Liverpool FC Forum

by **Big Niall** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:12 pm

lfc finishing 7th is a disgrace and he deserved to be fired. It is just sad that people like managers and bankers get paid millions of pounds to go away when they have failed.

If players leave it won't be because benitez is gone but because he has left a shambles of a squad behind - 7th is proof of this.

by **tubby** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:15 pm

Big Niall wrote:lfc finishing 7th is a disgrace and he deserved to be fired. It is just sad that people like managers and bankers get paid millions of pounds to go away when they have failed.

If players leave it won't be because benitez is gone but because he has left a shambles of a squad behind - 7th is proof of this.

Oh really? What happened to the whole

"the squad is good enough to challange, they just want Rafa out and everything will be fine" argument :glare:

Maybe now you will all realise he was the only thing keeping this squad together. The players were :censored:

off, but not art him! At the owners. Why do they think they kept saying we need 4 or 5 top quality players?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:21 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
redmikey wrote:
Owzat wrote:
bavlondon wrote:I thought the club was bigger that any individual

Yet all the pro-Rafas are abusing everyone for expressing their opinion on ONE PERSON who is no longer at the club. I suggest they go support whoever he moves to if they can't accept he has gone and not everyone is crying themselves to sleep over it.

He came here to do a job, he failed to do it, he's gone, get over it - and yourselves people.

I hope it wasn't anyone from here stating on SSN that Souness finished 14th in the league! Last time we finished below 10th we were relegated. Perhaps that was why people wanted Rafa to stay, try to get us relegated because the last time that happened we came back up and wrote history. Maybe Rafa's work was unfinished.......................

Cue abuse by people so simple they should be wearing blue

JUST CANNOT SEE HOW YOU CAN COMPARE THE TWO CLOWN

rafa is the manager that took us to the great teams in europe and out played them in there own back yards, rafa has put the best spine in our team on a budget , reina,masha,agger,torres. souness was a t!t

i am sure you just enjoy winding people up, rafa made loads of mistakes and i believe his head had gone down after last year when we had our record points total and we still didn't win the league and he did'nt get any money to add players he wanted, villa before the euros 2 years ago.

ok if you didn't like the man but as a purely football fan look at how good we were last year on the run in, awesome football we palyed and i reckon it was rafa just stopped worring and let the lads attack like his valencia side used to.

I'm happy to accept all opinions on this subject but don't be fucking arrogant to suggest those who wanted rafa to go are wrong or clueless.

The last poll taken on this forum amongst supporters who are as dedicated to this club as you, voted in a majority for him to leave.

Don't be a mug.

A popular opinion isn't necessarily an intelligent or informed one.

by **Reg** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:09 pm

Houllier had come to the end of his tenure, people were disappointed when he was sacked but minor compared to Rafa leaving. Clearly Rafa hadnt come to a natural end and the guy had plenty left to offer. His availability this summer is a gift to other clubs.

by **zarababe** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:13 pm

Big Niall wrote:lfc finishing 7th is a disgrace and he deserved to be fired. It is just sad that people like managers and bankers get paid millions of pounds to go away when they have failed.

If players leave it won't be because benitez is gone but because he has left a shambles of a squad behind - 7th is proof of this.

Wake-up BN you'll regret these words I asssure you. We had it good, those European nights, you'll ache for them matey.

Last season was appaulling, no doubt, but so is what is goin on at our club- rather reflective of what Rafa's role became.

One bad season, may be many more now !

by **Penguins** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:47 pm

Big Niall wrote:lfc finishing 7th is a disgrace and he deserved to be fired. It is just sad that people like managers and bankers get paid millions of pounds to go away when they have failed.

If players leave it won't be because benitez is gone but because he has left a shambles of a squad behind - 7th is proof of this.

Talk about a narrowminded view.

So if the next manager came in and Torres, gerrard and Masch wanted to leave and he got no money to buy replacement you are one of those fans who would still demand the head of the manager if we finished 7th-8th. And Why?

"Cause it is lfc"... :no

Zero net spend the next 5 years and a 7th place finish?
Sack the manager cause that is not acceptable since it is lfc? :no

by **Rush Job** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:46 pm

DAV wrote:so someone on here wants other members banned because they do not agree with them.
Maybe Mark Lawrenson and other ex playes should be banned from Anfield to, as i gather their opinions are not welcome either.
How sad.
I find it funny that members of here say people arnt proper Liverpool Supporters if others do not agree with their views

GROW UP

Lawrenson should be banned from anfield as far as I`m concerned.
If I met him I`d put my foot right up his "corridor of uncertancy".

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:27 am

Owzat wrote:How exactly is Rafa a "success" where every manager since Dalglish is apparently a failure? Oh, because he won the Champions League must be the 'how'.

Been meaning to do a comparison, yes that's right whoever the idiot was who thought I was comparing Benitez and Souness, a comparison between the two who bear most comparing.

Rafa Benitez vs Gerard Houllier

Premiership

Rafa Benitez : Runner-up x1, 3rd place x2, 4th place x1 (5th place x1, 7th place x1)
Gerard Houllier : Runner-up x1, 3rd place x1. 4th place x2 (5th place x1, 7th place x1)

FA Cup

Rafa Benitez : Winner 2006
Gerard Houllier : Winner 2001

League Cup

Rafa Benitez : Runner-up 2005
Gerard Houllier : Winner 2001 & 2003

Europe

Rafa Benitez : Champions League Winner 2005, Champions League Runner-up 2007
Gerard Houllier : UEFA Cup Winner 2001

UEFA Super Cup

Rafa Benitez : Winner 2005
Gerard Houllier : Winner 2001

So in essence both had very similar records in the league in terms of finishes, all but identical bar Rafa had two 3rd place finishes to Houllier's one. Major trophies, both won the FA Cup, UEFA Super Cup once and both won a European trophy except Rafa's is more prestigious. Houllier won two League Cups to Rafa's none. The number of teams entering the CL has changed so it is hard to compare success in Europe on a level playing field, of course with more top teams playing in the Champions League it means the UEFA Cup is weaker than it was when Houllier won it.

So both records are similar, I guess Rafa's will always be held in higher regard because he won the big (eared) trophy whereas Houllier didn't. Maybe if Houllier had had SIX shots at it then he might have won it, many will point out it was mostly his signings that won the thing for Rafa anyway! But the bottom line is neither won the league which is what they came here to do, both had successes in cups, and some good finishes in the league, but between them they have added another 12 years to the wait for number 19.

Evans didn't do badly either, finished 3rd twice and 4th twice as well as winning the League Cup and reaching an FA Cup final. Had teams finishing in the top four all got into the Champions League then, perhaps he too could be fairly compared with his successors. He didn't finish second, although he did finish level on points with second in one season, and he didn't get as long in charge.

Souness on the other hand is one manager I wouldn't bother comparing with his successors, except to expose how bad he was. He started the decline, or arguably Kenny did by leaving and the board by appointing Souness. We had title winning quality players before Souness made sure they were cleared out and replaced by rubbish. Evans did well to turn things around, gave Houllier a better starting point than Evans had been given

It would have been interesting to see how Gerry would have coped against Chelsea, tottenham and man city with all their pennies, though, wouldn't it?

by **KennyisGod....still** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:11 am

tell you what I'll find intrestin - whiskeynose won bugger all in his first few yrs over there, but was given TIME and PATIENCE and CHANCE to do his job. look where they are now......

this aint sport now, its business. my guess is turn the clock back but with todays priorities he wouldnt be there any longer than GH an RB were at Anfield, can you imagine the stuff on here if a manager comes in an spends 5-6 yrs winnin ABSOLUTELY bugger all? Jeez, we won a CL, an FA Cup an took a runners up spot in the most prestigious trophy in europe within Rafa's reign. So what if it all harks back to that? Cuz aint that around the time donald an mickey showed their faces an changed the ethos of this club?

I support Liverpool, I supported our manager, an will support whoever comes in to replace him. dont mean i'm happy Rafa was pushed thru th door. all those that see a bright new dawn, the futures red an all that bol0x - i suggest you take a seat, a good look at yourselves an question a little bit deeper than th phrase "cuz this is LFC an we shud be winnin stuff". those days are long gone. til we get owners prepared to use their own money, not mortgage the place beyond the hilt, buy players that can complemement a squad an not hav to sell FIRST TEAM PLAYERS to do so, quit makin promises to th manager, th coachin staff, th players an th fans then we're goin nowhere rapidly.

but thats jus an opinion. ur welcome to urs too.

by **JohnBull** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:19 am

If there had been any sign that the 5 year plan was coming to fruition I'd have supported Rafa to stay.
Fergie in the same situation was just ONE player away from success, Cantona.
All that was on the horizon here was another then another then another 5 year plan while he allowed the problems with the owners to distract him from the job in hand. If he had been given unlimited funds and allowed to go after any player that took his fancy does anyone REALLY believe that there would have been a different ending ?
The wonderful European nights under Rafa happened before he came and I believe will happen again, whoever takes over.
I get the impression that lessons have been learnt from this fiasco, unfortunately the one person who should have been on a learning curve throughout this period was Rafa and he refused to see the obvious.
You can look at those teams who display unlimited spending power and see that it doesn't guarantee success. This obsession with "transfer funds" is being used as an excuse for poor management.
I wish Rafa well but for his sake I hope that he's learnt a little from this sad period. It's hard enough fighting on one front, The Premiership, without starting another war with the owners who, at the end of the day, are no different from all the other grabbing carpetbaggers in this league.

Sad, there was a real chance to break the mold with the players we've got. He just lost his focus on the important target.

by **tubby** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:06 am

Liverpool dancing in the dark without guidance of Benitez

By Dion Fanning

Sunday June 06 2010

We are drifting on a sea of garbage accompanied only by hopeless bullshitters. It was no surprise that the departure of Rafael Benitez brought out the worst in what can loosely be described as his enemies.

Benitez' problem, and the reason his inspired reign as Liverpool's manager had to end, was that his ability to ignore the opinions of people who didn't matter had been irreversibly damaged by the battles he was forced -- and occasionally elected -- to fight.

In his mind, they were all his enemies in the end. But they were out to get him.

Sky Sports love talking to a man with nothing to say and they found an egregious bunch in the wake of Benitez' departure, speaking and thinking in clichés, led, as always, by Jamie Redknapp.

Next season promised more paranoia and more desperate justification. Much of what Benitez achieved -- the European Cup, the re-establishment of Liverpool as a force in Europe, the legacy (for a few more weeks, anyway) of world-class players -- didn't need to be justified, it was understood by those who needed to understand. At his peak, Benitez knew this. Recently, like Gerard Houllier, he had started to list his achievements and it wasn't going to end well.

A couple of weeks ago, Benitez walked onto the stage at the Liverpool Empire and danced beside the cast of a play about Istanbul. It wasn't ill-advised, it was fatally ill-advised. It may have been his low point as Liverpool manager.

It pointed to the insanity to come, but things got a lot worse for Liverpool last week when they rustled up a deal to get rid of the one man who understood the games that were being played. Benitez left listening to the same :censored:

he had to put up with for six years. Now it was even more serious.

There is a fierce refusal by most commentators to deal with the complexities of life. They see the Liverpool story as another football story, they talk about the list of contenders with a straight face as they open up the market to include Guus Hiddink or bemoan the timing that now rules Jose Mourinho out.

They refuse to see what is happening. This is the slow dismantling of a football club. The one man who would put up a fight as Liverpool's prize assets were being sold is gone. The least surprising piece of official information last week was that Liverpool were in no hurry to make an appointment. They could save a couple of months' wages if they delay. More significantly, if there is no manager, there is no man to ask if he might see some of the money for the sale of the players Benitez improved while at the club.

He was, they said, fired for finishing in seventh place. Many suggested that the squad Benitez left behind is worse than the one he inherited. Two words should shoot down that argument: Salif Diao. Still debating, take another two: El-Hadji Diouf. What about a mixture of words and numbers: £14m for Djibril Cisse. Bruno Cheyrou and Anthony le Tallec were there when Benitez arrived. I haven't mentioned Djimi Traore. Benitez won the European Cup with him.

He competed too, not all the time, but above Liverpool's capabilities given their wage bill -- the fifth highest in the league -- which is linked inextricably to how a club performs. Benitez wasn't allowed to gather a squad. Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia went so Fernando Torres could come in. He made a mess of his relationship with Xabi Alonso but still managed to triple the price for the player and the money went on servicing debt.

On Wednesday night, it was suggested that the reason for Benitez' departure was the need to placate the star players. When the star players got to hear about this, they were understandably upset that they were the device being used to justify the change.

There are enough suckers out there with short-term memories to sign up to that. By Friday, Torres, Javier Mascherano and Steven Gerrard were said to be leaving anyway. Benitez had lost the dressing-room but the dressing-room was up for sale.

This is the reality. If Torres and Mascherano stay, there is an argument for getting rid of Benitez. If they go, there isn't. Redknapp suggested Liverpool didn't trust him to spend £30m. Perhaps Tom Hicks and George Gillett just didn't trust the builders either and that's why there's no new stadium.

The fans knew this and they were pilloried for it too. It turns out that the media needs the fickleness of supporters because they don't know what to do but mock when it's not there.

There is no logical reason to appoint Roy Hodgson. He had a fine record prior to last season but Benitez had a better one. Liverpool are now judging managers on the basis of one season, good or bad. In another time, Sam Allardyce would have been the leading contender.

One report may have got to the truth about the eagerness to appoint Hodgson, a thoroughly decent man. "Hodgson, in contrast, is seen as a manager who will concentrate more on sorting out the many problems Liverpool face on the pitch rather than being involved in disrupting things behind the scenes."

Things are going so well behind the scenes that it will be a relief for Liverpool fans to know that their manager will not be disrupting them. Benitez had become caught up in the feuds. But at Liverpool, more than nearly any other club, it would be hard not to come to the conclusion that there was somebody else to blame.

Hicks and Gillett wanted to fire him before he even signed Torres, his outstanding purchase. But he stayed and fought them. He turned Gerrard into a truly effective player until last season when Gerrard turned in on himself and became a liability, not the man carrying the team as most pundits declared.

Benitez never gave him a break, he never gave anyone a break. He was Lieutenant Columbo and there was always one more thing.

He was always mad. But the good ones are all mad in their inability to see reason and another's point of view as things that have any bearing on how they do their job. "Like all madmen," Tolstoy said, "I thought everyone was mad except myself."

Benitez had good reason to think it. Working for Hicks and Gillett, he encountered, not only insanity, but greed and duplicity too. By the time he did his desperate jig at the Liverpool Empire, it was over. Liverpool are now dancing in the dark.

dfanning@independent.ie

- Dion Fanning

Sunday Independent

by **shabelle50** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:14 am

Hodgson is just not a top notch manager. People talk about Fulham and their UEFA cup run last season but where were they in the PL? Mid-table not that far from the drop zone. How would Hodgson fare if he had £20 million or £30 million to spend just on one player? Supposing new owners came in and Hodgson had a packet for new players. I'd rather have Mark Hughes in all honesty and even he hasn't proved himself yet as a top manager. Liverpool need someone experienced who has won titles abroad Van Gaal is pretty solid but beyond him there's not too many candidates. Whether the club are willing to take another risk on a Deschamps, Blanc or someone like Strachan, Curbishley or McLeish is another matter. I don't think it will be Hodgson - my guess is something will have to give and it will be one of the foreign ones like Hiddink, Rijkaard or Van Gaal.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:23 am

Fantastic Article by Fanning that Bav, sums it up.

by **tubby** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:25 am

That was good nan...but this one is better.

Quote:
When Kenny Dalglish – or as he will soon be renamed "Kingmaker Kenny" – conducts his first interview for the role of manager of Liverpool Football Club it will be interesting to hear him set out the job description. We can only pray he speaks very slowly and very honestly. For it is only fair the candidates be made completely aware of what is expected of them.

But then, we all know Dalglish won't really be involved in the process and that he's only been called upon to douse the anger of the mutineers. It'll be down to whichever puppet the owners/board choose. Whoever it is – whether it's the chairman, chief executive or a £10,000-an hour headhunter – they will have to be some salesman. A smooth-talker whose next assignment will not be to sell sand to the Arabs but sell a debt- ridden club to the Arabs. Perhaps the spiel to the prospective gaffer should go something like this...

"Right let's get down to it – the last chap was a disaster. Rafa Benitez failed dismally. In six seasons he reached only two Champions' League finals, winning only one of them to go alongside his one FA Cup. How dare he? And don't even get us started about the Premier League. Do you know it took him five seasons to lead the club to its best League season in 19 years. Five seasons? I ask you, how much time did he want?

"Yes, yes, 2008-09 was rather promising on the face of it, losing just two games and collecting more points than any other runner-up in the history of the League. But we found out what he was about in the next campaign. Way down in seventh, a whole seven points off the fourth-place finish with which we would have been satisfied. It couldn't go on, so it didn't. Particularly when the press came on side and started printing the myths dressed up as damning statistics.

"Benitez signed more than 70 players for more than £240m. True, 30 of them were youth players and he did sell quite a few, too. In fact, when you do the actual maths his net spend is more like £80m, less than Spurs and, of course, less than Manchester City in the same period. But £240m sounds better, don't you think? And the wages? Well, yes, ours are about three-quarters of United's and Chelsea's, but what's that got to do with anything? This ungrateful man thought just because the new owners have given him virtually nowt to spend since they took over in 2007 he could whinge about it. Couldn't he see we're all suffering here? That even poor old George and Tom, as hard as they have tried, have been forced to put the club £350m in debt.

"So, you'll understand, we had to get rid of him. He would definitely have caused a fuss when we sold Torres and Gerrard and gave him £15m for squad strengthening. You wouldn't mind managing without those two would you? After all, Rafa effectively had to last season, with the Spaniard always injured and the new England captain in the worst form of his career.

"Still, there was no need for anyone to focus on that when they could blame him for selling Xabi Alonso and bringing in Alberto Aquilani. The most outrageous thing was that we only made £10m because of that piece of dreadful business. No, he had to go and now we have to go for a manager able to mask the cracks as we move ever deeper into the red and try to sell this club for a price it is simply not worth.

"So here's what we expect from the new boss in a nutshell. You must qualify for the Champions' League every year, winning it more often than once every six years and reaching the final every three years; you must do better in the Premier League than simply finishing a better second than any team before; and you must do all this on a smaller budget than your rivals, despite the fact everybody will claim otherwise. Do all that – and more importantly do it without moaning – and you'll be a hero in Liverpool and Texas. And please don't suffer one bad season that may or may not be a blip. Because you'll never be able to prove it was a blip. Because we'll get rid of you straight away and Fleet Street will applaud us for doing so.

"The fans? To hell with them. Thanks to those who we will soon have to call our 'friends in the press', the Anfield faithful can be dismissed as being more deluded than those cultists in Waco. Didn't you know they only stuck by Rafa because they had made him the figurehead for their protests. Well, that's what the columnists said anyway. It soon became accepted as a journalistic truth that the Liverpool support was 'in denial' when it came to Rafa and that in their hatred of the Americans they couldn't spot his inadequacies. Insulting? Perhaps just a little bit, considering we're talking here about fans who have consistently proved to be among the most knowledgeable. But it did the trick. They were talking rubbish – Rafa was rubbish. Had to go.

"So that brings us nicely on to you. How can you say no? Liverpool is a massive club, as you well know. And if we're bought out by some rich Arabs one day we might again have the finances of a massive club. To be honest, I wouldn't expect that to be Dubai now as they're more skint than we are. But someone with bottomless pockets will turn up. You just need to give off the illusion this club are as big as they ever were while we're waiting.

"So if you will just sign here, Mr Hiddink? Mr Hiddink? Mr Hiddink? Please don't slam the door, we've only just mended it from when Souness left...

"Valerie, get me Dalglish on the phone. Ask him if he would be kind enough to stop the fans from rioting, will you?"

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:28 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:
redmikey wrote:
Owzat wrote:
bavlondon wrote:I thought the club was bigger that any individual

Yet all the pro-Rafas are abusing everyone for expressing their opinion on ONE PERSON who is no longer at the club. I suggest they go support whoever he moves to if they can't accept he has gone and not everyone is crying themselves to sleep over it.

He came here to do a job, he failed to do it, he's gone, get over it - and yourselves people.

I hope it wasn't anyone from here stating on SSN that Souness finished 14th in the league! Last time we finished below 10th we were relegated. Perhaps that was why people wanted Rafa to stay, try to get us relegated because the last time that happened we came back up and wrote history. Maybe Rafa's work was unfinished.......................

Cue abuse by people so simple they should be wearing blue

JUST CANNOT SEE HOW YOU CAN COMPARE THE TWO CLOWN

rafa is the manager that took us to the great teams in europe and out played them in there own back yards, rafa has put the best spine in our team on a budget , reina,masha,agger,torres. souness was a t!t

i am sure you just enjoy winding people up, rafa made loads of mistakes and i believe his head had gone down after last year when we had our record points total and we still didn't win the league and he did'nt get any money to add players he wanted, villa before the euros 2 years ago.

ok if you didn't like the man but as a purely football fan look at how good we were last year on the run in, awesome football we palyed and i reckon it was rafa just stopped worring and let the lads attack like his valencia side used to.

I'm happy to accept all opinions on this subject but don't be fucking arrogant to suggest those who wanted rafa to go are wrong or clueless.

The last poll taken on this forum amongst supporters who are as dedicated to this club as you, voted in a majority for him to leave.

Don't be a mug.

A popular opinion isn't necessarily an intelligent or informed one.

You're 100% right Lando but a majority vote is also indicative that something must be wrong and attributed to the manager alone.

The owners no doubt are crippling the club but a lot of us here had problems with the fundamental management tactics employed by Rafa. He was clearly hindered in the transfer market by the owners but tactically he made too many mistakes

Last years was a great example. The previous year we finished 2nd, subsequently lost Alonso and then follow up with losing 19 games this season and finishing 7th.

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