Liverpool FC Forum

by **7_Kewell** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:40 pm

shabelle50 wrote:There's a lot of delusion on these blogs. The players were terrible last season and they've not been much better this season, particularly last night. Rabonitcki were hardly much opposition and only 2-0 was a poor scoreline in all honesty. Only the away game could be considered progress given that there were a few kids playing. The turks showed Liverpool up last week when they put men behind the ball.

i don't agree. We had a legal goal chalked off for no reason and also a penalty saved.

We should have won that 3-0. It's not tacitcs, it was just luck on the day.

by **BKrimmel** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:23 pm

Tactics aside, Hodgson is going to have a huge up hill battle in the Premiership with the current squad on the field. And it is all because of the lack of creative players and lack of any natural wingers. This shouldn't seem like a surprise as going back to most of last year the creativity of Liverpool when they were on the ball was never there. The offense is also taking a huge hit as Torres is nowhere near the type of form that made him one of the best strikers in the world. It could be nagging injuries or lack of fitness, but nonetheless he is at least two steeps slower and it is hurting the club badly. Hodgson will need to be very careful in squad selection and formations because right now there is no sort of offensive moves that create chances which could make scoring against the likes of Blackpool, Wigan and West Ham difficult. That is a tough thought to have because we have the finishers to score, but no creators.

by **shabelle50** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:48 pm

7_Kewell wrote:
shabelle50 wrote:There's a lot of delusion on these blogs. The players were terrible last season and they've not been much better this season, particularly last night. Rabonitcki were hardly much opposition and only 2-0 was a poor scoreline in all honesty. Only the away game could be considered progress given that there were a few kids playing. The turks showed Liverpool up last week when they put men behind the ball.

i don't agree. We had a legal goal chalked off for no reason and also a penalty saved.

We should have won that 3-0. It's not tacitcs, it was just luck on the day.

The second half against the Turks was better but besides Babel's goal in the first half it was poor. Don't take my word for it Roy Evans stated as much after the game on LFCTV. Besides the scramble after about 57 minutes last night I can't remember many if any clear chances. 2-0 against Rabonitcki Chelski or United would have done them 7 or 8 at home.

Hodgson is on a steep upward learning curve as I see it but I'm all for being convinced that the early season optimism is well founded. Whatever else Liverpool have to beat West Brom at home and get through on thursday or I'm afraid Hodgson's selections and tactics will come further under the microscope.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:09 pm

There's been too much direct and impatient play. Too many risky passes and not enough intelligent play. There's no shame in making any kind of pass so long as it's the right one to make and executed well. We haven't made nearly enough of them. We've looked for Ngog with the long hoofball over the top when we should be looking to play through the midfield, we've played slow predictable sideways passes that barely advance the team up the pitch, we've passed it into feet in congested areas e.g. Joe Cole, when we needed players pulling out wide, we've crossed from wide areas when we should be looking to play in a runner from deep etc.. etc..

No doubt about it there are inheresnt weaknesses in the squad that make oplaying a better possession game quite difficult and some of those we've long known about - Lucas, Kuyt, Ngog, Carra and I suppose you might include Jovanovic in there despite his dribbling ability, he is completely different from what we had there with Albert Riera i.e. genuine balance, if not end product. On top of that, Gerrard has never been all that composed despite having a great passing range, and Torres has been well short in his build up play despite showing glimpses of brilliance near the box.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:17 pm

How is that fixed thou ? We need someone in the middle of the park to control and create yet don't have the funds to purchase someone ! Plus the lack of a left back and another striker as well as a lack of pace in attack . One thing we were always very good at was a fast clinical counter attack but it seems we have lost that due to having so many players behind the ball ? How can we improve things ?

by **shabelle50** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:20 pm

Poulsen and Gerrard in the centre could be useful. It's still early days so we'll see.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:22 pm

But neither are a creative calming influence in the middle of the park thou - one a destroyer below the level of masher - the other a dynamic power player who sits too deep and doesn't control a game

by **burjennio** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:34 pm

MOMEMENT OFF THE BALL. Quite simple when you type it out like but time after time in the last few years I have been so frustrated by players just standing still in advanced positions instead of making smart runs and causing hesitation in the opposition defence. Remember the run-in in 08/09 when everyone played with freedom because we HAD to win every game? We may not have Riera and Alonso but I dont believe for a second guys like Jovanovic and Maxi arnt intelligent footballers capable of making clever runs that cause havoc especially when full backs overlap.

by **BKrimmel** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:43 pm

burjennio wrote:MOMEMENT OFF THE BALL. Quite simple when you type it out like but time after time in the last few years I have been so frustrated by players just standing still in advanced positions instead of making smart runs and causing hesitation in the opposition defence. Remember the run-in in 08/09 when everyone played with freedom because we HAD to win every game? We may not have Riera and Alonso but I dont believe for a second guys like Jovanovic and Maxi arnt intelligent footballers capable of making clever runs that cause havoc especially when full backs overlap.

I agree big time. It seems that there is just a lackluster offense because nobody moving or really trying to get open. The defenders are having an easy time as there isn't any movement of the players off the ball.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:50 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:How is that fixed thou ? We need someone in the middle of the park to control and create yet don't have the funds to purchase someone ! Plus the lack of a left back and another striker as well as a lack of pace in attack . One thing we were always very good at was a fast clinical counter attack but it seems we have lost that due to having so many players behind the ball ? How can we improve things ?

For a start, sign a bloody striker - one good at holding the ball up. Play Poulsen and not Lucas in the middle. It remains to be seen whether or not Poulsen can be the type of player you describe - I'm not sure he is, but others who've seen him more often than I and whose opinions I respect say he is, so we'll see. At any rate, if Mascherano leaves I would feel pretty worried if we didn't bring another one.

What else can we do? Generally keep with a 4-2-3-1, defend as a unit and more importantly try and build attacks by advancing the team up the pitch instead of going so direct.

I've no doubt that once we're into the swings of things, once Cole comes back into the fold and once Torres finds form and fitness, we'll start playing some better attacking football.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:52 am

Benny The Noon wrote:How is that fixed thou ? We need someone in the middle of the park to control and create yet don't have the funds to purchase someone ! Plus the lack of a left back and another striker as well as a lack of pace in attack . One thing we were always very good at was a fast clinical counter attack but it seems we have lost that due to having so many players behind the ball ? How can we improve things ?

There's no doubt we do but I wouldn't hold my breath, the closest we have/had to that type of player was Aquilani but clearly Hodgson wasn't impressed with the lad. Alonso was quizzed on England's performances in an interview I read the other day and he was very surprised that England did not use Michael Carrick on a regular basis + he went on to say that someone like Carrick would compliment Gerrard's abilities perfectly. We might not have a 'Carrick' type player anymore but we can certainly be a better side with more productive and clever play from our wide players and more importantly, from Joe Cole when he's available. If we're going to play more 4-4-2 this year then i'm afraid we simply can't play Dirk in a wide position, we seen it before and I think most of us agree that he doesn't have enough in his locker to make things work as a genuine wide middie in this formation. Jovanovich (based on last night) seems to fall into the very same category.

I still like the potential of Gerrard in the middle of the park, Cole playing in the hole (interchanging with Gerrard), a fit and firing Torres upfront and Babel & Kuyt in the wide positions. I'd also like to see more of Pachecho in the next ten games either deputising for Cole or seeing time on the left handside. It would also be right to get Agger back in his rightful position, last night couldn't have done much for the lad's confidence so i'd rather see him back there with Carragher.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:55 am

Igor Zidane wrote:4-4-2 will not work imo .. Look at last night and it shows you everything you need to know. Gerrard considered one of the best midfielders in the world was ineffective , why? He had only Lucas beside him and they were struggeling to get the ball off , or when they had the ball through 3 very effective midfielders in dejong ,barry and the man mountain yaya toure. Not only that, johnson on the right was providing width and milner on the left was roaming all over the show including coming infield and creating more problems for gerrard and Lucas . Kuyt was awful and could not keep possesion or find a team mate , jovanovic was no better . So the pressure was building and building on Gerrard and Lucas to contain the city midfield rather than impose there own game on city . If roy was placed into a predicament by mascherano's no show then that's why he played N'gog up with torres . N'gog was trying but his ball retention was poor so the ball kept going back to city and off they went again through there midfield or out wide to johnson . Roy should have taken the gamble and played poulson with Lucas . It would have left Gerrard to play behind Torres and there midfield would atleast been checked and would have had a harder night . I'm not saying we would have won , but i'm certain we would have been more competative and would of had a better chance at getting a result .

Ok so now we've got 2 hard fixtures out of the way with 1 point . It's not the end of the world and i'm not @rsed to be honest about trabsonspour .Roy needs to get back to 4 3 3 for west brom at home and kick there @rses all over the shop.

With the players we have, I definitely agree that a 4-4-2 would not be as effective as the 3 men central midifield formation we've employed in the last few seasons... be it a 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1.

It doesn't make sense to me that we would have employed the 4-4-2 against one of our main rivals in the league. Especially knowing full well that City have a pretty formidable and robust 3-man central midifield anchored by Toure and the dirty sh!te De Jong.

I think Roy knew it too. Looking at the way we played, I think that the plan was changed at the eleventh hour due to Mascherano's shameful shenenigans. With Poulsen not being quite ready, it is my thought that Roy had been left with little choice and precious little time to adjust the team's set-up and man the starting eleven with the adequate playing staff to counter City engine room.

I believe that is what happenned as I don't think that a manager of his experience and ability would have set out to play the calibre of opponents that we faced on the night with the team we put out.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:12 am

The only reason I can think of as to why Roy played 4-4-2 against city, away, is that he genuinely just went for it. To try put them on the back foot and show a more aggressive attitude. I don't think many of us expected city to play as well as they did. As we all acknowledge, they have spent a fortune on new players, and of course the "they will need time to gel" attitude, but against us, they did gel, and very well. And the 4-4-2 backfired disastrously.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:34 am

Another thing, the defence needs to squeeze up when we're on the attack. The midfielders don't want to venture forward for fear of leaving the defence exposed and so that's left too big a distance between our attackers to allow for effective support play. From defence to attack you need to move forward and backwards as a unit, not as two separate blocks, or with strands here and there. They're all relying on each other for support out there and we've not got that right yet. Problem is, it's a lot easier to sit deep, absorb pressure and play the direct counter-attacking game that we've invariably seen in the last two games, but a lot harder to move back to front as a unit. That's what we'll need to do in order to create sustained pressure and will at the same time allow us to protect the space in front of the defence.

Final point, I'd like to see Pacheco given a proper go against West Brom. Stick him behind Torres or in place of one of the wingers, replace Poulsen with Lucas and play Agger at CB and Aurelio at LB.

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:39 am

there is an excellent analysis here about the game the other night. excellent points about being outnumbered in midfield.

http://timhi.wordpress.com/2010....t230810

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