Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Chelsea won the league twice with three centre backs. End of.

Unfortunately it's neither "end of" nor true. Chelsea actually had 4 and a half centre halves if you include Essien who can play there quite well.

John Terry, Ricardo Carvallho, William Gallas and Robert Huth were the other four. You do need four credible centre backs.

That, is end of.

Mick, stop trying to make a debate out of nothing. Essien is NOT a centre back.

It's a matter of opinion about Essien being a centre back mate, but the other four most certainly are.

by **burjennio** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:10 pm

redhayesy wrote:
bigmick wrote:
burjennio wrote:Good to see all the old doom n gloomers out in force to heap scorn on the usual suspects, Lucas in particular, who anyone but the most self-opinionated tw*t could see was one of the better players in a red shirt today, Don't see any of you mentioning that Fernando Torres had an absolute shocker but some players are always exempt from criticism in the eyes of some. We're all in agreement that Babel was dire but I see its took 1 f*cking game for some kn*bhead to mention how much we missed Xabi Alonso - some of you really hammer home the old addage that misery loves company - you must all lead truely miserable lives becasue newsflash - ITS ONE F*CKING GAME against a very good side that will be a tough match for everyone this season, especially at White Hart Lane. But as expected to some this means that LFC, Benitez, Lucas etc are all incompetent and [INSERT IDIOTS NAME HERE] was right the whole time

Might as well name names fella, who you on about

it's all about opinions mate? so mine is Lucas proved once an forall he is out of his depth at LFC. he was un-productive when he got the ball,didn't pass with any convition,creativity etc.

so if you are naming me as one of the self opinionated tw@ts -so be it. i'm entitled to my opinion end of. so for the record please give me one example were you thought Lucas played well today. or even contributed in anything positive in our alround perforfance.

he treates the ball like a hot potatoe,he sh1tes out of challenges,then when he makes a half hearted attempt to win the ball,he makes a foul through lack of pace etc. in the most demanding role of the side in midfield he lacks the most important quality -attitude, to compansate for his lack of ability.

i'm not a doom & gloomer-far from it,however i'm fecking frustrated with certain players who are given a golden opportunity to play in the first team time an time again only to show feck all commitment an determination to justify their selection, why would they lack confidence? to be given a chance first game of the season for whatever reason should be an ego boost of the highest order! they should run till they drop,challenge every ball an give every effort in whatever their posistion demands. neither Lucas or babel showed any of these for me,so imo deserve critisism.

if in the next game they are picked,cause it will happen -they prove me wrong an give the performance of their lives -i will be the first one to acknowledge it believe me,untill then as in so many games they have shown,they will show lack of attitude etc an deserve critisism.

I need you to tell me how in your eyes Lucas takes so much of the blame today?, You ask me to mention what he did today well with the exception of a great run from Glen Johnston what did anyone do well today? The whole team performance was sub-par but I will say that Lucas didnt give the ball away once, was more tactically aware than the far more highly rated Mascherano, made several good tackles and blocks and was more involved and influencial in the game than our talisman Fernando Torres, who was f*cking awful yet gets not a mention but Lucas gets slaughtered despite amm the factors I mentioned above. He doesn't pass like Alonso, he doesn't have the athleticism of Gerrard. WHO DOES?

FWIW you were not one of the doom and gloomers I mentioned but when you criticize a player who doesn't deserve it I think you should not let your pre-conceived opinion influence your assessment of an individual performance

by **Emerald Red** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:13 pm

bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Chelsea won the league twice with three centre backs. End of.

Unfortunately it's neither "end of" nor true. Chelsea actually had 4 and a half centre halves if you include Essien who can play there quite well.

John Terry, Ricardo Carvallho, William Gallas and Robert Huth were the other four. You do need four credible centre backs.

That, is end of.

Mick, stop trying to make a debate out of nothing. Essien is NOT a centre back.

It's a matter of opinion about Essien being a centre back mate, but the other four most certainly are.

They'd three recognized centre halfs. I specifically remember Mourinho spitting the dummy over not having enough cover for centre backs at Abramovich. The season after Essien played there.

by **bunglemark2** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:21 pm

Just watching MOTD....Torres was even worse than I thought....

by **burjennio** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:25 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:Just watching MOTD....Torres was even worse than I thought....

the 2 late penalty decisions look even worse now!

f*ck you Phil Dowd, f*ck you :angry:

by **TheLad** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:27 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:Just watching MOTD....Torres was even worse than I thought....

Actually Torres did get some support quite a few times in the last 20 minutes or so, but was **** poor on the ball, it will be truly hard for us if he doesn't find his form again.

by **bunglemark2** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:29 pm

burjennio wrote:
bunglemark2 wrote:Just watching MOTD....Torres was even worse than I thought....

the 2 late penalty decisions look even worse now!

f*ck you Phil Dowd, f*ck you

Looks like the ref didn't have the cojones to give 2 pens against the home team in the same match....
We can't be relying on pens though to win against the likes of Supdz
Rafa seems to think the ref was a bit iffy anyway....

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:30 pm

MICK- John Terry, Ricardo Carvallho, William Gallas and Robert Huth were the other four. You do need four credible centre backs.

EMERALD-They'd three recognized centre halfs. I specifically remember Mourinho spitting the dummy over not having enough cover for centre backs at Abramovich.

"Three recognised centre backs", even though I've named the FOUR for you

Ok mate, I can't argue with that, we must simply agree to differ

.

by **burjennio** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:34 pm

good to see Owen missing that chance again, its a small consolation

by **Simari** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:09 pm

The_Rock wrote:
Ciggy wrote:How can Spurs have Pavlechenco, Crouch, Defo, and Keane. 4 strikers.

And Liverpool have Ngog, Voronin, and Torres?

Rafa out !!!

We could have had Torres, Keane, Voronin and Ngog if it wasn't for benitez...... Remember how he treated Keane.

If we still had keane.....gerrard could easily drop into midfield and benayoun can go to the left ......

and Keane would keep missing easy chances like he did today for the Spuds

by **Owzat** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:26 pm

bigmick wrote:"Three recognised centre backs", even though I've named the FOUR for you Ok mate, I can't argue with that, we must simply agree to differ .

I think Emerald may be referring to the 06/07 season when Mourinho let Gallas go in p/ex for Cashley and also let Hoof go to boro. That left them painfully short of CBs and ultimately that contributed to their losing their crown and JM never recovered from it. (the other main factors for me was Ronaldo hitting form and goals, Vidic being a rock in their defence)

As for this game, well I think Alan Hansen is generous in believing Rafa has learned lessons because it appears not. I suppose at least we may be privy to what would have happened had Rafa sold Alonso last season, although we have a crock in the treatment room and not Barry in our midfield. For me Alonso was the missing piece today, and Rafa's decision to play Babel over Yossi just made no sense given his form in the run-in and Babel's lack of it all last season. Several players were anonymous, perhaps the game best summed up by Carra and Skrtel taking each other out - FWIW Carra should have left it to Skrtel as he was the one facing the direction you want it to be headed. And to cap off Carra's bad day at the office/lane, he concedes a fairly needless free-kick and they score from it.

All in all we came away with no more or less points than last season, although last season was much more of a mugging in terms of the way the game went. We now need to sack aCe as thread-starter, put last season's draw at home to Stoke right by winning midweek and set off on a run of wins that will set us up for our tester at the bridge

spudz (a) L1-2
Stoke (h)
villa (h)
Bolton (a)
Burnley (h)
West Ham (a)
Hull (h)

CORRESPONDING FIXTURES 08/09 : P6 W3 D2 L1 F13 A4 PTS 11 (out of 18)

AFTER SEVEN GAMES 08/09 : P7 W5 D2 L0 F10 A4 PTS 17 (out of 21)

So we can easily pick up more points that in the same games last season, 15 up for grabs. And with six wins we'd have more points than after seven games last season, we may be the only side of last season's top four not to win but Hull and Brum at home are hardly testing and Arsenal will do very well to keep up their opening fixture form.

Interesting stat I heard yesterday, similar to one I quoted at the end of last season. Someone said that the mancs did the double over every one of last season's bottom 12 sides except Newcastle (mine being they won 19 out of 20 against the bottom half of the table sides, for me 23 wins out of 24 would be a more emphatic way of expressing the 'doubles' stat)

by **Effes** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:29 pm

bigmick wrote:I didn't see any of the match but an observation anyway. I don't think it's fair to blame the manager for picking Babel in front of Benayoun simply because it appears Yossi had a major impact when he came on. Players do that sometimes, and if a manager knew from day to day, week to week who was a certainty to play well, he truly would be a genius.

Similarly, simply because Babel was by all accounts awful it doesn't necessarily mean that the manager was wrong to pick him. He has gone well in pre-season, so therefore it was at least possible that he'd carry on his form. Players are sometimes sh!te, average players or players who are unproven are sometimes sh!te more often than good ones. Babel may have been sh!te, but it sounds like he wasn't on his own and it wasn't the managers fault he was there in the first place anymore than it was Rafa's fault Torres was sh!te either (which he was by all accounts). Obviously given the evidence before him, if Rafa picked Babel for the next match in front of Riera/Benayoun then you could ask a question.

In answer to the "why the feck didn't we sell Babel/Voronin/Dossena/an Other" questions, its because nobody wanted to buy them I think.

Anyway it was always going to be a tricky game, the second hardest opener out of the big five (I suppose we ought to call it that) fixtures. We came unstuck, so fairly obviously we need to get going and sharpish. Spurs will win lots of matches this season though, so it's not a total disaster by any means.

Sorry Mick, Im not buying that. They seem pretty half-baked reasons mate.

Babel has been sh!te about 90% of the time he has played.

Benayoun was great when he played last season.

Ergo - play Benayoun and NOT Babel.

by **Effes** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:36 pm

redhayesy wrote:i wanted him to really prove himself this season,i was impressed with raffa for giving him a start today-although deep down prefere yossi even though he isn't natually a left winger. fecking hell yossi played better,created more chances,battled for the ball more than babel did all game!

that's why for me you can't blame raffa for babel's performance, it's the player himself. he's played in a posistion he played since we signed him,also for country etc. so feck blaming raffa -i just sincerly hope that babel is put on the subs bench for many a game coming up,cause his attitude more than anything for me is a disgrace!

Lucas is another who iv'e said time an time again needs to show desire,determination to show raffa he is worthy of wearing the red jersey-fecking hell he was so weak today it was fecking annoying to see.

he was given great praise during pre-season in the games he played again i will debate that cause evidence again showed he has been given such a massive opportunity to shine,an as i knew deep down knew he wouldn't because he isn't good enough, attitude,an desire to give raffa a selection headache is non existant.

our midfield was poor today that's where we lost the game for me,cause if the tackles had been better an closing down of their players in the first place,our back four wouldn't have been exposed as much as their were. both goals proved that for me.

on a possitive note,i'm still very opomistic about this season- just as long as the above players don't play week in week out,cause they don't deserve a place in the first team. the only reason they may get futher games is because of injury to other players.

Surely you knew this before today's game?

Most on here knew that.... Rafa should have known that.

If a player is sh!te 90% of the games he playes in one season - do you think he is capable of putting in a
top performance in the firstgame of the next season?

Most people on here would never have started Babel ahead of Benayoun - and you saw why when Beny came on.

by **Reg** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:51 am

Hey lads, I saw the game on ESPN... I'm not surprised we lost, look at the cak pre-season tour we had.

Johnson looked good playing forward, Cara looks tired already, Skrtl headless, Torres unemployed.

Gerrard... with the bags under his eyes... Mr No Presence or what?

Cr@p start to the sesaon with only themselves to blame, couple of great goals from Spurs, no complaints.

Rafa, cold shower mate, get the lads out there practising the basics and get them in bed by 9pm - Gerrard you pi$$head.

No complaints, we didnt deserve to win.

by **aCe'** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:52 am

Absolutely laughable some of the reactions on here... some apparently just coming on to have digs at anyone who has anything critical to say about our wonderful display... but anyways...

Said it before the season started, said in the game thread before the game, said it in all relevant threads... its all been said by various people, only for some to laugh it off ... well its pretty fcking obvious now...

3 things im concerned about the most to be honest, and todays game did very little to assure me:

- our bench looks poor ; no decent cover for CB, no backup FW of any quality to be called on, no CMs who can actually come on and play against good players, just a poor bench overall when all is said and done. Benny was the only one, if he had started it would have been Babel, same story...

- Mascherano-Lucas in the middle... seeing as to how we were outplayed in central areas by pretty much all the sides we came up against in preseason, Rafa surely must have realized that this pairing was never going to bring the ball out from the back with any sort of conviction.. its not in Lucas, and its definitely not in Mascherano... said before the game that Gerrard is going to have to come very deep inside to collect the ball and start our play if we were to get any sort of attacking moves through the middle, and it took us 75mins or so to start doing that yesterday, prior to which, we quite simply offered nothing in terms of build-up play through the middle.. Insua and Johnson didnt do too badly but i would have expected us to push Kuyt & Babel deeper inside with the 2 fullbacks providing wide cover... very little of that happened and very late on... all in all, we need to reconsider our style of play given our personnel..

- Rafas mentality... ill leave that to a relevant thread... safe to say we went out there today to kick the tottenham boys about and stop them from playing rather than try to express our attacking talents...

Anyways... not as worried about the points dropped here as i am about our style of play and our options to try and fix that... in a perfect world we'd be going all out to buy 3 players to try and fix things a little... with our funds i dont think thats possible, still think we absolutely need atleast 2 players though.. backup CB and FW...

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