Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

and another soundbite from the tactical genius last night

I personally think the name deserves more respect than that.

[tubby]

So is it time to panic yet?

[tubby]

When Rafa came, if he'd have promised you the Champions League win in 2005, and told you the price you have to pay is a losing final appearance in 2007 and an early exit the next season, everyone here would have snatched his f*cking hands off.

Absolutely shameful excuses for fans on this forum after a defeat. Win together, lose together. Calling for a new manager and new signings we can't have every time we put in a bad performance is a c*nt's trick.

Before the season everyone with sense said that the league was a long shot, and we were always still going to be two or three signings away from where Rafa wants us to be. Nobody should be surprised if we win nothing this season and most things next season as far as I'm concerned - we're clearly still a work in progress.

Good shout. Thats true but its always going to be harder in reality to stomache than just knowing it pre season.

[Sabre]

When Rafa came, if he'd have promised you the Champions League win in 2005, and told you the price you have to pay is a losing final appearance in 2007 and an early exit the next season, everyone here would have snatched his f*cking hands off.

Absolutely shameful excuses for fans on this forum after a defeat. Win together, lose together. Calling for a new manager and new signings we can't have every time we put in a bad performance is a c*nt's trick.

Before the season everyone with sense said that the league was a long shot, and we were always still going to be two or three signings away from where Rafa wants us to be. Nobody should be surprised if we win nothing this season and most things next season as far as I'm concerned - we're clearly still a work in progress.

Good shout. Thats true but its always going to be harder in reality to stomache than just knowing it pre season.

Yep. Don't hear to this biased Spaniard. Hear Ivor, hear Dalglish, hear Igor, hear Leon.

Supporters that go to the stadium, Scousers (well Dalglish hasn't the accent but when it comes to support he's more scouse than any scouser), and posters that know well the club.

[jedwards]

The correct passing game is not on Benitez's book or the previous manager, since when you see LFC team is being out passed and out played off the park !! The LFC team of old worked hard on pass and move and create space and create chances, please just watch a lesson on how to pass and move and score on Sunday when Aresnal's new kids will kindly entertain us when they will steal the show of producing an attractive and constructive football, that Benitez does not belief in that kind of football, long and hopeful balls, yes he is a strong coach for negative boaring football.

Every season under Benitez over the passed two seasons had been shambles littered with bad team display, and too many of his excuses that he does not have the right palyers, etc,  a lots of rubbish, just to cover his back , there had been no one occasion where he does take the blame for his arrogant mistakes, which it is in fact, are too many !!!!!.

[puroresu]

The correct passing game is not on Benitez's book or the previous manager, since when you see LFC team is being out passed and out played off the park !! The LFC team of old worked hard on pass and move and create space and create chances, please just watch a lesson on how to pass and move and score on Sunday when Aresnal's new kids will kindly entertain us when they will steal the show of producing an attractive and constructive football, that Benitez does not belief in that kind of football, long and hopeful balls, yes he is a strong coach for negative boaring football.

Every season under Benitez over the passed two seasons had been shambles littered with bad team display, and too many of his excuses that he does not have the right palyers, etc,  a lots of rubbish, just to cover his back , there had been no one occasion where he does take the blame for his arrogant mistakes, which it is in fact, are too many !!!!!.

I agree. It does not matter what players we had as Rafa does not believe in attacking attractive football.  He is so negative its beyond belief. His so frightened of players losing the ball that any imagination or flair they may have is taken out of them and replaced with hard work, organisation and efficiency.  How can the likes of Kuyt start for Liverpool. Again his a rafa type of player where work ethic and they ability to run around all day is more important than the ability to do something constructive with a football.  Way to combat Rafa's tactics is to just play two banks of 4 and allow us possession.  Make us break them down and its a struggle.

[112-1077774096]

we're clearly still a work in progress.

i disagree mate, i think we have the team to do it this year with the correct management, what i mean by management is tactics, teams selection etc.

i mean we have the best midfield in the world don't we, we have one of the best managers in the world, one of the best keepers in the world, one of the meanest defences in europe, we have enough to win the league surely.

sadly what we don't have is a manager who can make his mind up what he wants, of course he has a great reputation, but what he doesn't have is an idea how to get the best out of his team, we have all these superstars and rafa chooses to nullify them with his defensive mindset.

just for once rafa set up to win, lets not worry about the oppo, let them worry about us (i wish i had a quid for every time i said that the last few years). don't over elaborate rafa, football is a simple game, you have all the tools to do the job, you have all the power tools mate, you just don't know how to plug them in, you will use a band saw one week and then you will use a chainsaw the following week to do the same job.

every year its been the same, every year he eventually realises that he has to play a settled team, but every year he realises this when its all gone wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you try and force a square peg in a round hole, it isn't going to fit, don't waste you time, just fit the square peg in the square hole right from the start.

I want us to get back to playing football so we can see all the talent we have, we have players who cost millions not being used correctly or not being used at all while rafa fiddles with ideas. sorry guys but if he hasn't worked it out after 3 years i fear he will never work it out, I think the guy is starting to come across as foolish now, listening to his interviews, i seriously hope he doesn't actually believe the things he is saying or we will never progress, personally i think he has lost the dressing room but the players will back him in public, a top player must be able to see when something isn't working and they must eventually get annoyed by whats going on

[bigxchris]

After looking over the last few games one of our big problems is the ability to make space on the pitch we seem so inept at it that it’s almost unbelievable.  I lost count of the amount of times that players were just static on the pitch when we are moving forward.

Watching Babel last night made this so clear, his running at the opposition was amazing but the rest of the team didn’t budge, the movement was terrible leading to Babel running into 4 defenders and having to pass back or lose the ball.  You can see it in nearly all our recent games everyone stands around waiting for the ball but not moving properly to make the space to get it, leading to rushed passes and undue pressure on the back four when the ball inevitably finds its way back into our half after we have run out of ideas, which then leads to a game of “lets chuck the ball up the pitch and hope someone get on the end of it”.  I don’t know what has caused this or why we constantly do it but it ruins the game and quashes all credibility and creativity going forward making us so predicable and easy to defend against.

The team does not look cohesive, passing is sloppy and our complete lack of vision (bar the odd blast of decent forward balls) ruins any chance of a decent passing game.  This isn’t isolated to one player, it’s the whole team.

And finally, our set pieces are still terrible.

[Sabre]

Big mick, I'll use your post as a skeleton for my reply, meaning I like the structure of your questions (where we are at, where we are heding to), not a reply to your post, but a post based on your reply.

Clearly we aren't going too well at the moment, one or two things are a little out of sync and we don't look like a good team. I would urge people though when assessing what they're watching to consider that the difference between good and bad is often miniscule in football. It can be a pass which is hit with a fraction less pace, a striker who is confident enough to leave his position and gamble on hitting space, a midfielder who is confident enough to stand still and wait for the space to "emerge" around him rather than headlessly running around. Get all those things wrong, add in a touch of anxiety and you get snatched first touches, hurried shots, mistimed jumps for headers and it all goes wrong. Just remember when we went 3-0 up against Derby, suddenly it was carnival football as a wave of confidence surged through the team. That's what it's like whe you are playing well, this is what its like when you are playing bad.





To answer Leons question as to why? Well probably all of the things he has listed have made a contribution, though some more than others. Rotation was obviously (well its obvious to me anyway) the main factor in our original loss of form, Pako I've really no idea about because I'm not sure what he actually did aside from some second hand cliches about "arm around the shoulder" stuff, Crouch could probably have played more although it must be said he has been poor when he has, and the players are collectively playing rubbish at the moment. Another option which wasn't included is of course the overall management of the team, ie the manager. Clearly if we continued to play like this ad infinitum then he would have to go.

This is very true. We have discussed a lot about the whys, and probably we agree on the whys, we differ in how much importance to give to different whys. But there's no doubt that we are in a, I think you call it, "tight spot". There are things to improve, and that's Rafa's work.

You make a very true and important statement about how slim is the frontier between very good and bad.

Based on current form we won't win anything and will probably finish mid-table, but obviously that won't happen. Either Rafa will improve things or somebody else will, and we'll finish I am absolutely certain near the top of the league and we'll have Cup run, although perhaps not in the Champions League it seems.

Where are we heading to? I know I sound happy clappy, but as much as I admit we're not doing a good football as we speak, and we're in a tight spot, I have trust in Rafa and quality footballers we have.

Playing at our average level, not current level, Winning Oporto at home, Besiktas at home, and getting a draw in Marseille or a victory with them probably qualified, wouldn't be very strange to me, so we might not be as off in the CL as it may seem our sad point.

The league? even with this blip, and this problems, and this injuries, and this damned rotation, we're far from being out the league. I truly expect to compete seriously for this competition, as I've said numerous times. Losing against Arsenal would be dangerous, but, quite frankly, a good stadium to end a good run is Anfield. Good runs do not last forever. I think we'll get over this tight spot and will compete for the league.

What to do going forward? Well we've got to make ourselves difficult to beat, particularly on Sunday. It's become a massive game for us now, not quite a must win or even a musn't lose, but a three or four nil drubbing would probably be a fatal blow to our title aspirations, and quite possibly Rafa's tenure.

I actually think the rotation has been binned for the time being. We made two changes from the Saturday game tonight, Sissoko was obviously a must, while Babel was a logical replacement for Benayoun. There wasn't any wholesale changing the team for no obvious reason and I don't think we'll see that anymore TBH. My guess is that we'll go with a largely settled team from now on, and when our great white hopes comes back from injury it'll be almost the same eleven every week.





If we can get something going over the next three or four weeks then all is not lost. We may be almost out of the Champions League but most people were saying before the thing started that they didn't give a feck about it anyway, me included. IT's time now to press on in the league.

Make absolutely no mistake about it though, the manager will now be under extreme pressure. It really isn't going to wash in the overall scheme of things to stick to the "it's the players" mantra, when the manager assembled the squad, picks the team, decides on tactics, substitutes whare he sees fit, freezes out who he doesn't fancy and is supposedly charged with motivating the players. Rafa has proven himself a very shrewd football man in buiding a fine squad of players. Whether or not he is capable of being successful in the English Premier League or not will be decided before Christmas I think.

I think Rafa will stick to the methods of the last 3 years. I agree Rafa has things to sort out, and I think he will. This is not a situation of real pressure to him IMHO, meaning, he's used to a more hostile press, more booing fans, and more "mad fans" calling names.

He won't leave. He only will leave if he's sacked. Quite frankly, I don't think that changing manager in October or November is a good idea whatsoever. Not that Rafa cannot be questioned, but if some people or the club want Rafa out of his tenure, I'd take those decissions in summer.

When the club has said goodbye to Pako recently, the club has said "goodbye" and acknowledged the success he has achieved in his stance here. That means the club thinks this past 3 seasons are far from being a failure. So, it would be strange for me that they'd take the decission of sacking Rafa before summer. Even in summer (provided that we fail and I don't think we will) it would surprise me.

Anyhow, with Rafa or not, the club will continue, it's the club who have to put things in perspective and take decissions, I will be a fan anyway... but I think it would be a very Spaniard mistake to sack Rafa early. Very Valencia-esque.

[burjennio]

How about we keep the critism to a minimal until either

a. we are officially out of the CL or
b. Arsenal win on Sunday and were 9 points behind them, realistically out of the title race

There is alot of similarites to the season Manu had 2 seasons ago when they had a poor CL campaign and start to the league season, but it all came good last year didnt it? Have some FAITH

[puroresu]

After looking over the last few games one of our big problems is the ability to make space on the pitch we seem so inept at it that it’s almost unbelievable.  I lost count of the amount of times that players were just static on the pitch when we are moving forward.

Watching Babel last night made this so clear, his running at the opposition was amazing but the rest of the team didn’t budge, the movement was terrible leading to Babel running into 4 defenders and having to pass back or lose the ball.  You can see it in nearly all our recent games everyone stands around waiting for the ball but not moving properly to make the space to get it, leading to rushed passes and undue pressure on the back four when the ball inevitably finds its way back into our half after we have run out of ideas, which then leads to a game of “lets chuck the ball up the pitch and hope someone get on the end of it”.  I don’t know what has caused this or why we constantly do it but it ruins the game and quashes all credibility and creativity going forward making us so predicable and easy to defend against.

The team does not look cohesive, passing is sloppy and our complete lack of vision (bar the odd blast of decent forward balls) ruins any chance of a decent passing game.  This isn’t isolated to one player, it’s the whole team.

And finally, our set pieces are still terrible.

The lack of movement is shocking but why is this the case?  Its not just one off's its every week so who is to blame for this?  What is going on in training, how are the team told to play?  Going by what Rafa said last night the team are doing what he is telling them to do and everything is fine we are just unlucky.

If he thinks a Liverpool side playing like this is conducive to winning games then he has lost it.

[ConnO'var]

..... but this club was brought up on a bit more than football lad.

As supporters, we have been through thick and thin in equal measure, for all the AC Milans there have been Bristol Cities, for all the West Hams there have been MArsielles and for every Beskitas there have been roma's.

What sets us apart is the vigour with which we stand side by side with our team, our fans and our manager in times of trouble. Toe to toe with the enemy, be it press, adversity, form or anotehr team.

To sing "You will never walk alone" at the start of a game, and use it as your anthem, and then to boo and jeer or demand resignations in hte very next breathe is more than hypocritical, its fuc.king disgraceful.

We are the most succesful team in English football history, but we have not won every single game on the way.

At Anfield, against St Etienne, when all looked lost, we screamed and shouted and cajouled and we won through.

At half time in Constantinople, when we looked dead and buried by the Roman invaders, we stood together as one. We gave everythign we could to the players, and in return they gave eveything they could to us. the result, our most magnificent and joyous victory ever.

Yes players get it wrong sometimes, yes managers make mistakes, but after just a few, so early i nthe campaign when all is not lost and there is very much everythign to play for are we going to desert our posts ?

Are we going to turn on the man, the men who have served us so well in the past ?

I wont.

Admirable post, Leon.

Like you, I have no intention of deserting my post either.

I have a few suggestions/comments however, so I'd appreciate it if you could bear with me.

Our club's history has been blessed with successes brought about by absolutely brilliant managers. Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish. There has never been any reason to doubt them and as such the loyalties of the fans never wavered and each and every one of us we're firmly behind the gaffer every step of the way.

Then came the barren years... blighted with despair after a string of managers failed in their attempts to bring glory home. Throughout it all, the fans remained supportive and kept faith with Souness, Evans, Houllier and now Benitez. The support has always been unwavering.... oft times bordering on the blinkered. It was the way that we'd always done things. The seige mentality that every LFC fan adhered to was brought to the fore each and every time.

But mate, football and the world for that matter, has changed. We cannot live in the past and just blindly accept that the way we've always done things is the way to go forward. Can we continue with traditions like the boot room and getting plastered after every game? I'm not sure but I'm guessing you would agree that these things may not have a place in the modern game. We must evolve lest we get left behind. It is my opinion that the seige mentality that we as fans have always had is Jurassic and it is time to change.

As fans, maybe it's time to demand more. Oh.. not by being complete @rseholes at games and booing the players and the gaffer and walking out early and all that sort of rubbish... we're not the barcodes after all... but by being constructive and critisizing where the situation merits it.... because as fans, we deserve it. Without us, the club would be nothing.... Our great history was built on the backs of the players and managers that graced Anfield.... but never forget that without us in the stands, LFC would be nothing.... a mere footnote in the football annals.

We do not deserve to be treated to the heartless, spineless, clueless and any other type of "less" that was served to us on the field yesterday... (I did watch the game btw, in case you were wondering... imo, we were dire) God only knows how many fans spend their money (most of them can ill forward) by travelling to far flung places just to support the team they love. You've been there before so you must understand how that must feel.

If we continue to support blindly and accept the situation as it is and constantly live in the hope and faith that things will improve without anything being done to rectify the situation, then we WILL be mired in mediocrity for the forseeable future.

Is that something you can accept for the club you love?.. I know I would never be able to stomach it. Succes is not the divine right of Liverpool Football Club.... we have to earn it... and the displays of late is not something I am prepared to accept.

It is time that hard questions are asked and FFS... Answers and Solutions given.....

[66-1112520797]

When Rafa came, if he'd have promised you the Champions League win in 2005, and told you the price you have to pay is a losing final appearance in 2007 and an early exit the next season, everyone here would have snatched his f*cking hands off.

Absolutely shameful excuses for fans on this forum after a defeat. Win together, lose together. Calling for a new manager and new signings we can't have every time we put in a bad performance is a c*nt's trick.

Before the season everyone with sense said that the league was a long shot, and we were always still going to be two or three signings away from where Rafa wants us to be. Nobody should be surprised if we win nothing this season and most things next season as far as I'm concerned - we're clearly still a work in progress.

Good shout. Thats true but its always going to be harder in reality to stomache than just knowing it pre season.

Yep. Don't hear to this biased Spaniard. Hear Ivor, hear Dalglish, hear Igor, hear Leon.

Supporters that go to the stadium, Scousers (well Dalglish hasn't the accent but when it comes to support he's more scouse than any scouser), and posters that know well the club.

I smelt poo when I hovered over this post.

[Sabre]

Really? Probably you had poo on your nose all the day, go and check it mate 

[66-1112520797]

I knew you'd bite