Liverpool FC Forum

[redtrader74]

Suffice to say some of us are still waiting to see any evidence whatsoever that rotation on the scale which we practice it has had any positive effects on our achievements as a team. Once we see that, there will be of course no argument. "What kind of evidence do you expect to see?" I hear you ask. Well, if we could at the very least achieve a points total somewhere near what the team is capable of

Mick, how about the points total of 2005-6, rotated every single game. Rafas second season, achieved after the CL side was ripped apart (thankfully), and during a period of huge rebuilding.

[agoodmentality]

RAFA LIKES TO KEEPS HIS SQUAD FRESH,,,THAT'S HOW HE DOES IT,,
EITHER SUPPORT HIM,,OR START A SILLY LITTLE PETITION TO GET HIM SACKED!
LET THE KN0BEDS QUESTION HIS TACTICAL MADNESS,,

RAFA KNOWS BEST
(OR BETTER THAN U LOT ANYWAY)

[bigmick]

RAFA LIKES TO KEEPS HIS SQUAD FRESH,,,THAT'S HOW HE DOES IT,,
EITHER SUPPORT HIM,,OR START A SILLY LITTLE PETITION TO GET HIM SACKED!
LET THE KN0BEDS QUESTION HIS TACTICAL MADNESS,,

RAFA KNOWS BEST
(OR BETTER THAN U LOT ANYWAY)

Good post mate and well said. I must confess though on this occasion to being a "KNOBED" and forgive me but I can't get it out of my system. I tend to agree with you that Rafa knows best, certainly more than us lot anyway. Kind of makes you wonder what's the point of posting doesn't it really?

On Reds point about the season before last, we did appear to be the best team in the league in the last three months of the season. We deservedly put man Utd and Chelsea out of the cup on the way to winning the thing, and the same team was barely played twice, if ever.

Just a couple of points on that one though. I don't think we were chopping and changing to quite the same extent that rafa does when he goes through one of his little "spells", and also if we were indeed the best team in the league at that time (and I conceded in an earlier post that we were) then it makes the "so how good were we last season?" question all the more relevent.

Anyhow we will see. So far this season, we've only really seen one example of silliness (away at Pompey) which while derailing us for three or four games, still leaves us in a decent enough position provided we can get going again. No doubt the argument will be revisited by us "KNOBEDS" many times as the season goes on.

[redtrader74]

Whats a KNOBED?   

Just a couple of points on that one though. I don't think we were chopping and changing to quite the same extent that rafa does when he goes through one of his little "spells",

And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, Big Micks insurance policy should we actually go on and win the title. Then the rotation will have been just shy of being 'mass' and become 'sensible tinkering'. I won't mind, infact i won't give a damn come that day (Hopefully this year), i shall be well on my way to alcohol poisoning 

[bigmick]

And there we have it ladies and gentlemen, Big Micks insurance policy should we actually go on and win the thing. The rotation then will have been just shy of being 'mass' and become sensible tinkering.

Oh I don't need insurance policies Red, I've been pretty consistent since day one. As you know I've stuck to the point all along that nobody is saying we should play the same team in every game, or at least I'm not anyhow. I've said on more than one occasion that I had no problem with the selection against Birmingham at Home, or Porto away.

Equally I've said many times that no team will win the English Premier League, ever, while rotating the starting line up, the formation and the positions the players play in to the same extent that Rafa has in the past. No team ever will, even us.

No, those who are looking for a swerve on a technicality from me should we win the league employing those methods are going to be disppointed because I'd be admitting I was wrong long before we actually win the thing. If we can sustain a challenge while making three and four changes per game, then I am wrong whether or not we win it. This particularly applies if we can leave out or Captain AND by a distance our best striker in Away games and still win. My hunch is we won't see that particular little experiment repeated barring injuries in the League this season while we are still in with a chance.

Fortunately though, I am hopeful it won't come to that because Rafa is not a fool and knows his little experiment at Pompey has proved very costly. Like I said, I had no problem with the selection against Birmingham, just the silly reasoning given in an after match interview.

"Sensible" rotation? In my view it means wherever possible picking your very best team. Everyone occasionally needs a day off though, so the occasional rest day for players is fine. If we are serious about winning the league though, the total number of changes per game barring injuries should be one or two and no more, and we shouldn't be afraid of being a bit boring sometimes and not changing the team for three or four games on the spin. I know it's a bit off the wall, but that's my definition of sensible tinkering/rotation. Like I say, if we can get very close to winning it while employing many more changes than that, then I'm wrong.

[Bad Bob]

Right, my turn to play!

Hmmm. I think I can see a new "you can't play the same team in every single game" mantra coming here because a few of the "pro's" have started to dredge this one up of rotation being the SOLE reason for losing a game. Lets put this silliness to bed here and now.

If anybody can be bothered to read back, (and I don't blame you if you can't) I've said on numerous occasions that rotation isn't a reason by itself to lose football matches. I even alluded to the fact in a post one page back from this one that we had selectorial silliness against Sunderland and yet still produced a decent performance and the three points.

I'm going to pause at this point first and ask how the following line-up against Sunderland in any way shape or form constitutes "selectorial silliness":

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Sissoko
Babel
Voronin
Torres

That looks a sound line up to me--especially when you consider that Gerrard had a broken toe at the time.  I simply don't get how that line-up can be put forward as evidence for the short-comings of Rafa's rotation policy.

Of course you don't lose "simply because of rotation", but as I've always maintained, if you chop and change the team every week you will have an effect on the fluency and cohesion of the team. If I had one of those highlighter pens, I'd go over that last sentence. I haven't, so I'll do this.

If you chop and change the team every week you will have an effect on the fluency and cohesion of the team. Now I ask the "pro's", how can you possibly dispute that and keep a straight face?

I'll concede that it will have an influence to a point (say about 15 minutes into the first half ) but I'm with Red Trader on this one: these lads still train together every day and play together frequently enough.  They don't forget the basics overnight and no one's style is/was so unorthodox (with the possible exception of Garcia) that teammates couldn't play effectively with them if they'd not been on the same pitch in a while.

Anyways I'm off into work now, but I am hooked up there and please don't all feck off like you did yesterday. BTW, I'm still waiting to hear a sensible answer to the "how good were we" question. It seems to be a concensus that we were a bit unlucky, we hit the post a few times otherwise we'd have been a lot closer    I'm expecting a bit better.

I'm not honestly sure what you are looking for here either.  As I've said, we had a team that was capable of running the title race a lot closer last season.  And I really don't think there's anyone who supports the club who feels that we played as well as we possibly could in every league game last season--not even Stu, who seemed to take a pretty dim view of our squad's quality as title contenders.  But that's not what you're driving at, is it?  What you really want to know is that, given the fact that we all agree that we the capacity to do so much better in the league last season, why didn't we?  Now, I'm sorry if you don't like my answer but I assure you I'm not being glib.  I think it had a lot to do with injuries at key times, certain established first-teamers getting off to a very slow start, poorly timed internationals/friendlies, new lads taking some time to bed in, a brutal fixture list, some unlucky breaks with reffing decisions and hitting woodwork and maybe--as one aspect among many--some poor selections and poor tactics on Rafa's part.  I mean, that's football: lots of little things aggregate to produce big effects.  So, I emphasize again, one aspect among many and not, for my money, the most important aspect either.  (Which brings me back to a point you raised and emphasized earlier about not seeing rotation as the SOLE reason for our troubles last year and this.  Well, I'll take your word for that rather than sift back through your impressive output on the topic but you must admit that you would be in a minority of almost one if we're talking about anti-rotationists who didn't imply that Rafa's team selection was the reason why we've had trouble taking maximum points of late.)

Last couple of things. Bob, even though we played decent teams in the Everton/Bolton matches, it was of course our farcical selections in the Macabi Haifa home game and Sheffield United Away games which derailed us to a point which we never recovered. As we are now seeing, once you have a team which is underperforming, it's not just a question of sticking your best eleven out and you're suddenly back to square one. It's a bit more complicated than that, even I know that. I didn't even learn it in the tabloids either.

So, it was Rafa's team selection against MH and Sheffield United that made Carragher come back too soon from injury against Everton and have a shocker?  How about the linesman's ridiculous decision against Reina in the Bolton game--can we trace that back to Sheffield as well?  Can we thank selectorial silliness on the opening day for Riise getting caught way up the pitch at home to Blackburn (almost two months later) ahead of their equalizer?  To use your own phrase, mate, "it's a bit more complicated than that."  Are we to seriously consider the notion that selection decisions in the first two games of the season "derailed us to the point that we never recovered"?  I'm sorry but I just cannot ever buy into that thinking--not to that degree.  For the record, our start to last season looked like this: We drew on opening day (SU), we then won our next league match (WHU), lost two (Everton, Chelsea) and then won two (Newcastle, Spurs)--hardly the derailment you are suggesting is it?

Just so people are perfectly clear on where I'm coming from: I would never say that every selection decision Rafa has ever made is correct.  All I'm saying is that there's a lot more to our poor performances than rotation.  A lot more.  The issue needs to be put back into perspective because a lot of people blow that one thing way out of proportion.

[redtrader74]

TBH Mick we agree Mick far more than we disagree, the polarising of opinion usually stems from the posts that advocate Rafas dismissal and those that can look no further than the end of their nose and tell us that every failure is simply down to rotation.

Infact i don't think you should be defending the anti-rotationalist viewpoint, because i'll concede you have never really been a vehement opposer of rotation, (to some extent), or a play your best 11 every week nutter.

The fact of the matter is that Rafa is not going to change, but at least we should accept that all selections are made in careful deliberation and in the belief that they will bring a victory. There is some proof that Rafas methods can work, in his past in Spain, and in his success in all the competitions with Liverpool bar the league so far.

BTW if i ever see you on the bus, i won't be afraid to make eye contact.

[Sabre]

Good post Bad Bob:

Just so people are perfectly clear on where I'm coming from: I would never say that every selection decision Rafa has ever made is correct.

BTW neither do I. I remember last season Manchester United away game. And suddenly, Gonzalez in the line up and no previous games in his pocket. Hardly the best match for an adapting game. For me it was a selection mistake.

It went wrong of course, and that one hurted. But was it selection sillyness? or motivated at some extent by the fact Kewell was not available, and we hadn't Benayoun and Babel for instance? Did we see Gerrard in the left for selection sillyness or because Rafa could not rely on Gonzalez on important matches?

No matter how you look at it, Rafa will make mistakes. As redtrader says, I agree Bigmick in many things (including the comment on my accuracy! ), I just disagree in the amount of guilt he charges on rotation, as a system, instead of giving relevance to  lots of subtle  factors some of which you Bad Bob have mentioned.

[66-1112520797]

Well I'm afraid I agree with little Micky whole heartedly on this.

As yet, going into Rafa's fourth year as manager I havent been convinced or even seen the benefits of rotation. We may well of finnished a couple of seasons strongly, but IMO its been to little to late. As earlier on in those campaigns we've dropped ponits like calamity James used to drop balls for us.

It hasnt benefited us, I think it has benefited Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal, IMO their the teams who have been aided by our rotation policy. I would love to hear the "pro's" views at Fratton Park and why it helped us, yes Stevie may have not been ready to come back to action ... fair enough, but Torres only had a knock and it was rather silly to leave him on the bench IMO. Where did rotation help us, Owzat or a stat man I'm sure would be able to dig up the stats and show us how much needless tinkering Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal do, not as much as us I'm guessing.

Leaving Torres out for a tricky away game at Pompey is like having a Ferrari but driving a Mini, just so you can save mileage on your Ferrai its IMO plain silly, and nothing has convinced me of the rotation methods.

[Ciggy]

I think the thing that has fucked Rafa's rotation policy up is the players he rotated in the past wernt good enough to begin with.

We had Pellegrino, Nunez, Traore, Diao Josemi, Kromkamp, etc they where a mixture of Houllier dross and Rafa dross.

So it left us with no confidence in this rotation policy.
Now this team is a damn sight better than his first season in charge.

And my only complaint about his rotation policy this season is not to rest Torres in the prem.
He is part of the spine of the team like Reina, Carra, Gerrard, rotate the other forwards but not him.
Thats my opinion anyway no doubt some will disagree.

Them manc kunts go top of the league on saturday if they beat Wigan, I just keep thinking what could have been, we will after overhaul Arsenal and the Mancs now its a tough task we have on our hands.

[Bad Bob]

It hasnt benefited us, I think it has benefited Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal, IMO their the teams who have been aided by our rotation policy. I would love to hear the "pro's" views at Fratton Park and why it helped us, yes Stevie may have not been ready to come back to action ... fair enough, but Torres only had a knock and it was rather silly to leave him on the bench IMO. Where did rotation help us, Owzat or a stat man I'm sure would be able to dig up the stats and show us how much needless tinkering Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal do, not as much as us I'm guessing.

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, mate.  What would have happened if Torres aggrevated that knock at Portsmouth and had to miss a few weeks?  I think we're seeing the negative impacts of Gerrard playing through the pain barrier for England--he's admitted he hasn't been fit and it's hurt his performances.  So why risk Torres straight after a hectic international fortnight?  Especially considering that, judging by the score sheet alone, you've got a fella in Voronin who had just as many goals as Torres at the time and looked to be in top form.  Crouch, as we (now) know, has been a bit of a different story but he had still been in amongst the goals before the international break and he was fresh as a daisy after sitting on his a.rse at Wembley.  Everyone has been excited by Torres since he's arrived but based on actual output (i.e. goals) he's not been streets ahead of the other strikers--certainly not before his hattrick.  And, I would have thought that the Wigan game has put to rest the notion that starting Torres guarantees success?

On to the other top teams and, I too, am curious about their approach to rotation.  I don't have stats in front of me at the moment but, just going on what I have seen, I would say that Chelsea's tinkering in the past season and a bit has been far worse than ours because they've had to try and shoehorn big names like Ballack and Shevchenko into the team.  Far worse than swapping like for like, as Rafa prefers, they've fundamentally altered the system that won them back to back titles in order to fit these players in.  So, yes, I'd say they do it.  As for the Mancs, how often did we see 4-5-1 from them at the start of this season, with Tevez the loan striker and Saha on the bench?  Arsenal I've seen little of but, FWIW (not much, admittedly), Van Persie has been rested on a couple of occasions.  As I say, preliminary thoughts but perhaps enough there to muddy the waters in response to the perennial 'we're the only top team to chop and change' argument?

[112-1077774096]

hi bob, every time a player plays there is a risk of injury so they take that risk in important games, they get paid very very well to play and the want to play.

the portsmouth game was important, as is every game. the fact remains he never started, he came on and could have aggravated the injury at that point. its a lame excuse to be fair to say he might get injured, there are so many what ifs.

the fact is he is a sportsman who risks injury EVERY time he performs or trains

[Lando_Griffin]

Who's got the least bookings?

Mascherano has one, same as YOU, and Xabi mate 

Our survey says...

Uh eeerrrrrrrrrrrr!

Regarding my booking:

I can't help it if people are precious.

Our survey says 1 mate 

LFC TV

soccerbase link

That's just Premiership games mate... 

[Owzat]

Perhaps we should start manager rotation...............................

[footballzone]

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