Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

rafa just got the sack from inter

in other news, man has just landed on the moon

[Octsky]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

i still remember the headlines " Record signing Heskey join LFC for 11mil !!!"

11m for a record signing under GH?

how many players over 11m were signed under Rafa ?

taking inflation rate in football n economy into consideration Rafa still greatly outspend GH.
then how can you compare their squad? 

Rafa did won the CL n FA cup, but how many barren years did LFC fans suffered before GH won the treble and put us on the euro stage?

adding to that GH "discovered" Gerrard and "rediscovered" Carra by trusting him in the Central D role. he gave also Danny Murphy a chance to perform.
while Rafa has done sh1t bringing youth players into the first team setup. hopefully RH can change that.

[Kharhaz]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

1: Rafa won the Champions League with a majority of players Houillier left behind. Whatever argument is considered in opposition of this fact, it remains a fact.

2: Rafa left Roy with a defensive set up, a negative one, and Roy is being judged on this. We all agree that Roy is not good enough for Liverpool, but based on the squad Rafa left, who, in this current day, could perform miracles with what Rafa left?

At Inter, Rafa has the excuse of injuries, are we exempt from that?

What GH left was a squad capable of winning the European Cup, Rafa proved it. What Rafa has left is a club with one proven striker, now argue against that all you will, but its a fact. What GH left is miles better than what Rafa left.

[akumaface]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

1: Rafa won the Champions League with a majority of players Houillier left behind. Whatever argument is considered in opposition of this fact, it remains a fact.

2: Rafa left Roy with a defensive set up, a negative one, and Roy is being judged on this. We all agree that Roy is not good enough for Liverpool, but based on the squad Rafa left, who, in this current day, could perform miracles with what Rafa left?

At Inter, Rafa has the excuse of injuries, are we exempt from that?

What GH left was a squad capable of winning the European Cup, Rafa proved it. What Rafa has left is a club with one proven striker, now argue against that all you will, but its a fact. What GH left is miles better than what Rafa left.

This is just based on baseless assumption. "The squad GH left Rafa was miles better than what Rafa left GH". This is not a fact pal. This is a pointless argument because it really depends on who you ask. The fact that the players are not performing up to standard this season can be due to various argument. So, don't try to go there as everyone will think differently and we will all end up calling names and got into a big fight.

"Rafa left RH a negative squad", but the team Rafa managed scored more goals and concieved less. So, that;s a fact.

[Penguins]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

1: Rafa won the Champions League with a majority of players Houillier left behind. Whatever argument is considered in opposition of this fact, it remains a fact.

2: Rafa left Roy with a defensive set up, a negative one, and Roy is being judged on this. We all agree that Roy is not good enough for Liverpool, but based on the squad Rafa left, who, in this current day, could perform miracles with what Rafa left?

At Inter, Rafa has the excuse of injuries, are we exempt from that?

What GH left was a squad capable of winning the European Cup, Rafa proved it. What Rafa has left is a club with one proven striker, now argue against that all you will, but its a fact. What GH left is miles better than what Rafa left.

This is just based on baseless assumption. "The squad GH left Rafa was miles better than what Rafa left GH". This is not a fact pal. This is a pointless argument because it really depends on who you ask. The fact that the players are not performing up to standard this season can be due to various argument. So, don't try to go there as everyone will think differently and we will all end up calling names and got into a big fight.

"Rafa left RH a negative squad", but the team Rafa managed scored more goals and concieved less. So, that;s a fact.

Totally agree. logic behind that 1st reasoning.

So it can't be that GH was never gonna win the CL with the he assembled and instead RB made the team better than it's induvidial parts. Traore is proof of that.

What what Carra before RB arrived? A bit part full back?
RB left a negative squad?
RB may have made a few poor signings but name me one successful signing in GH's last 2 years???

Cissé, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Traore, Le Tallec etc 35 million wasted on absolutely nothing!

And the picture is pitch black for GH of we take into accoutn resale value of the respective squads.

RB MADE money in total on his buys as the value of the players he bought increased more than decreased.
But if you look at GH buys the value dropped on almost everything he bought or he hold on to them until they had no resale value...

[SouthCoastShankly]

Firstly, I'm not anti-Rafa. Never have been. I thought his time was up last season that's all. Many supporters did.

FWIW, I'm not a Hodgson fan either. I back the manager at the moment because I won't sink to the lows of other clubs, witchhunts, booing, etc.

Back to the comparisons, the exercise is pointless. Hardly any of the players are similar enough to compare. Most players offer different attributes. A better way would be to score each player out of ten then total the team score. Compare teams.

To be honest your sort of comparison is the type of tripe you see in red top rags aimed at pushing an agenda. No offence but your comparisons push a pro-Benitez agenda.

It would take a simple reshuffle of the comparisons to make Houllier win. The more I look at the comparisons the more I laugh.

A few examples -

Finnan vs Johnson… RB (GJ overpriced, but still offers as standard what SF could only dream of) - if you pick Johnson then never complain about him defensively, Finnan may not of run at defenders but he did form a defence, a bl00dy good one. I prefer a defender that defends myself.

Gerrard ’04 vs Gerrard ’10… GH (hands down) - Quite frankly ridiculous. Of course Gerrard is going to be better for the six years he was under RB, its called your career peak. A stupid comparison

Murphy vs Aquilani - the moment I read that I laughed the loudest. Murphy - two times Liverpool supporters player of the season v a crock who played a handful of games. You went the latter. Enough said.

Owen vs Torres - I prefer Torres. But it is a draw, no two ways about it. Owen's scoring record was amazing, considering his age. Let's not play the Judas card, you think Torres will turn down a move away next season?

Heskey vs Kuyt… RB (and I hate DK – that tells you something) - You hate DK yet hated EH more? There weren;t many hating him when the Owen-Heskey partnership was the best partnership in the country?

Cisse vs Jovanovic… DRAW (personally, I’d pick the one with 2 structurally sound legs intact but we have to be objective here – MJ hasn’t proven anything yet) - Cisse touted as the next big thing, by you as well probably (considering no one on here slated him). Jovanovic is sh!t. End of.

But the worst example of bias, is how you compare players who barely played to regulars, or players in different positions. WTF?

[peterc1992]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

i still remember the headlines " Record signing Heskey join LFC for 11mil !!!"

11m for a record signing under GH?

how many players over 11m were signed under Rafa ?

taking inflation rate in football n economy into consideration Rafa still greatly outspend GH.
then how can you compare their squad? 

Rafa did won the CL n FA cup, but how many barren years did LFC fans suffered before GH won the treble and put us on the euro stage?

adding to that GH "discovered" Gerrard and "rediscovered" Carra by trusting him in the Central D role. he gave also Danny Murphy a chance to perform.
while Rafa has done sh1t bringing youth players into the first team setup. hopefully RH can change that.

Was it not benitez who really gave carragher his chance in centre back.Houlliers usually only played him right back with the ocassion centre bacxk when henchoz or hyypia were out.

Disagree that rafa wasted money with youth.The youth players we have now are mostly rafas purchases.Pacheco,suso,shelvey...all huge prospects...I know during his time there was barely any new young faces but to be fair to get a young lad from your youth system through is very hard nowadays being a top four club.Martin kelly is a gem and he came about during rafas time

[kazza]

Rafa was doing just fine with us until those two w@nkers showed up then things soured. I even read that it was Moores that got Torres not those two. Some on here were saying the problem was not the manager but the owners but a few posters with an axe to grind assured us that a new English manager would transform the team that was capable of "winning the prem". The new manager would "win back the dressing room" and "improve morale" as the players clearly were not playing for Rafa. Roy takes over, poor results followed then those same clever posters changed the tune to "look what Rafa left us" (you couldn't make it up, maybe they should stick to serving drinks)

Bottom line is I feel Rafa was not given the best environment to produce a team capable of competing with teams spending much more money, that already had good squads. It would have been nice to see him given a proper shot rather than the handicapped conditions he had to deal with. I would love him to come back but I do not think it will ever happen.

Rafa was not given the sack for for his managerial ability but rather for political reasons. Roy was hired by the previous owner and short of winning the prem, he is a lame duck manager that is a dead man walking. Whenever a new owner takes over any business he brings his own people in unless they are a cut above the rest, which clearly Roy is not (average at best)

Unfortunately worse than us getting seventh last year was that Fulham made the finals of the UEFA cup. If they did not then Roy would not be here.

[Ben Patrick]

I dont think its right to compare the two managers.
Both did decent jobs and had some success.
I will leave it at that though as i dont want to start any big arguments on christmas eve.

[PabloAimar]

Firstly, I'm not anti-Rafa. Never have been. I thought his time was up last season that's all. Many supporters did.

FWIW, I'm not a Hodgson fan either. I back the manager at the moment because I won't sink to the lows of other clubs, witchhunts, booing, etc.

Back to the comparisons, the exercise is pointless. Hardly any of the players are similar enough to compare. Most players offer different attributes. A better way would be to score each player out of ten then total the team score. Compare teams.

To be honest your sort of comparison is the type of tripe you see in red top rags aimed at pushing an agenda. No offence but your comparisons push a pro-Benitez agenda.

It would take a simple reshuffle of the comparisons to make Houllier win. The more I look at the comparisons the more I laugh.

A few examples -

Finnan vs Johnson… RB (GJ overpriced, but still offers as standard what SF could only dream of) - if you pick Johnson then never complain about him defensively, Finnan may not of run at defenders but he did form a defence, a bl00dy good one. I prefer a defender that defends myself.

Gerrard ’04 vs Gerrard ’10… GH (hands down) - Quite frankly ridiculous. Of course Gerrard is going to be better for the six years he was under RB, its called your career peak. A stupid comparison

Murphy vs Aquilani - the moment I read that I laughed the loudest. Murphy - two times Liverpool supporters player of the season v a crock who played a handful of games. You went the latter. Enough said.

Owen vs Torres - I prefer Torres. But it is a draw, no two ways about it. Owen's scoring record was amazing, considering his age. Let's not play the Judas card, you think Torres will turn down a move away next season?

Heskey vs Kuyt… RB (and I hate DK – that tells you something) - You hate DK yet hated EH more? There weren;t many hating him when the Owen-Heskey partnership was the best partnership in the country?

Cisse vs Jovanovic… DRAW (personally, I’d pick the one with 2 structurally sound legs intact but we have to be objective here – MJ hasn’t proven anything yet) - Cisse touted as the next big thing, by you as well probably (considering no one on here slated him). Jovanovic is sh!t. End of.

But the worst example of bias, is how you compare players who barely played to regulars, or players in different positions. WTF?

You really have missed the point. I'll respond properly later when I get chance (unless somebody corrects your definition of "the quality of squad/team left" in the meantime). Besides, taking into account your examples, the score is still 13 - 9 to RB. also take a step back and read which gerrard I actually voted for (04 VS 09). I wasnt 'pro rafa (over rh) until a few weeks ago and if I'm perfectly honest i was actually glad when Roy hodgson replaced him. I apologise if it hasn't come across as such but I'm trying to explore an objective view as opposed to having an "agenda".

[PabloAimar]

OK, that’s what I’ve spend time looking at and concluding. Could somebody please give me some justification for those believing GH left a better squad than RB?

1: Rafa won the Champions League with a majority of players Houillier left behind. Whatever argument is considered in opposition of this fact, it remains a fact.

2: Rafa left Roy with a defensive set up, a negative one, and Roy is being judged on this. We all agree that Roy is not good enough for Liverpool, but based on the squad Rafa left, who, in this current day, could perform miracles with what Rafa left?

At Inter, Rafa has the excuse of injuries, are we exempt from that?

What GH left was a squad capable of winning the European Cup, Rafa proved it. What Rafa has left is a club with one proven striker, now argue against that all you will, but its a fact. What GH left is miles better than what Rafa left.

Yes, GH's squad with the addition of a few RH duds we could really have done without: alonso and garcia?

[Thommo's perm]

I dont think its right to compare the two managers.
Both did decent jobs and had some success.
I will leave it at that though as i dont want to start any big arguments on christmas eve.

True
Goodwill to all men.
Even Rafa

[Igor Zidane]

If rafa won the champions league with houlliers team , then why didn't houllier win it then ?

[Thommo's perm]

If rafa won the champions league with houlliers team , then why didn't houllier win it then ?

Durrr
Because he was sacked...

[Igor Zidane]

If rafa won the champions league with houlliers team , then why didn't houllier win it then ?

Durrr
Because he was sacked...

Very good , durrr.  If it was so easy to win the champions league with the sh!te houllier left why didn't houllier win it when he was manager .