafa is a legend for LFC for winning our 5th European Cup, 7th FA Cup and restoring us as a force in Europe. If anyone says otherwise I'll be glad to respond with a 'feck off' anytime. Roy indeed has a long way to go.

Seriously mate he's gone, let it go.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:57 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
In and Out wrote:Note: The squad itself wasn't a shambles per se, some dead wood needs to be casted off and morale picked up. Otherwise if this wasn't the case Rafa would still be here *phew*

Rafa was let go/fired because the owners and rafa couldn't agree on the terms and conditions to move forward. It's as simple as that. When Rafa renewed his contract they agreed on conditions which the owners/board couldn't keep and Rafa questioned them. This has been said by Rafa and similarly Torres. If people on here couldn't see who is the main culprit in our decline then I'm afraid they will be in for much more disappointments. I'll just say that if Rafa did stay I can bet my house that he would be able to improve on last season's performance similar to people claiming that Roy can improve on last season's performance. Rafa didn't leave because he somehow ran himself into a deep hole and couldn't get out. He wasn't given a chance to get out. It is a matter of principle that if people screwed you in the :censored: before and you don't like it, you're not gonna let them screw you again. I'm just gonna stop here because people can think whatever they want at the end of the day.

P.S. The deadwood like Lucas that Rafa left behind could reportedly snatch Roy 7 million pounds. That's gotta be fairly good deadwood which is fairly useable as firewood I must say. No matter what anyone says Rafa is a legend for LFC for winning our 5th European Cup, 7th FA Cup and restoring us as a force in Europe. If anyone says otherwise I'll be glad to respond with a 'feck off' anytime. Roy indeed has a long way to go.

Seriously mate he's gone, let it go.

You know what, if we're wondering why there is constant bickering on this forum, this is a very good example. I don't think that anyone is having a problem with pro-Roy's biggie-ing up Roy.. "Ohhhhhhh... Roy did this as opposed to the previous manager... Roy did that as opposed to the previous manager...blah blah blah". It goes to show that the pro-Rafas are the ones that actually have a problem with moving on
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