Liverpool FC Forum

by **Scottbot** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:27 am

Benny The Noon wrote:Looking over the years gerrard has had his best seasons at either wide right or up higher behind Torres - the evidence is overwhelming .

I'd agree on that. His three best seasons were playing behind Torres 2 years ago, playing wide-right (not for every game mind) during our FA Cup season and his performance from the middle of the park in Houllier's final season.

However, if he's going to regain the form of two years ago (in that same spot behinf Torres) then he needs to find the step he lost season. He looked a little short of pace and quickness and it made a big difference.

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:52 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Looking over the years gerrard has had his best seasons at either wide right or up higher behind Torres - the evidence is overwhelming .

I'd agree on that. His three best seasons were playing behind Torres 2 years ago, playing wide-right (not for every game mind) during our FA Cup season and his performance from the middle of the park in Houllier's final season.

However, if he's going to regain the form of two years ago (in that same spot behinf Torres) then he needs to find the step he lost season. He looked a little short of pace and quickness and it made a big difference.

I agree with Benny too..... but for different reasons.

In the centre of the park, Gerrard needs a different type of partner if we're going to play 2 in central midfield. The reason he was shipped out to the right and then later into a more advance role in front of 2 defensive midfielders is NOT, IMO, because he's better in those 2 positions.

It's because he didn't have the right partner. It was better for the team's balance that he was used in those other positions. What he needs is a Didi type player when we play just 2 central midfielders. In the more continental setup that seems to be very popular these days when 2 central midfielders are enhanced by a more advanced attacking midfielder, he's not that good (albeit still a lot better than 95% out there). This is because, he simply cannot utilise his talents as a box-box midfielder..... there's simply not enough space when the midfield is crammed with 3 players.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that a 2 man midfield is the way to go.... clearly there are other formations which are better or more correctly, superior in Europe....

All I'm saying is if we want the best out of Gerrard in his best role (IMO)..... we'd do better with a 2 rather that 3 man midfield.

But as always, the team must come first. Whatever formation we choose, it must suit the strengths of ALL of our players, first and foremost.... not just Gerrard.

In fact, I would advocate that maybe in his later years, we should seriously consider moving him to central defence...... Many great midfielders have done it...... Sammer, Matthaus, Gullit...... Gerrard has similar tools and I can see no reason why he should be any different.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:35 pm

Drooling over the prospect of having top quality attacking players like J.Cole, Gerrard, Torres and Aquilani all starting for the side...

All tactics and setup discussion will have to wait until we actually conclude our transfers but from what i see now it seems like we are trying to play a short passing possession game that clearly suits the likes of Gerrard, Cole and Aquilani.... Need to either keep Mascherano or sign a dynamic player with excellent defensive positioning and awareness... Exciting times... Expect to see a lot of little triangles with players playing much closer to each other...

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:52 pm

Some potential lessons from today's friendly:

1) Roy seems interested in sticking with the 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 that we've used for the past few years (we've seen it in every match so far)

2) Roy may be thinking what many have suggested: dropping Gerrard back into CM and playing Cole in the hole (I think Aquilani is going to have to work very hard to get into the team if this is the case: he's too lightweight to partner Gerrard at CM, so he's got to compete directly with Cole IMO)

3) Roy is not shy about giving kids a game, which may be due to several factors: a) a necessity forced on him by the WC; b) a need to see what he's got in the pipeline first hand; c) a policy born of the fact that he's only got a meager transfer kitty and will need to cultivate homegrown talent; whatever the motivation, we may be seeing more kids getting a chance under Roy

4) We have the skeleton of a really promising team, with Joe Cole, Jovanovic, Aquilani and Aurelio enhancing our ability to play on-the-deck, pass and move football

5) We will, however, seriously struggle to put the ball in the net unless we buy good cover for Torres

6) Insua is not up to being our starting LB and should be sold to finance a move for Salcido or Figueroa (given Aurelio's injury record)

7) Jonjo Shelvey looks a good player, especially when passing the ball--some of his through balls today were excellent

8) Danny Wilson looks to be a cultured CB in the making; he needs to work on his decision-making, but all young CBs do; nonetheless, it was a promising debut

I'm sure there are other lessons, but those are my immediate post-match thoughts...

by **jimmy brighton** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:16 pm

as far as I'm concerned, the two argies can sod off well away from anfield and lets have the money to replace them.
Insua-not good enough
Masch-renegade :angry:

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:32 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Some potential lessons from today's friendly:

1) Roy seems interested in sticking with the 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 that we've used for the past few years (we've seen it in every match so far)

2) Roy may be thinking what many have suggested: dropping Gerrard back into CM and playing Cole in the hole (I think Aquilani is going to have to work very hard to get into the team if this is the case: he's too lightweight to partner Gerrard at CM, so he's got to compete directly with Cole IMO)

To keep it short I'll just comment on points 1 & 2...

I agree that Roy seems to favor the 4-2-3-1 formation that we have been using the last couple of seasons... I also agree that Gerrard seems to be playing deeper than ever, in a CM position that doesnt give him as much freedom as he usually had...

Now, i have 2 problems with all of that...

1. Joe Cole: As a good a player as he is, he's never going to score as many goals as Gerrard did.. Defensively, the team is going to have to carry him the same way it did Gerrard when he played the role.. To do that, Gerrard and his midfield partner are going to have to play a little deeper than they would like or else the back4 becomes a little exposed (as proven today)... Going forward against the smaller sides, it might actually be a risk worth taking.. However, Im still convinced that Gerrard playing that deep in most games would'nt be a good thing for the club at either end... The only solution is to have a top defensive midfielder playing alongside Gerrard to give him that bit of extra freedom THAT HE DEMANDS when playing the position... That pretty much rules out the likes of Ireland and Defour playing alongside Gerrard as part of a midfield pair...

2. Steven Gerrard: Besides the defensive gaps, theres another concern that comes with playing Gerrard in the middle... Almost too often, Gerrard tries to force the play.. Whether it be an intercepted through pass that he attempts, him dwelling on the ball for too long, or even simply a dribble in the middle of the park that doesnt come off, Gerrard for me simply loses possession far too many times and sometimes far too easily.. Controlling the tempo from deeper positions and bringing fullbacks into play arent Gerrard's strongest attributes... He has far too much urgency in his play to be playing that role... He's no Scholes or Carrick or Ballack... If we're going to be playing 4-2-3-1 with 2 CMs who contribute more going forward than they do defensively then we'll need to dominate possession against most sides and use that as an attacking-defensive strategy... If thats the case, I dont think having Gerrard down there would do much to aid the cause unless an Alonso-like figure is played alongside him...

Theres quite a few things that were made somewhat clear from todays friendly like you said.. for me, the main concerns seems to be:

1. We were left exposed at the back when we tried a Gerrard-Shelvey CM pairing... I think it will be pretty much the same if we try a Gerrard-Defour/Ireland pairing...

2. Gerrard and Joe Cole seem to have developed an understanding from minute 1 and we should be trying to utilize that partnership throughout the season...

3. Most of our play early on came from the middle with Gerrard-Shelvey-Cole connecting well... The likes of Jovanovic, Ince, Eccelston, Amoo..etc had very little impact .. Should we perhaps consider a formation similar to that employed by Chelsea ?

Mascherano
Gerrard Aquilani

JoeCole

Kuyt/Jova
Torres

4. Our back4 remain as vulnerable as ever... We seem to be playing a high line with our back4 pushing up... With Masch on his way out and reports of Defour/Petrov coming in, wouldnt that just add to our defensive frailties ?

by **Scottbot** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:25 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Some potential lessons from today's friendly:

2) Roy may be thinking what many have suggested: dropping Gerrard back into CM and playing Cole in the hole (I think Aquilani is going to have to work very hard to get into the team if this is the case: he's too lightweight to partner Gerrard at CM, so he's got to compete directly with Cole IMO)

3) Roy is not shy about giving kids a game, which may be due to several factors: a) a necessity forced on him by the WC; b) a need to see what he's got in the pipeline first hand; c) a policy born of the fact that he's only got a meager transfer kitty and will need to cultivate homegrown talent; whatever the motivation, we may be seeing more kids getting a chance under Roy

5) We will, however, seriously struggle to put the ball in the net unless we buy good cover for Torres

7) Jonjo Shelvey looks a good player, especially when passing the ball--some of his through balls today were excellent

Really good post mate and i'll focus on a few of your points.

2/ It deffo looks like a return to CM for Gerrard this season and i think you're right about Aquilani having his work cut out to win a spot ahead of Lucas (or whoever else we may buy) to get a spot alongside him. I personally think Cole play in all 3 positions behind the striker over the course of the year & my guess is he'll cement a place where he proves to be most effective. I still think that position may end up being left-mid in the formation we played today.

3/ Obviously the kids are getting a lot of game time because it's a World Cup year but I've no doubt he's having a really good look at them because we desperately need the likes of Darby, Kelly, Spearing, Shelvey and (fingers crossed) Pachecho to make contributions this season dues to being completely and utterly skint.

5/ Yep, completely buggered without a decent back-up for Torres. I don't care how much improvement Ngog makes this season or whether Kuyt has the odd decent game up-front, if we don't go out and buy a GENUINE alternative our season will be resting almost entirely on Fernando's shaky ability to stay fit.

7/ Really impressed with Shelvey. Agree with Ace and a few others who said he didn't quite gel with Gerrard and that is because he looks so much like a young Stevie.G It's uncanny. The way he runs, his physical attributes, the way he addresses the ball, a couple of the through balls and pinged first time passes, and even the foul from behind when he lost the ball, chased back and scissor tackled their player had the trademarks of a young Stevie. Players with GENUINE potential show you something right from the off, and that's the difference between this kid and the likes of Ecclestone. I think we'll have a helluva player on our hands in 18 months time.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:30 pm

aCe' wrote:1. Joe Cole: As a good a player as he is, he's never going to score as many goals as Gerrard did.. Defensively, the team is going to have to carry him the same way it did Gerrard when he played the role.. To do that, Gerrard and his midfield partner are going to have to play a little deeper than they would like or else the back4 becomes a little exposed (as proven today)... Going forward against the smaller sides, it might actually be a risk worth taking.. However, Im still convinced that Gerrard playing that deep in most games would'nt be a good thing for the club at either end... The only solution is to have a top defensive midfielder playing alongside Gerrard to give him that bit of extra freedom THAT HE DEMANDS when playing the position... That pretty much rules out the likes of Ireland and Defour playing alongside Gerrard as part of a midfield pair...

2. Steven Gerrard: Besides the defensive gaps, theres another concern that comes with playing Gerrard in the middle... Almost too often, Gerrard tries to force the play.. Whether it be an intercepted through pass that he attempts, him dwelling on the ball for too long, or even simply a dribble in the middle of the park that doesnt come off, Gerrard for me simply loses possession far too many times and sometimes far too easily.. Controlling the tempo from deeper positions and bringing fullbacks into play arent Gerrard's strongest attributes... He has far too much urgency in his play to be playing that role... He's no Scholes or Carrick or Ballack... If we're going to be playing 4-2-3-1 with 2 CMs who contribute more going forward than they do defensively then we'll need to dominate possession against most sides and use that as an attacking-defensive strategy... If thats the case, I dont think having Gerrard down there would do much to aid the cause unless an Alonso-like figure is played alongside him...

Good post mate. Spot on about Gerrard's partner in a midfield two. It's a tough one to get right but like anything it also depends on who you got ahead of him and in the wide areas. I've never really liked Gerrard and Masch together as midfield two. It's a good shout about having a Hamman type alongside him (ie. A defensive who can also pass it well + chip in with a goal or two) but I don't know how many Hamman types there are out there? I know he wasn't a popular choice but I actually think Gareth Barry would have been the perfect partner for Stevie (with Xabi gone of course) in our set-up.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:52 pm

Scottbot wrote:
aCe' wrote:1. Joe Cole: As a good a player as he is, he's never going to score as many goals as Gerrard did.. Defensively, the team is going to have to carry him the same way it did Gerrard when he played the role.. To do that, Gerrard and his midfield partner are going to have to play a little deeper than they would like or else the back4 becomes a little exposed (as proven today)... Going forward against the smaller sides, it might actually be a risk worth taking.. However, Im still convinced that Gerrard playing that deep in most games would'nt be a good thing for the club at either end... The only solution is to have a top defensive midfielder playing alongside Gerrard to give him that bit of extra freedom THAT HE DEMANDS when playing the position... That pretty much rules out the likes of Ireland and Defour playing alongside Gerrard as part of a midfield pair...

2. Steven Gerrard: Besides the defensive gaps, theres another concern that comes with playing Gerrard in the middle... Almost too often, Gerrard tries to force the play.. Whether it be an intercepted through pass that he attempts, him dwelling on the ball for too long, or even simply a dribble in the middle of the park that doesnt come off, Gerrard for me simply loses possession far too many times and sometimes far too easily.. Controlling the tempo from deeper positions and bringing fullbacks into play arent Gerrard's strongest attributes... He has far too much urgency in his play to be playing that role... He's no Scholes or Carrick or Ballack... If we're going to be playing 4-2-3-1 with 2 CMs who contribute more going forward than they do defensively then we'll need to dominate possession against most sides and use that as an attacking-defensive strategy... If thats the case, I dont think having Gerrard down there would do much to aid the cause unless an Alonso-like figure is played alongside him...

Good post mate. Spot on about Gerrard's partner in a midfield two. It's a tough one to get right but like anything it also depends on who you got ahead of him and in the wide areas. I've never really liked Gerrard and Masch together as midfield two. It's a good shout about having a Hamman type alongside him (ie. A defensive who can also pass it well + chip in with a goal or two) but I don't know how many Hamman types there are out there? I know he wasn't a popular choice but I actually think Gareth Barry would have been the perfect partner for Stevie (with Xabi gone of course) in our set-up.

I dont think we'll find many players who would be able to tick all the right boxes... My main concern is us being caught on the counter... Having an Alonso or Hamann like player alongside Gerrard would probably look good on paper but wouldnt do much to help that particular problem on the pitch...

I'd much rather we played a proper holding midfielder who sits there in front of the back line covering opposition to try and break counter attacking opportunities... A player like Busquets, DEJONG, MELO, Hargreaves...etc would be my preference.. Someone who has the legs to cover and track back at the defensive end and has the footballing ability to recycle & retain possession when needed..

That would not only allow us to have Gerrard playing a relatively more natural game of his, it would also allow us to have an Aquilani/Ireland/Defour out there controlling the tempo and dictating the play from a little higher up the pitch...

The back4 would have a little more protection but they'll still be vulnerable on the counter imo... Still better than having the 2 CMs though...
At the other end, Gerrard and Aquilani could attack from deeper with Cole playing a roaming role from the left side (similar to Gerrard for England ?)

What i noticed about Hodgsons side is that he focuses on having players moving close to each other to help with keeping possession and creating opportunities... This setup i feel would give us better "pairings" or "triangles" if you will, all over the pitch...

by **Scottbot** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:00 pm

aCe' wrote:What i noticed about Hodgsons side is that he focuses on having players moving close to each other to help with keeping possession and creating opportunities... This setup i feel would give us better "pairings" or "triangles" if you will, all over the pitch...

Deffo, it's been a hall mark of all of Hodgson's teams over the years and he has talked about returning to a style more akin to the Liverpool of old.

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:55 pm

Some brilliant football posts on the thread. To be totally honest I'm going slightly against the flow and saying I was bit disappointed with us today. I know it's not been easy as we've hardly had chance to work together, but the Shelvey/Gerrard pairing was positively shambolic at times and it should have been sorted. Given the fact that we all know what Gerrard can do anyway, I couldn't for the life of me understand why he didn't just sit in and give the kid license to get foward. I say that whether or not Roy had told him to sit, he's an experienced enough player now to read the situation and act accordingly. As it was, him and the kid were almost cancelling each other out they were so similar, and each time we lost the ball we were under threat. I know Roy is well known for having his teams play very compact, well hopefully that's what we're going to be working on from now on.

Cole also disappointed me a bit, and once more I was a little concerned with just how much license he was given to roam. I felt the same about Aquilani in the previous game, and these "in the hole" players are going to have to get it into their heads that they do actually have to contribute a little more than a flick here and a flick there. Neither Cole nor Aquilani bothered closing anybody down, both dropped extremely deep at times, and neither were anywhere near so effective as Gerrard is in there. Benitez certainly wouldn't have stood for such obvious lack of application, and IMHO at least Roy would do well to let these players know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them.

Neither of them are good enough to be carried, and we aren't good enough to carry anyone anyway.

by **dawson99** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:55 pm

Mick, have you ever seen us play decent pre-season football?
We normally get totally embarressed pre-season, it's our way

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:58 pm

dawson99 wrote:Mick, have you ever seen us play decent pre-season football?
We normally get totally embarressed pre-season, it's our way

Very true Daws', but particularly calamitous pre season campaigns are normally followed by awful starts. For me it's about habits. Cole and Aquilani are both new players for us to all intents and purposes, and to me Roy should be letting them and everyone else know what he expects. Perhaps he is of course behind closed doors.

Anyone who watched Arsenal play today though and watched us play, will know that in horse racing parlance we are very much in need of a run in comparison to them.

by **only me** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:10 pm

Very disappointed in seeing Aurellio and Insua back in the picture ,i would have really liked to see Roy unloading our untalented players and yet we are still here with Those two including Lucas and Babel...This is a very negative Omen for me...

by **Scottbot** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:40 pm

bigmick wrote:Some brilliant football posts on the thread. To be totally honest I'm going slightly against the flow and saying I was bit disappointed with us today. I know it's not been easy as we've hardly had chance to work together, but the Shelvey/Gerrard pairing was positively shambolic at times and it should have been sorted. Given the fact that we all know what Gerrard can do anyway, I couldn't for the life of me understand why he didn't just sit in and give the kid license to get foward. I say that whether or not Roy had told him to sit, he's an experienced enough player now to read the situation and act accordingly. As it was, him and the kid were almost cancelling each other out they were so similar, and each time we lost the ball we were under threat. I know Roy is well known for having his teams play very compact, well hopefully that's what we're going to be working on from now on.

Cole also disappointed me a bit, and once more I was a little concerned with just how much license he was given to roam. I felt the same about Aquilani in the previous game, and these "in the hole" players are going to have to get it into their heads that they do actually have to contribute a little more than a flick here and a flick there. Neither Cole nor Aquilani bothered closing anybody down, both dropped extremely deep at times, and neither were anywhere near so effective as Gerrard is in there. Benitez certainly wouldn't have stood for such obvious lack of application, and IMHO at least Roy would do well to let these players know in no uncertain terms what is expected of them.

Neither of them are good enough to be carried, and we aren't good enough to carry anyone anyway.

I don't think you're going against the grain mate, I think most were a bit disappointed that we didn't create much today even though it's a friendly game. I know it didn't really work but I think you're overplaying the Gerrard/Shelvey partnership a bit because for me our problem areas were out wide. They looked at their most dangerous when running at our full-backs and when we were in possession, once again the two young lads on the wings really struggled to keep the ball or effect play. The same applied to Like young Valle up-front. Swap Babel for Ecclestone and Kuyt for Ince and I'll bet the Gerrard/Shelvey partnership looks a lot more effective.

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