Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:28 pm

In and Out wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
stmichael wrote:the main thing that came out of yesterdays game was the reinforcement that gerrard and mascherano in a central two does not work. it was pretty weird actually. mascherano spent more of the game further forward than gerrard, especially in the second half.

Strange conclusion, mate. I think they played quite well together, as they have done in the past. Let's remember that they played an entire half a man short as well, which will have a significant impact on how they approach their midfield duties. Masch did get forward more than Stevie in the second half but only as opportunities dictated (nick the ball in midfield and drive into the oppo half while your partner sits in etc.).

Diaby and Wilshere dominated them in the first half.

I think I'd agree with that, terratorially they did have us pinned back although they never got in behind us. I think we sat well off them in the first half and left acres between midfield and N'gog.

We were too compact in the first half that we when got possesion we could only play a telegraph pass to a player within five yards or look to knock it long for N'gog. Most of the time we tended to go long and we'd loose possesion. Our wide players were to narrow and we could never get going possesion wise.

I'd like to see Masch anchor more with Gerrard getting forward and Kuyt and Jovanovic widening the field a bit more. F.uck, I really do feel it was two lost points though, with the way their goal came and at the time, it did even with 10men feel like a sickening blow for me. How good would have the morale been if we'd hung on to that lead.

Yeah I'd agree with that. We were fortunate that Arsenal were pretty powderpuff in attack by their standards when you consider how much possession we surrendered to them, especially in the first half.

N'Gog was completely isolated at times aswell as the gap between the midfield and attack was far too big. We still defend far too deep for my liking. We need to push higher up the pitch.

by **matt_liverpool** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:09 pm

stmichael wrote:Yeah I'd agree with that. We were fortunate that Arsenal were pretty powderpuff in attack by their standards when you consider how much possession we surrendered to them, especially in the first half.

N'Gog was completely isolated at times aswell as the gap between the midfield and attack was far too big. We still defend far too deep for my liking. We need to push higher up the pitch.

It's too early to judge how will play in the games ahead. Yesterday's tactics might well just be one off. I'm very much confident we'll not be sitting this deep against anyone else at Anfield this season except may be for Man Utd and Chelsea.

Credit to Roy for nullifying Arsenal yesterday. He was spot on with his tactics. Arsenal could hardly create anything whole game. Going out all out against Arsenal has never been a good option anyway. And no, we were not fortunate that Arsenal were powder puff in their attack. We didn't let them build any kind of attack.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:09 pm

In and Out wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
stmichael wrote:the main thing that came out of yesterdays game was the reinforcement that gerrard and mascherano in a central two does not work. it was pretty weird actually. mascherano spent more of the game further forward than gerrard, especially in the second half.

Strange conclusion, mate. I think they played quite well together, as they have done in the past. Let's remember that they played an entire half a man short as well, which will have a significant impact on how they approach their midfield duties. Masch did get forward more than Stevie in the second half but only as opportunities dictated (nick the ball in midfield and drive into the oppo half while your partner sits in etc.).

Diaby and Wilshere dominated them in the first half.

I think I'd agree with that, terratorially they did have us pinned back although they never got in behind us. I think we sat well off them in the first half and left acres between midfield and N'gog.

We were too compact in the first half that we when got possesion we could only play a telegraph pass to a player within five yards or look to knock it long for N'gog. Most of the time we tended to go long and we'd loose possesion. Our wide players were to narrow and we could never get going possesion wise.

I'd like to see Masch anchor more with Gerrard getting forward and Kuyt and Jovanovic widening the field a bit more. F.uck, I really do feel it was two lost points though, with the way their goal came and at the time, it did even with 10men feel like a sickening blow for me. How good would have the morale been if we'd hung on to that lead.

I'm not sure I'd say either side were "dominant" first half. They had us pegged back, certainly, but I think that was partially Roy's tactics: sit a bit deeper and compress the space they could play in. It worked by the way: Arsenal didn't get up to much either and their usual passing game was not ticking along as normal. Diaby seemed to be doing a man-marking job on Cole, which left Gerrard and Masch with fewer options but I still think they are a very effective midfield pairing.

I think both teams canceled each other out in the first half. Not that surprising when you consider the sides are pretty evenly matched and it was the first game of the season.

I'd say we were comfortably the better side in the second half despite being a man down. Arsenal couldn't string two passes together and posed very little goal threat until Walcott and Rosicky came on.

by **In and Out** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:43 pm

Perhaps "dominated" wasn't the right word but I didn't take it literally anyway.

by **andy_g** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:35 pm

In and Out wrote:Perhaps "dominated" wasn't the right word but I didn't take it literally anyway.

if people could make more effort to choose the correct words to express their opinions on this forum then maybe we wouldn't all be so.... eerrr.... y'know... whatchamacallit...

by **LFC2007** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:51 pm

In and Out wrote:We were too compact in the first half that we when got possesion we could only play a telegraph pass to a player within five yards or look to knock it long for N'gog. Most of the time we tended to go long and we'd loose possesion. Our wide players were to narrow and we could never get going possesion wise.

Agreed. In the first half, Ngog was flagged offside on at least three occasions from long balls over the top and that gave possession straight back to Arsenal. This, plus the fact that Cole was under a lot of pressure meant we needed to use the wide areas in order to maintain better possession. Kuyt and Johnson faired pretty well in getting the balance right as they both kept within a good distance of each other to be effective. The other side didn't work nearly as well going forward. Jovanovic was too near to Clichy and too far from Agger, and this limited the passing options of the likesof Gerrard, Masch and Carragher. He needed to pull wide on occasions and receive it in space ala Riera, instead of looking for the direct run in behind the full back (he got in once and fluffed it); that way he'd have had the space to hold the ball, bring others into play and build an attack.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:06 pm

In a word disappointed ...basically the Gooooners were there for the taking and we played into their depleted squads hands ,I mean Wilshere and Diaby it doesn't fill you with any real trepidation

I was surprised by Roys insistence on playing a defensive formation especially at Anfield ... the rigid set up also went someway in blunting Coles game he was at times far too isolated and you could see the frustration in the lad ...Aquilani or Pacheco needs to play in his absence.... we seriously need someone with invention in that role
I thought the defence were looking virtually water tight albeit from Johnson who was missing on a few occasions leaving Carra and more worryingly Gerrard to cover the gaping gaps he left .... great going forward but still not a solid enough defender for me personally... on one occasion the Kop groaned in unison when he was nutmegged with consummate ease by Walcott ...
I thought Agger was dependable enough but this isn't his position that much is apparent .... like I said Aggers place is at centre back he gives us another option as he can carry the ball forward thus supplementing the attack ... Aurelio should have played at Left back ...
that said I thought the defence overall was solid enough (albeit from Johnson ) Carra was back to his imperious best
I thought Kuyt's workrate was phenomenal and he seems back to his most industrious, snapping away at the opponent harrying them into making mistakes .....and it was this and Mascherano's persistence that oh so nearly won it for us ..... anyway as a first game I suppose a draw isn't that bad especially after Coles reckless lunge
In summation I would have to say well done Roy for having the guts to play Ngog and not bowing to the ridiculous demand to play Babel as the lone striker ... the Lad performed admirably and could have headed two more in his time on the field ....Ngog although unable to convert earlier chances proved he is a more than a capable striker and the flurry of chances that fall at his feet will soon be converted with aplomb .... going on the way he took his chance yesterday
Its a point on the board Roy obviously didn't want to take chances by playing a more attack minded formation .... I can understand this it was his first game and the byword was caution .... Wenger reciprocated which resulted in both teams swamping the Midfield and thus cancelling each other out .... but then his team were playing Away

On the subject of substitutions I was a bit perplexed to see the exuberance of Jovanovic replaced with Rodriguez who I found lacking any real spark ...and the pace of the game just simply diluted any significant contribution he could have made .... he is best suited to a much more patient build up where retaining possession is of paramount importance
A point against Arsenal is a point against a possible top four side so its essential to avoid defeat and get something on the board
I will end applauding the effort the players gave ...they literally run themselves into the ground ...and for instilling the obvious fight I also applaud the manager ....... Lesson One players must be willing to run through brick walls for Liverpool FC ... Well done boss ..............................

by **fivecups** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:21 pm

So we're continuing with a 4-2-3-1 formation by the looks of it.

I thought Roy was zonal marking through and through? Nice to see some men on the posts during set-plays.

by **Sabre** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:17 pm

fivecups wrote:So we're continuing with a 4-2-3-1 formation by the looks of it.

I thought Roy was zonal marking through and through? Nice to see some men on the posts during set-plays.

2 men on the post, is a zonal marking thing.

I think that in England there's a school of thought of putting only a man in the second post, but yesterday Arsenal saved a Ngog goal precisely because they had one in the first one, it was a header.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:43 pm

Johnson had a reasonably good game overall. There were two instances midway through the first half where he should have done better in tracking the run of Arshavin down the touchline, but we had plenty of men back to cover on both occasions so it wasn't of much consequence in the end - and there were others, like Masch and Gerrard who also failed to get tight to their man and could have prevented the move themselves, so I wouldn't just single out Glen. Otherwise he had the better of Arshavin - a couple of runs down the line he did well to stop, once down the touchline, and once on the edge of the box. You couldn't say he was often out of position or was cause for grave concern as he performed his general defensive duties without really much trouble. Going forward, him and Kuyt contributed to the goal with their pressing, and between they also created at least two other chances - first, a one-two that resulted in a shot tipped over by Almunia, and second a decent cross into the box not far away from Jovanovic. Him and Kuyt worked really well. Other than Joe Cole and Ngog (and to his credit even he worked hard) during the first half, I don't think any performance was cause for concern, certainly not in a defensive sense.

If I had a concern about the game it was that we were too direct, and a little too impatient. A fair number of the long balls up to Ngog, Cole and Jovanovic didn't result in much and it wasn't often you saw Gerrard near the box waiting to get on the end of something. I'm sure we'll see improvements as Torres comes in and we get up and running, but based on the Arsenal game, I'm not convinced we'll be seeing the pass and move football that some people were expecting to see.

by **Scottbot** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:23 am

Just got back from me hols but managed to find a bar in Turkey to watch the game. Absolutely gutted to lose the goal at the end like that because a win could/would have been a massive result for the lads, particularly with some really tough fixtures coming up. My observations were:

- Good to see Hodgson resist the temptation to play the likes of Babel, Torres and Aurelio instead sticking with players who have had a longer re-seaosn to get fit.

- Bit disapointed with our set-up in the first half, that's the way i'd expect us to play at the Emirates or Trafford but not at Anfield, regardless of the opposition. Hope it isn't a sign of things to come because we have the players to impose ourselves on ANY team who come to Anfield. Good to hear Hodgson concede that the lads were too slow getting out to press Arsenal.

- Very very happy with the way the lads played in the 2nd half. Absolutely fantastic, especially the first 15 minutes when Arsenal couldn't get a look in.

- I think we'll be a good side away from home this season. in fact I'll bet we collect more points on our travels at City, mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal than we do at home.

- Delighted for David Ngog, it was a cracking strike and 4 goals in 3 game is not a bad start to the season. He's still a number three striker though.

- Great to see Torres get 20 minutes and hopefully another 30-40 mins on Thursday will stand him in good stead.

- Felt sorry for Cole, the team played so deep he never had a chance to get anywhere near it, I would have switched him to one of the flanks midway through the first half to try and get him more involved.

- How good was it seeing Steven Gerrard making tackles again!? Quite clearly Hodgson is looking for Stevie to play the all action centre-mid role of his earlier career.

- Brave move to play Mascherano yesterday, caught me totally by surprise. It sends a message to any would be suitors that he is our player and he's staying unless they come up with a decent bid. Fair play to the lad as well, he played with his usual gusto and tenacity.

- I like Jovanovic. I don't know if he's any good yet but he's a character! There was one little dribble where he accelerated through the middle and I don't know who it was but he simply straight armed an Arsenal players to the deck as they tried to tackle him.

by **jacdaniel** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:30 am

Was a good defensive performance the other day. Unfortunately the first half performance was a bit concerning. We never really got the ball down and played with 11 men on the field.

Seems like Roy's tactics will be similar enough to Rafa's. Same formation and basically the same personnel.

The only real difference was the man marking. I think that system will work quite well.

For the City game, the only change i can see is Aqua for Cole. lets hope Reina can forget about the howler.

by **Yossi_Benaloon** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:18 am

The performance definitely improved throughout the game and I am sure Reina will be able to get over the error and move on pretty quickly. I have to agree with this Premier League match review which claims it was two points lost rather than one point gained - and who would have thought that playing with 10 men against Arsenal for 45 minutes. I think the signs are looking positive for life under Hodgson and I am looking forward to seeing the likes of Wilson and Shelvey developing and coming into the first team as i think they could be the future of Liverpool.

by **stmichael** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:40 am

Scottbot wrote:I think we'll be a good side away from home this season. in fact I'll bet we collect more points on our travels at City, mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal than we do at home.

I'd agree with that. Mind you we couldn't be any worse than last season. I went to Man City, Sunderland and Blackburn away and in the three games combined we probably mustered about one shot on target. We were dire. Hodgson's poor away record at Fulham is irrelevant imo when you look at the players he had at his disposal compard to what he's got here. We can be devastating on the counter attack. Just look at Torres's first goal against Benfica at home as the prime example. It was probably my favourite goal that we scored in the whole of last season. I'd expect Babel to feature more often than some people think this season, especially against weaker sides.

On Sunday I didn't really see a lot of difference from us under Rafa if I'm honest. We didn't pass the ball well enough, especially in the first half and we nearly got the result due to battling qualities and desire rather than quality. It reminded me of the Derby at home last season after the Greek got sent off and we fought like lions to get the three points. Obviously we'd all like to see more flowing football but that will come with time. Last season we were much better at breaking down teams who came and sat back and I'd like to see that continue. West Brom in a few weeks will be one such game.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:57 am

I guess I'm a little surprised at how many people have expressed some concern over our first half performance. We weren't by any means dire, just not especially adventurous. Perhaps people expected a bit more composure and verve at home but there are a few things to bear in mind:

1) We were playing one of the best teams in the league; one that usually keeps possession for fun and that can scythe you open if you leave too much space

2) It was the opening match of the season, which is never going to be a feast of quality football...that will come with matches under our belts

3) We've got a new manager who's barely had a look at some of his players given injuries, a few transfers and the complications imposed by the World Cup; in fact, our starting keeper, right midfielder and first choice striker haven't been able to play a minute of pre-season nor feature in Europa qualifiers

Given all of these factors I wasn't too surprised nor especially disappointed that we didn't pull up any trees in the first half. Keeping the game tight and going in level at the break was a very good thing, IMO. As it happened the sending off ended up providing a great platform for a backs-to-the-wall job that seemed to fire the lads up no end while unsettling Arsenal markedly. It was, in the end, a disappointing result given the late, late equalizer and the manner of its concession but there are countless positives to take away from this first match rather than fretting over what we didn't manage to do in the first half.

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