Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:05 am

andy_g wrote:i'm not lucas' biggest fan, i think he's ok nothing more. but i do get tired of this 5 yard backward and sideways pass myth that every dicussion about him boils down to. so here's a simple excercise that might finish this tiresome debate once and for all.
step 1. go to http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards
step 2. click on the 'create a chalkboard now' link
step 3. from the menus select 2009/2010 then liverpool
step 4. select any match you like in which lucas played, then select lucas as the player
step 5. select passes as the stat you'd like to see and... voila!
step 6. compare the number of forward passes to the number of sideways and backwards ones (feel free to check up on free kicks won and conceded, tackles and other stuff too)
step 7. write post in the lucas leiva thread on newkit saying 'i'm terribly sorry everyone, it seems i was mistaken'

i know this just boils down to more stats and doesn't give us a true reflection of his overall footballing contribution but it might help to stop one of the most boring and ill informed arguments of the last couple of seasons.

How will stop that statistic that he's not a good midfielder? you can do a pass forward, you can do a pass correctly stats wise, but your pass can be a load of problems for your receiver.

Most professionals players know the basics about how to pass, in Lucas' case I can't help but making :no

gesture 8 or 9 tames a game. Sometimes I wish we could see the game all together with images to point out, look here!, there are things that stat don't grab.

And I don't hate him, in fact I love his professionality and he seems a nice guy. It's just that for me he's got more opportunities than the typical footballer will have to succeed in a massive club, and that his football is not good enough.

That said, I'd be happy as fúck if we have an excellent season with Lucas being a regular player, I've been wrong before and I love to be wrong when it's for the team's good. But I'm too tired of his game.

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:10 am

Benny The Noon wrote:It quite simple to say what the problem was with Lucas last season and it is he isn't Alonso and people compare him instead of looking at him in his own right

he's not defensively minded full stop, at least he wasn't before he came here. it was almost as if rafa tried to turn him into something he wasn't. that's why the signing of poulsen is important because i wouldn't be confident of playing the better sides with lucas as our protection infront of the back four, especially with carra another year older.

you saw what he really could do in the home games against lille and benfica last season when he was let off the leash. he was running beyond the strikers, scored on, won a penalty and was generally outstanding.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:45 pm

Sabre wrote:
andy_g wrote:i'm not lucas' biggest fan, i think he's ok nothing more. but i do get tired of this 5 yard backward and sideways pass myth that every dicussion about him boils down to. so here's a simple excercise that might finish this tiresome debate once and for all.
step 1. go to http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards
step 2. click on the 'create a chalkboard now' link
step 3. from the menus select 2009/2010 then liverpool
step 4. select any match you like in which lucas played, then select lucas as the player
step 5. select passes as the stat you'd like to see and... voila!
step 6. compare the number of forward passes to the number of sideways and backwards ones (feel free to check up on free kicks won and conceded, tackles and other stuff too)
step 7. write post in the lucas leiva thread on newkit saying 'i'm terribly sorry everyone, it seems i was mistaken'

i know this just boils down to more stats and doesn't give us a true reflection of his overall footballing contribution but it might help to stop one of the most boring and ill informed arguments of the last couple of seasons.

How will stop that statistic that he's not a good midfielder? you can do a pass forward, you can do a pass correctly stats wise, but your pass can be a load of problems for your receiver.

Most professionals players know the basics about how to pass, in Lucas' case I can't help but making gesture 8 or 9 tames a game. Sometimes I wish we could see the game all together with images to point out, look here!, there are things that stat don't grab.

And I don't hate him, in fact I love his professionality and he seems a nice guy. It's just that for me he's got more opportunities than the typical footballer will have to succeed in a massive club, and that his football is not good enough.

That said, I'd be happy as fúck if we have an excellent season with Lucas being a regular player, I've been wrong before and I love to be wrong when it's for the team's good. But I'm too tired of his game.

Spot on Sabes... and nice to see you posting again more...

So what does the pass completion tell you? You may have passed successfully to your team mate, but your team mate might have to shield it from the opponent and then the opponent might have nicked it off from your team mate... the stats don't tell this..

Listen, anyone with a common sense knows that Lucas provides little for the team. Is his distribution good? no. Is his ball winning skill good? no. Is he able to carry the ball with decent pace? no. All he brings to the team is probably ball holding. He offers really nothing. I mean I don't hate him... but he is clearly one of the least useful players in the team, so much behind even Dirk Kuyt who alot of people on here slags off.

by **andy_g** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:21 pm

like i said at the end of that post. the stats don't tell us a lot about his overall effectiveness as a footballer in our team, but at least they might help people to make more informed statements than 'he only passes 5 yards sideways and backwards'.

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:23 pm

You don't need stats to tell you whether or not Lucas is good enough, you just need to open your eyes.

Sabre's post about him is spot on, it's the wieght of pass, the timing of it, the perception which is lacking. There's passing which in it's subtlety just bends the flow of the play into the direction you seek, and there's passing which disrupts the flow, making the play more steccato than anything else and it's this which Lucas produces more often than not.

It may be the case that playing with a more creative midfielder will enable him to look better, but I am absolutely convinced that his parnership with Masherano, the dreaded "axis", was the chief reason we had such a desperate season last time.

Someone asked earlier if Poulsen was "that much better than Lucas". Given we're paying 6 million quid for him, I sincerely hope that he is put it that way.

by **Sabre** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:56 pm

andy_g wrote:like i said at the end of that post. the stats don't tell us a lot about his overall effectiveness as a footballer in our team, but at least they might help people to make more informed statements than 'he only passes 5 yards sideways and backwards'.

Yeh, I know you said that and you also clarified you were not one of his biggest fans. It's just that the stats arguments make my alarms go off.

Despite Lucas has the flaws many can see, he's also been a classical forum scapegoat which means that at the end he receives repetitive and sometimes unfair stick.

by **taff** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:21 pm

If it was your job on the line would you have Lucas or Spearing.

by **andy_g** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:06 pm

depends if i liked my job or not

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:10 pm

Sabre wrote:Despite Lucas has the flaws many can see, he's also been a classical forum scapegoat which means that at the end he receives repetitive and sometimes unfair stick.

That's it in a nutshell for me. He doesn't particularly inspire me as a footballer and I don't have great confidence that he'll ever look the part as a CM at a club of Liverpool's stature. With that said, he gets so much criticism week in, week out that I find it hard not to want to stick up for the guy. He's rarely as bad as many make out but that's a long way from saying he's good enough to be anywhere near our starting 11.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:14 pm

by **Sabre** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:30 pm

LFC2K7: Your point?

by **andy_g** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:30 pm

pretty conclusive that then, mate

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:32 pm

Glad we cleared that one up

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:53 am

Even posting this I have little doubt some will still choose to dismiss it.... or refuse to view it such is their baffling loathing of the Lad ...... but you know what I like the Lad

Lucas ..... "Oh Yes it is "

by **andy_g** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:31 am

to be honest, in that video there is little to dispell the 'short and sideways pass' myth that i have been busy trying to dispell.

there are a couple of passes there that were alonso-esque though, and that ball recovering tackle is excellent.

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