Liverpool FC Forum

[Sir Roger]

our defense against set piece is a joke.
saw the replay for Bolton's first. there was 3 white shirts waiting on the line for the ball that is head across the goal. 2 missed and the final white managed to turn it in.
why are our defenders??
outside the 6-yard area, ball watching.

I noticed that
Torres and Kyrgiakos were standing watching and waiting with only carragher on the line in the middle of the goal. It seems that many times everyone is waiting for someone else to do something. Then its too late and the balls in the net.
As for Villas goal before half time. It certainly didnt help an already nervous and confused defence for Reina to kick the ball away and get booked. It didnt help the concentration level before the corner and we paid the price.

[bigmick]

As for Villas goal before half time. It certainly didnt help an already nervous and confused defence for Reina to kick the ball away and get booked. It didnt help the concentration level before the corner and we paid the price.

Fair point and I couldn't really see what his beef was as it was definately a corner.

[Sir Roger]

As for Villas goal before half time. It certainly didnt help an already nervous and confused defence for Reina to kick the ball away and get booked. It didnt help the concentration level before the corner and we paid the price.

Fair point and I couldn't really see what his beef was as it was definately a corner.

I was sitting in the Kop behind the goal and knew it was as soon as it happened. For Reina to lose the plot like that was a terrible show of indiscipline and cost us dearly.
Before people go on Im not just blaming Pepe for the goal but his behaviour certainly added to the fukc up

[Bammo]

when it does "work" it's merely because the way the ball falls rather than the system actually working.

But that's exactly what the system is designed for. 75% of goals at set-pieces come from the 2nd ball (like yesterday, for example). Zonal marking is set up so that everywhere is covered and the ball can be cleared easily.

Against Bolton the players were at fault, not the system. The area inside the 6 yard box should have been covered by Carra and the nearest other defender (not sure who it was). It wasn't. They were all flat-footed and acting as though their "zone" only extended an inch from them.

Both zonal and man-to-man marking systems are susceptible to the perfect ball in. Seeing as most goals come from the knock down it does make sense to defend against that. It is still necessary for players to actually put some effort in!!

[Effes]

Im glad I came back in here - a very good debate.

By the way - Im not saying we should switch to man mark - what my beef was was is this
the best system for us to adapt considering the personnel we have?

As has been stated - execution of the system is all important.

I just think opposing teams can plan to attack zonal as I wonder whether it has
more "weak points".

25% of goals conceded as highlighted by s@int is an interesting stat.

[Bammo]

I think we need to be a bit more savvy in the way we defend. At the moment players keep rigidly to their positions whilst the opposition run between. It doesn't take much movement (even within the zones) to block the runs - legally.

As I mentioned, zonal marking is designed for the 2nd ball but that shouldn't mean we don't bother with the 1st ball

[Sir Roger]

I think we need to be a bit more savvy in the way we defend. At the moment players keep rigidly to their positions whilst the opposition run between. It doesn't take much movement (even within the zones) to block the runs - legally.

As I mentioned, zonal marking is designed for the 2nd ball but that shouldn't mean we don't bother with the 1st ball

I see it as more of an "after you" situation where people are waiting for others to do it instead of them.

[stmichael]

give me zonal over the dross we're serving up now anyday of the week.

[Scottbot]

give me zonal over the dross we're serving up now anyday of the week.

Yep, man to man doesn't get a mention whenever we concede our latest set-piece goal. Imagine if we were still playing zonal? We wouldn't hear the end of it.

[Steve Crooks]

I never understand why the zonal versus man marking debate seems to get so much attention with us.. Surely the argument should be what is the most effective way of defending?

Quite simply, defenders need to know their job in set piece situations. The most dangerous attacking players get special attention and deserve man marking (maybe even 2 defenders man marking the most dangerous attacker). The rest can mark zones..

So long as the players are well drilled on the plan and have the ability to do their job (if they dont have the ability then why are they playing for us?).

The other important point is that the art of defending as a team from the front seems to be lost on us this season. Gaping holes all too frequently appear between the defence and attack. This is down to two things, defenders defending too deep and midfielders not tracking the runs of the opposition.

Defenders usually drop deep when they know they don't have the pace and they are scared of getting turned. All of our central defenders lack pace (not sure about Danny Wilson). Danny Agger is probably the most pacey central defender we have and that shows when he is playing by the higher line we tend to keep.

So the argument about zonal or man marking is way too simplistic. It is about intelligent players knowing their job, having the ability and the team working as a unit in defence and attack.

[red till i die!!]

give me zonal over the dross we're serving up now anyday of the week.

Yep, man to man doesn't get a mention whenever we concede our latest set-piece goal. Imagine if we were still playing zonal? We wouldn't hear the end of it.

our defending atm is atrocious and needs to be sorted quick.bottom line is we have no pace in defense and no presence.
the midfield is all over the place and offer very little protection to the back 4 since we lost masch,which invites teams on to us.
it doesent matter what system we use,our current defense isnt good enough.aurelio cant seem to get a game,agger cant seem to stay fit for any amount of time,skyrtel and the grok are just useless,carragher is past it,johnson is limited and kelly is too inexperienced.
i seem to remember shipping goals from every set piece when we used zonal previously,it didnt really work then and with pretty much the same defense and weakened squad i cant see it working now.
id prefer man 2 man and better work on and off the ball with a bit of comunication over reverting back to zonal.

[Scottbot]

give me zonal over the dross we're serving up now anyday of the week.

Yep, man to man doesn't get a mention whenever we concede our latest set-piece goal. Imagine if we were still playing zonal? We wouldn't hear the end of it.

our defending atm is atrocious and needs to be sorted quick.bottom line is we have no pace in defense and no presence.
the midfield is all over the place and offer very little protection to the back 4 since we lost masch,which invites teams on to us.
it doesent matter what system we use,our current defense isnt good enough.aurelio cant seem to get a game,agger cant seem to stay fit for any amount of time,skyrtel and the grok are just useless,carragher is past it,johnson is limited and kelly is too inexperienced.
i seem to remember shipping goals from every set piece when we used zonal previously,it didnt really work then and with pretty much the same defense and weakened squad i cant see it working now.
id prefer man 2 man and better work on and off the ball with a bit of comunication over reverting back to zonal.

Not sure anyone is suggesting switching back to a zonal system mate but recognising the fact that it doesn't get a mention when we conced a goal from a man to man set-up when 12 months ago lazy journos and so-called pundits were creaming themselves everytime we conceded from a set-piece.

[stmichael]

I never understand why the zonal versus man marking debate seems to get so much attention with us.. Surely the argument should be what is the most effective way of defending?

Quite simply, defenders need to know their job in set piece situations. The most dangerous attacking players get special attention and deserve man marking (maybe even 2 defenders man marking the most dangerous attacker). The rest can mark zones..

So long as the players are well drilled on the plan and have the ability to do their job (if they dont have the ability then why are they playing for us?).

The other important point is that the art of defending as a team from the front seems to be lost on us this season. Gaping holes all too frequently appear between the defence and attack. This is down to two things, defenders defending too deep and midfielders not tracking the runs of the opposition.

Defenders usually drop deep when they know they don't have the pace and they are scared of getting turned. All of our central defenders lack pace (not sure about Danny Wilson). Danny Agger is probably the most pacey central defender we have and that shows when he is playing by the higher line we tend to keep.

So the argument about zonal or man marking is way too simplistic. It is about intelligent players knowing their job, having the ability and the team working as a unit in defence and attack.

Good post.

I agree that there is too much emphasis put on it though. As I've said for ages now until we buy some defenders who are decent in the air we'll keep conceding from set pieces. Skrtel in particular doesn't look like he has a clue what he's doing half the time. The ease with which he let Distin go for the goal yesterday was embarassing.

[red till i die!!]

give me zonal over the dross we're serving up now anyday of the week.

Yep, man to man doesn't get a mention whenever we concede our latest set-piece goal. Imagine if we were still playing zonal? We wouldn't hear the end of it.

our defending atm is atrocious and needs to be sorted quick.bottom line is we have no pace in defense and no presence.
the midfield is all over the place and offer very little protection to the back 4 since we lost masch,which invites teams on to us.
it doesent matter what system we use,our current defense isnt good enough.aurelio cant seem to get a game,agger cant seem to stay fit for any amount of time,skyrtel and the grok are just useless,carragher is past it,johnson is limited and kelly is too inexperienced.
i seem to remember shipping goals from every set piece when we used zonal previously,it didnt really work then and with pretty much the same defense and weakened squad i cant see it working now.
id prefer man 2 man and better work on and off the ball with a bit of comunication over reverting back to zonal.

Not sure anyone is suggesting switching back to a zonal system mate but recognising the fact that it doesn't get a mention when we conced a goal from a man to man set-up when 12 months ago lazy journos and so-called pundits were creaming themselves everytime we conceded from a set-piece.

neither am i .glad to see the back of it tbh.
just pointing out that i dont think we have enough inteligent players to play zonal thats all.
i agree that 12mths ago they were creaming themselves when the zonal wasnt working and we conceeded where as now they are creaming themselves at our atrocious defending and individual mistakes.
these people have their own agenda and will always lay the boot in.that wont change regardless of what system we play.

[Ben Patrick]

I never understand why the zonal versus man marking debate seems to get so much attention with us.. Surely the argument should be what is the most effective way of defending?

Quite simply, defenders need to know their job in set piece situations. The most dangerous attacking players get special attention and deserve man marking (maybe even 2 defenders man marking the most dangerous attacker). The rest can mark zones..

So long as the players are well drilled on the plan and have the ability to do their job (if they dont have the ability then why are they playing for us?).

The other important point is that the art of defending as a team from the front seems to be lost on us this season. Gaping holes all too frequently appear between the defence and attack. This is down to two things, defenders defending too deep and midfielders not tracking the runs of the opposition.

Defenders usually drop deep when they know they don't have the pace and they are scared of getting turned. All of our central defenders lack pace (not sure about Danny Wilson). Danny Agger is probably the most pacey central defender we have and that shows when he is playing by the higher line we tend to keep.

So the argument about zonal or man marking is way too simplistic. It is about intelligent players knowing their job, having the ability and the team working as a unit in defence and attack.

Good post.

I agree that there is too much emphasis put on it though. As I've said for ages now until we buy some defenders who are decent in the air we'll keep conceding from set pieces. Skrtel in particular doesn't look like he has a clue what he's doing half the time. The ease with which he let Distin go for the goal yesterday was embarassing.

agreed, and the exact same thing happened with Fellaini earlier in the game, he looks at the player and then totally loses the ball and the player ends up with a free header.