Liverpool FC Forum

[112-1077774096]

I think if the shoe was on the other foot and Xavi was at another big club like  madrid or bara and we was linked with him we would be foaming at the mouth and making room in the middle for him.

When gerrad was going to go 2 seasons ago a big comfert for me was Xavi staying.

He had a average season but he had a couple of great ones.

That boy can drop a ball on a 20p peice.

xavi who? we are talking about xabi and you come in and start talking about someone else   

 

and drop a ball onto a 20p piece, yes but the problem at athens in injury time was that the 20p piece in question was in someones pocket in the 8th row of the stands

[bigmick]

Since we're talking about the form of Alonso over the past couple of seasons, it's probably worth having a stab at the reason for the "fact" that his second and third years haven't quite appeared to match up to the first one.

Firstly, and I guess in a round about way this is Rafa's fault, when we first bought Alonso we were a fairly poor side to be truthful and by virtue of the fact that Xabi could generally be relied upon to pass it to a bloke wearing red, he stood out a fair bit. We'd been brought up the previous couple of seasons on Salif Diao and Bruno Cheyrou, to be fair to him if Stu is half the player he says he is he'd probably have looked good in that midfield. That said, I don't mean to diminish the ability of Alonso, he was then and remains the best passer of a football in the Premier League. My hunch is that few on here would disagree with that.

Secondly and the main reason his performances have dipped a tad is of course because teams have learnt to counteract him better. How do you counteract him? Well firstly you don't let him lift his head and see the pass. You smother him by making sure that whenever he recieves the ball there is somebody snapping at his heels preventing him from getting his head up. Usually this will be left to the opposition central striker in Xabi's case, dropping in and making it hard for the full-backs to feed it into him, ruffling the Spaniards feathers if they do. Make him work for the space, compress him from both sides and hey presto, you've dimished his game a little. Further to that and as Lando quite correctly alluded to, the lack of pace up front has made it harder for him to feed it in behind. I would have thought that if one of the stats lads looked up last season, he like as not hit Cisse quite a few times in goalscoring positions. The Frenchman probably missed more than he scored but even so, I'd be surprised if he only had one assist. Also, and as one thing has led to another teams have become much better at phasing out Alonso and therefore screening out Gerrard when he plays wide right. A double whammy really, the playmaker is largely shackled and the most talented and destructive player in the team becomes isolated on the wing.

Selling him and moving Gerrard inside to play with the more workmanlike and therefore probably more compatible Masherano is one solution, albeit a little too drastic for some, including me if we genuinely have a choice. If he is to stay though, I would like to see Xabi finding it in his game to play much more box to box, much less latitude and much more longditude. Before people jump on me I'm not talking about converting him to being an attacking midfielder, just a more complete one who is much harder to phase out of the game.

A midfield player like Alonso who lacks any pace, must be much more clever than Xabi is being in order to influence the game consistently. For sure he makes plenty of tackles, and covers well but these are attributes which should be an add-on to his influence, not the sum total of it. He should watch tapes of people like Zidane, the way he moved between positions, drifting in and out with anticipation and guile making him very hard to pin down. To me Xabi is currently far too easy for a team to talk about midweek and then execute a plan on.

I know people probably aren't that interested but just in case anybody wants to talk about football for a change, I thought I'd chuck a couple of theories into the mix.   

[Sabre]

Secondly and the main reason his performances have dipped a tad is of course because teams have learnt to counteract him better. How do you counteract him? Well firstly you don't let him lift his head and see the pass. You smother him by making sure that whenever he recieves the ball there is somebody snapping at his heels preventing him from getting his head up.

Yes some teams have managed to do that. But in football there's nothing for free eh? the effort you make upper in the pitch is paid somewhere else. So not that "Presto".

It's a bit like Kaka, despite being totally different players. Was Kaka shíte in the final? For me absolutely not. He's more "controlled" at some extent, but he manages to give drops of his quality anyway AND of course, the effort you make to control him, you pay it. There's nothing for free.

Usually this will be left to the opposition central striker in Xabi's case, dropping in and making it hard for the full-backs to feed it into him, ruffling the Spaniards feathers if they do. Make him work for the space, compress him from both sides and hey presto, you've dimished his game a little. Further to that and as Lando quite correctly alluded to, the lack of pace up front has made it harder for him to feed it in behind. I would have thought that if one of the stats lads looked up last season, he like as not hit Cisse quite a few times in goalscoring positions. The Frenchman probably missed more than he scored but even so, I'd be surprised if he only had one assist. Also, and as one thing has led to another teams have become much better at phasing out Alonso and therefore screening out Gerrard when he plays wide right. A double whammy really, the playmaker is largely shackled and the most talented and destructive player in the team becomes isolated on the wing.

I agree he has no pace. He never had. And it's one of the reasons he has always been a holding midfielder. As a poster said somewhere else, his balance is not great, and he doesn't make dribblings, he could never play the position that Fabregras plays for Arsenal.

So yes, you can make the ancestral tactic of blocking the start of the play. That tactic is as old as the hills, and you do it when you have something to fear there. But the effort you make there is paid, and somewhere else in the pitch some player will be more free.

Selling him and moving Gerrard inside to play with the more workmanlike and therefore probably more compatible Masherano is one solution, albeit a little too drastic for some, including me if we genuinely have a choice. If he is to stay though, I would like to see Xabi finding it in his game to play much more box to box, much less latitude and much more longditude. Before people jump on me I'm not talking about converting him to being an attacking midfielder, just a more complete one who is much harder to phase out of the game.

Well at least you put Football points, which I'm very grateful to read. Could you explain me why do you think Mascherano is probably more compatible than Alonso with Gerrard?

It's something I read here and there, and also in the press, but maybe I'd like to read an explanation of why is that.

And I disagree about the point of box to box. If we want to play 2 strikers, 2 wingers, and Gerrard in the middle, there must be someone who sacrifices a bit in the process. I like winnning games 4-0, but I also like not to concede goals. For me Alonso has to choose very well when he goes up, and he shouldn't go often, only for a range effort, or when the opposition is very "concentrated" in one side of the pitch due to the roaming of lines. And of course some player should watch Alonso's back. I wouldn't ask him to lurk the area often, to be honest.


Thank you.

[radun5]

Cracking thread this an it's taken me a hour to catch up with the last 48 hours worth of posts. It does look like it's pretty much run it's course though.

A mixture of views on here which seem to fall into three different camps, FWIW I fall into the 3rd camp.

1 - We would be absolutely crazy to sell Alonso. One of our very best players and crucial to the future progression of the club.

2 - Sell him for the good of the team if the right offer comes in. He has performed below his own high standards the past 18 months and it's a great opportunity to build the team around Stevie.g in the middle of the park.

3 - Cracking player, we should keep him. Don't want to see him leave. Would only sell him if it was necessary in order to bring in the likes of E'to, Villa or Tevez to play up front.

This is the best rational post of the thread ... sums it up for me.

Nobody said Alonso is not a good player. The only real divergence is whether he should be sold in a very specific situation which may not happen. I cannot understand the passion and the abuse for such small differences in opinion, as everybody rates Alonso pretty much the same, only difference is some would sacrifice him IF THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION. 

Oh, and Manhattan's post on Alonso's "brother" was best humorous post of the thread for me. 

[Sabre]

Alonso's brother is absolutely shíte as a footballer.



A matter of genetics mate. Xabi got the genetics of the father the footballer. Mikel the brother has the genetics of the mother.



Brothers.

[66-1112520797]

Selling him and moving Gerrard inside to play with the more workmanlike and therefore probably more compatible Masherano is one solution, albeit a little too drastic for some, including me if we genuinely have a choice. If he is to stay though, I would like to see Xabi finding it in his game to play much more box to box, much less latitude and much more longditude. Before people jump on me I'm not talking about converting him to being an attacking midfielder, just a more complete one who is much harder to phase out of the game.

I tell you what I think that is pretty much spot on, people have been saying for a while now and it hasnt gone unoticed that teams like to ruffle the feathers of Xabi. It really stifles his passing game and like you said a double whammy is hit when gerrard is stuck out wide.

But on your quote there Mick, and I maybe wrong buy I cant see Xabi Alonso finding much more to his game than what he's already got. He isnt the most mobile of players, infact he's quite slow unlike Mascha, and I cant honestly see him becoming a box to box midfielder. Maybe not the best example, but its almost like asking Jan Molby to become one too.

Alonsos passing game, and the dictating part has been found out by other teams in the Prem, not Europe.
But like you said Mick if Xabi played well in his first season, I wouldnt just put it down to the fact most of his teamates made him look good. That is true to an extent, but I think the main reason was because oppossing teams didnt know or learn to smother him when he first arrived. Most see to of caught on to that now, and surely now the team we have and players around all baring Gonzalez are better players than the team we had back then ?

Maybe Rafa's partly to blame with his tactics and what not, but IMO it appears he's been found out so to speak. And rather than having an average par performance season from a central midfielder who passing game has been smothered, although albeit a brilliant defensive player.

I'd prefer a partnership for the first time in a few years in the center of midfield where the two central men work in tandem with eachother. One doing the defensive stuff and the other complimenting him with the box to box things and central offensive spark and creativity that our CM has missed for a couple of years.

[Sabre]

Alonso passing game, and the dictating part has been found out by other teams in the Prem, not Europe.

I agree your post at some extent. But you honestly don't think that, do you? Top teams have thoroughly studied opposition teams, and that's precisely one of the things LFC does best aswell. At that level there are not many secrets, IMHO.

[bigmick]

I think Masherano and Gerrard are probably more compatable then Alonso and Gerrard for a couple of reasons Sabes. The main one being that as Masherano's game is very much more about being a defensive midfielder it seems to me rather than a holding one, it means that he is less likely to be trying to occupy the same areas of the pitch as Gerrard than Alonso would.

Defensive, holding, what's the difference? Well I think that Masherano's main focus is as a spoiler, whereas Alonso's main focus is, or ought to be in a creative sense. I've no doubt that Masherano can influence games with moments of brilliance as was the case with his marvellous goal in the World Cup, and similarly there is no doubt that through brilliant anticipation and positioning Alonso can spoil, but the focus of each player is different in my opinion.

This manifests itself as a problem when Alsonso and Gerrard play together in the centre because the feeling remains that both are trying to be the fulcrum of the team at the same time, coming back to recieve it off the defenders, looking to hit long passes etc. My hunch is that Masherano would be much happier to offload it five yards to Gerrard and have done with it than Alonso would, which in turn would make the captain more effective.

For Gerrard to be in the centre, he too has to able to move up, and crucially down the pitch as well to be at his most effective. Otherwise, if he is being encouraged to put distance between himself and his central midfild partner in order to play to Alonso's strengths, he runs the risk of being strangled by an oppoistion deep lying midfielder, a la Makeleli.

If we must play Gerrard centrally, (and at the moment we are struggling to get him into the game from wide right for a number of reasons so I guess we must) then you've got to go the whole hog and build the team around him in my view. That means pairing him with a player who is happy to be the water carrier. My hunch is that Masherano is more suited to the role.

The other thing is of course that Alonso/Masherano at the moment clearly doesn't fit as central midfield partnership either. It may do though if Xabi can develop his game in the way I alluded to earlier. Curiously, if he got about the pitch a bit more it wouldn't just help him fit with Masherano, it would help Gerrard fit on the right as well.

[radun5]

Xabi should tell his brother to let Hamilton win the damn race!!!!!

Sabre, this is the brother Manhattan was talking about.

How Manhattan did not get "funniest member of forum" award is beyond me.

[66-1112520797]

Well at least you put Football points, which I'm very grateful to read. Could you explain me why do you think Mascherano is probably more compatible than Alonso with Gerrard?

Could please explain why Xabi should get the nod ahead of Gerrard in the middle, or better still answer my why Xabi and Gerrard arent picked together by Benitez ?

[66-1112520797]

Alonso passing game, and the dictating part has been found out by other teams in the Prem, not Europe.

I agree your post at some extent. But you honestly don't think that, do you? Top teams have thoroughly studied opposition teams, and that's precisely one of the things LFC does best aswell. At that level there are not many secrets, IMHO.

When I say that, I'm emphasising the smothering effect of Alonso, where teams have realised to snap at his heels and give him less time on the ball, inadvertantly effects the time he has to pick out his pass.

So yes I do actually believe that.

[Sabre]

While I have not the same feeling about Gerrard and Alonso "stepping over" each other, at least, that's a a good explanation. I'm a bit of a maniac, I'm not píssed off when they tell me something, but when they don't explain me why and they state it happily.

At least you explain your point superbly.

[Sabre]

Well at least you put Football points, which I'm very grateful to read. Could you explain me why do you think Mascherano is probably more compatible than Alonso with Gerrard?

Could please explain why Xabi should get the nod ahead of Gerrard in the middle, or better still answer my why Xabi and Gerrard arent picked together by Benitez ?

I already have explained so.

I think that as soon as we have the positions that Gerrard has been playing this two last seasons, you'll see Gerrard in the CM again, no matter what. Out of the 3 places of the CM, one will be for Gerrad, and the other one for Alonso *OR* Mascherano.

Gato Busta has explained it all better than me in another post, if you're interested. He makes an analysis of the two formations we play usually (442 4411).

Hopefully with that new guy Leiva, and with a right MIDFIELDER (as we already have a right winger), then Gerrard won't play again in that position. I'd sign up an Arteta, a versatile player that can do the CM, RM positions (not RW).

In a nutshell, Rafa has preffered to deploy Gerrard in other places (this is pure especulation and feeling like Bigmick's) because there were zones of the pitch and roles that were uncovered, while the middle was well covered by Alonso and a ball winner, or now that Mascherano has come.

But as soon as those positions are well covered? Gerrard, the best player of the squad will play his favourite position. And mascherano and Alonso will compete for the other spot. It will depend on opposition.

[66-1112520797]

While I have not the same feeling about Gerrard and Alonso "stepping over" each other, at least, that's a a good explanation. I'm a bit of a maniac, I'm not píssed off when they tell me something, but when they don't explain me why and they state it happily.

At least you explain your point superbly.

I actually think its the perfect explanation, I can not put words so well. But IMO thats spot on, so you can stop picking holes now, and explain why Alonso and Gerrard are compatible.

[Sabre]

While I have not the same feeling about Gerrard and Alonso "stepping over" each other, at least, that's a a good explanation. I'm a bit of a maniac, I'm not píssed off when they tell me something, but when they don't explain me why and they state it happily.

At least you explain your point superbly.

I actually think its the perfect explanation, I can not put words so well. But IMO thats spot on, so you can to picking holes now, and explain why Alonso and Gerrard are compatible.

I think they're compatible because their attributes are compatible. Alonso doesn't know running with the ball, carrying the ball. Mascherano and Gerrard do know doing that. So just as Arteta and Aranburu did in the past, those players complement perfectly what Alonso lacks.

If there's space to think Alonso thinks and distributes. If there's not Alonso stops, Gerrard approaches and you try to give him the ball so that he carries it.


Plus, they're compatible because Alonso reads well the matches, and makes well the covers, and he doesn't mind doing that job. I don't believe Alonso is not a not disciplined player when it's required.

And what about you Bamaga-man, do you think Bigmick is spot on then? or have you something to add of yourself?