Liverpool FC Forum

[dawson99]

excatly with what u said before, i wouldnt compare as mashers only played a handful of games and cant be properly judged yet.

too many people too quick off the mark, me included sometimes

[Lando_Griffin]

It's easy enough to solve this:

Let's just wait and see how we perform over the coming weeks.

To be honest, and you know I consider clueless and a circus joke those who underrate Alonso, I believe that  Bad Bob is right when he says that right now our squad is deep enough to face any given problem.

No matter who gets injured, we can give a proper answer.

But as Bigmick suggests, the best thing to do is to give the matter not some weeks but more time. We'll see at the end of the season how many games start each player, how much Alonso is used, and whether it's true what some people thought some months back that Alonso would struggle to play regularly in this team. I think, hope and expect the Gerrard-Mascherano partnership will work ok as they're both great footballers.

I'm very confident in the outcome, Alonso when he's been available I think he's been picked in every game of the league so far. With the some say incompatible Gerrard, with Mascherano and with Sissoko.

Yes indeedy.

I and Mick seem to agree to the point on some things, but be Worlds apart on others! (Which I highly doubt is a problem for either of us, as he at least expresses his views eloquently.)

What Mick and I tend to agree the most on is how Gerrard should be deployed. (But that's another story.)

I personally view Xabi as virtually indespensible from our side in the system that Rafa uses. (A point I and almost everyone else seemingly disagree on.) I like to see a side with a central figure through which every move takes place, and as such, there is no-one better (at least at Liverpool) than Alonso for this role IMHO.
I understand that some people simply wish to see players crashing into tackles and running their a*ses off for the cause. Whilst it is not my personal cup of tea, (although I do enjoy seeing the likes of Neville and Ronaldo succumb to the odd (or frequent) clatter), this by no means dilutes it's worth in a footballing sense. It just doesn't appeal to me as much as a floating pass, a searching through-ball, or a well-timed interception.

While I maintain that our strongest line-up when everyone is available looks like this with Gerrard floating;

                                      Reina

           Finnan             JC              Agger             Aurelio

   Gerrard              Mascher          Alonso               Kewell

                                Benayoun

                                               Torres,

I accept that most people on here (however wrong I think they are) wouldn't have Alonso in their starting lineup.

It's not this that bothers me. It's when people suggest that Mascherano is a superior footballer to Alonso, when it's patently obvious to anyone with a set of eyes in their head that this is not the case. There is little (if any) comparison between the two, and IMHO MAscher should be regarded as animproved version of Sissoko, rather than a competitor to Xabi.
Their games are nothing alike, and if you actually look closely, you can see that Liverpool's tactics change quite a bit when Xabi isn't in the side.

But still - this will no doubt continue to be a topic of great debate, with certain members fo the "old school" failing to grasp the simplest of concepts as it might mean they're wrong... (And no, I don't mean Mick.)

[account deleted by request]

I don't think the problem here is actually who's the better player or who plays best with whom, as much as some (Lando and Sabre) seem to be a little over protective towards their favourite player. Theres nothing wrong in this, no one likes their favourite player to receive criticism. To me we have four top class central midfielders, whether some play better with one partner or another is open for discussion we all have our own theories and beliefs.(probably most of which are doubtful at best.)Rafa would no doubt be rolling on the floor with laughter if he read some of our theories and ideas on most topics anyway.

If we were talking about who is best Crouch or Kuyt, and who plays best with Torres,we would have people taking sides but maybe without this over - protective bias. (MAYBE NOT )

Cutting a long story short Alonso is just as deserving of cricism when he has a bad game as any player, just because someone says he's not as good as someone else doesn't mean they have lost all reason, is an idiot or blind......JUST A DIFFERENT OPINION.

I don't think anyone thinks Alonso is cr@p, its just we have new toys to play with as well now, that doesn't mean we don't still love and want to play with our old ones

PS lando I picked the same formation a couple of pages ago mate.

[66-1112520797]

When did you last go to a live Liverpool game again...?

Surely you should listen to the people who actually attend current matches, rather than sit thinking "Oooh, the nasty Spanish man made Stevie-weavy play out wide on the right. That nasty Spanish man..." all the time

So I take you've been recently, you managed to get a ticket and because you've been once this season your an expert, do me a favour pal.

Even numpties can attend games, that doesnt mean to say their right.

[bigmick]

One of the reasons I got a bit fed up of the modding is that often when people have huge fall outs, they are actually much closer than they think to each others view and the Alonso/Masherano/Gerrard thing is a great example.

I don't think anybody is disputing that all three are great players. Even those who prefer Alonso to Masherano accept that the Argentine is a top player, while almost everybody who prefers the new arrival would accept that Alonso is one of the best around. I don't think anybody seriously doubts that Gerrard is a great player, though some get irritated by the tendency on occasions od the media to hype him up and say we are a one man team, which clearly we aren't.

So to the disagreements. Compatibility? Well if you must play Gerrard centrally, then clearly unless you change your formation one of the other two (much as it pains me to do so we'll leave Momo out of it for the time being) are going to miss out. Now once again another point of agreement, most people it seems to me seem to agree that Gerrard probably has to play somewhere, be it right or central (or even left if you're Rafa) and also most poeple seem to agree that Alonso and Masherano aren't an ideal partnership. Now I would further venture that if Gerrard and his partner (whoever you go for) both play well on the day, you would have the best central midfiled pairing in the Premiership right there, bar none. Once again, i think most everybody would agree with that.

Now onto the individuals which polarise the debate so much. Alonso first. I think just about everybody would agree that he posesses a broader range of passing than Masherano, more incisive and more accurate. I also suspect everyone would agree that while neither of them will win the golden boot, he is more likely to score you a goal than the Argentine.

Masherano? Well I think most everyone would agree he is a more tenacious ball-winner than Alonso, much more likely to go to ground in the tackle and much more of the old fashioned ball-winning midfielder. Also I think most would agree that he is more likely to "defer" to Gerrard in terms of posession, in that he would be happy to just give the captain the ball wherever and whenever he asked for it.

So lots of agreements. I'll give you another agreement. Most everyone who is in the "Masherano" camp would probably change their minds and go back into the "Alonso" camp, if they felt that the Spaniard was playing as well for Liverpool as he did in his first season. There is the crux gentlemen, some people think that he has not been playing to anywhere near that level (and some have even gone as far as to venture a possible reason why), and some think that the level he is performing to is not far removed at all from his previous hieghts. When you boil it down, there are really small disagreements here and it's entirely possible that everybody is right.

Lando was spot on about one thing he said earlier on another thread where he said Hamann and Sissoko are entirely different types of players. They are and I really can't understand people wanting to compare in that way. Similarly, Alonso and Masherano approach the job of defensive midfielder in an entirely different fashion. My point for what it's worth (and as always it isn't very much) is that if Alonso sits so close to the back four that he can be pressed the minute he gets the ball. If he because of that pressure he rarely passes it with the incisiveness and crispness needed to break the game, and if he never gets over the halfway line, then you are probably better off going with Masherano. As a purely defensive midfielder, he is the better of the two in my humble opinion. If however, Alonso decides/manages to bring his other more expansive skills to the party then he is the better option.

[Sabre]

I agree the whole idea of S@int when he says any player or Rafa can receive criticism and no-one should be offended for that. Although I don't see why he thinks our opinion has a protective bias for Alonso. For the same reason, surely other opinion's would have offensive bias? One could say so when in a thread talking about a player of the club someone appears saying another one is better, instead of focusing on the proposed topic.

Anyhow, I agree that if someone says "Alonso is slow, and can be easily replaced" he shouldn't be insulted, it's just an opinion. I don't like neither to be accused of bias towards other clubs and doubting I wish the best for the club or a player, I'm just saying an opinion. And for what is worth my protective bias doesn't stop in Alonso, I still defend oficially Kuyt and Crouch (and it's not because an antitorres bias) . At the end of the day, each brigade, no matter if you're talking about the antirotation, prorotation, proAlonso, or proGerrard, have to share their opinions. That gives fun to the forum, but without entering personal comments. In that sense your posting for instance, has been spotless not only in this thread but as of late.

P.S. Bigmick posted while I was writting. Excellent post.

[Igor Zidane]

As far as i'm concerned it show's how far we've come in a pretty short space of time .We could sitting here debating who is the best midfielder Biscan or diao for christ's sake. By the way it's a bit of a know brainer ,but you know where i'm coming from.

[account deleted by request]

So we will put you down as a don't know then Mick?

Seriously mate a good post. I think the whole problem surrounding Alonso on these boards stems from when a few people considered that selling him if necessary to aquire the right striker, was the right thing to do considering our strength in midfield. To the Alonso faithful this was seen as blasphemous, and that under no circumstances must he be sold, and that the people who considered this option were idiots. 

I shudder to think how our season and fortunes would be looking now if we hadn't bought a new striker, but prefer to think that we got the best of both worlds, a first class striker and retained one of the best midfielders around. Whether our fortunes would have been further enhanced had we infact swopped Alonso for Eto'o , or if we would have still proceeded to buy Torres with Eto'o in the bag is open to debate. I must admit a front pairing of Torres and Eto'o would have been something special though.

[Sabre]

That can be applied in all  the squad aswell Igor

It's not the same thing to have a Babel instead of a Nuñez.

It's not the same thing to have a Fabio Aurelio, instead of a Traore (I really suffered when I watched this lad)

And it's not the same thing that some say "Our worse striker is Crouch" or "our worse striker is Neil Mellor"

Liverpool has a growing squad, it's getting stronger. And that's why an approach to the title is not a hopeful wish, but a serious possibility.

[europian-kings]

i think alonso and mascherano are two diff players for two diff type of games. e.g. if we are playing a team with very attacking midfielders then i think mascherano should play as he rund everywhere all around the pitch to make tackles. alonso is a better player for us when we are looking to have much better range of the ball finding players.
i have had alonso on all of my l'pool shirts since his arrivel but i have to admit, i am starting to love mascherano aswel.

[LFC2007]

I think 'Mascherano vs Alonso' is an old debate. I'm almost certain it's been covered before, in multiple threads.

The debate will change with every game, but only after a series of games can a more reliable judgement be formed.

I don't quite agree with Lando, although I do share his enthusiasm for Alonso's talent and ability.

Mick outlined their abilities and compatibility well.

It's a 'we shall see' debate, like almost all of the topics active on this forum are.

[woof woof !]

I'm almost certain it's been covered before

but you still feel compelled to comment ?

Christ sake, some subjects are numbing enough without some bright spark reminding us that he's almost certain we might have covered them before, in multiple threads !

[LFC2007]

I'm almost certain it's been covered before

but you still feel compelled to comment ?

Christ sake, some subjects are numbing enough without some bright spark reminding us that he's almost certain we might have covered them before, in multiple threads !

I hardly went off on one - I stated a fact. The points have been covered before, I just briefly gave my view. Why did you see the need to make such an off topic point anyway?

Intrigued? 

[Lando_Griffin]

When did you last go to a live Liverpool game again...?

Surely you should listen to the people who actually attend current matches, rather than sit thinking "Oooh, the nasty Spanish man made Stevie-weavy play out wide on the right. That nasty Spanish man..." all the time

So I take you've been recently, you managed to get a ticket and because you've been once this season your an expert, do me a favour pal.

Even numpties can attend games, that doesnt mean to say their right.

Well there I was suggesting that it's the regular match-goers we should listen to, not me. What a suprise - you totally missed the point again...

And by-the-by, I thought it was I who "resorted to the insults"?

[crazyhorse]

I really do not see the point in constantly debating and comparing our players. We are very lucky, and have a diverse and world class squad of players; capable of beating any team and winning any competition.

I see the squad in simple terms as a tool box. For each job you need to use different tools, meaning that tactically for one game we may need a player like Mascherano or Sissoko and on another a more subtle such as Xabi.

All the tools are as valuable as each other, but you cant use the same ones day in day out as they wear out before you have got the best of them. In some jobs you use the same tools all of the time, the spine which at the moment I would suggest is Reina, Carra, Stevie and Torres.

To say one is better than the other is plain daft, as is this over simplified analogy!