Where we are at and why.... - And where from here

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Wilhelmsson » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:22 pm

Avi Cohen wrote:I wish I had your confidence going into the Arsenal game, Wilhelmsson. I personally can't see us getting anything out of this game myself. Arsenal are on fire at the moment - and even if they weren't, we'd still make it easy for them. Why? Because Rafa won't pick at team that plays to Liverpool's strengths - he will pick a team he RECKONS will beat the other team. That's no way to run a club that hopes to win the league - leave that to Villa or Birmingham.

Sure Rafa knows what his best 11 is, but what he wants is 22+ interchangeable players  and the end result is a lack of fluidity, confidence, individuality and desire in the team. Having played the game myself, albeit at a low level, we played the same 11 every week (no choice , but anyway...) and what I got used to is what the players in front of me was able to do. IE, I knew, out of habit, that our winger would always come inside. Now, if I know this I can prepare if he loses the ball and adjust my position accordingly. It becomes instinct, second-nature - you do it without thinking about it.

That can't happen with Rafa's team because the team is not playing with each other for more than two games running. Some posters here say 'He only changed once in the last two weeks' or some W*nk like that, but it has a cumulative effect - you can't expect everything to click into place because he's played more or less the same team in a row. This has to be done over months and seasons (bar injury and form).

We're not doing the basics of football right - control, passing and movement. These players are professional footballers. It's almost in their genetic make-up at this stage to control, pass and move with relative ease because they've been doing it all their lives - and some cases that's all they've done. They live and breathe football. I fear that they're not asked to be footballers - they're asked to be a cog in a machine - that's no way to play football.

I just want to see Liverpool playing some decent football for a change. Is that too much to ask?

This is not disrespecting the teams that Arsenal have faced so far, but none of the teams they have played yet have been anywhere near them in terms of quality. Liverpool will be Arsenal’s first stern test and I am not convinced that Arsenal will be able to play with the same finesse and fortune against LFC than they have against the likes of Spurs, Slavia Prague etc.

The clubs fortunes have to change somewhere, so why not against Arsenal? I share you concern about the way in which Rafa selects his teams; I feel that more often than not, Rafa selects his team based on the opposition’s strengths and weaknesses, not the strengths of Liverpool, I naively hope he’ll change this one day, but I can dream can’t I?

FWIW, even if Rafa selects a team based on who he feels is capable of beating Arsenal, I can’t see this having a large impact on the overall result. If the team wins then Rafa was spot on with his team selection and if the team loses, then Rafa called it wrong, that’s generally the jist of things around here.

I share your concerns about the size of the squad and the fact that Rafa wants to use twenty two interchangeable players, but I feel Rafa can use a large enough squad effectively providing he use pragmatism in his rotation and not the rotation he has been implementing so far. As for the second nature aspect of your post, it’s spot on IMO, but even you must realise it’s impossible to play the same eleven every week, sometimes there are three matches a week, you can’t honestly expect the same team to play in each of the matches. This is where rotation becomes useful IMO.

You make valuable points and points that I accept and share, we’ll both have to wait and see how things pan out, but what I want is winning football first and attractive football second, if both can be combined, then wonderful, if not then as long as the team is winning then I couldn’t careless.
'There's Man Utd and Man City at the bottom of Division 1, and by God they'll take some shifting.' - Bill Shankly.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:19 am

Sabre wrote:
peewee wrote:the dreaded vote of confidence


Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks insists Rafael Benitez still has the full backing of the club's hierarchy and has dismissed criticism of the Spaniard's rotation policy.

Benitez has been criticised for his selective use of summer signing Fernando Torres so far this season and Tuesday's 2-1 defeat by Besiktas left them bottom of their Champions League group.

But Hicks, who owns the club with fellow American George Gillett, told Sky Sports News: "We back Rafa. He's the right manager.

"Rafa's rotation has been his policy for three years.

"Rafa's ability to coach and manage in the Champions League should be unquestioned.

"We had a disappointing loss because we got outplayed by the Turks.

"I think we have our work cut out, but yes we can qualify. We have to win the next three games."



at least hicks has the balls to admit we were outplayed

IMHO, it's not a matter of balls.

Coaches, especially out of England do not use press conferences to be totally honest. Rafa has a well known pattern in his words.

Rafa knows we're not playing well. Rafa knows that when you lose a game, you cannot really just think "you controlled" the game.

But we should know that we haven't seen Rafa slagging a player saying he was not good enough. In this times, he prefers to attract the pressure and the criticism rather than to put it on the shoulders of the player. And by the looks of it, he's accomplished that goal.

I wouldn't expect that in the post match team talk he told the players "well done lads, we controlled the game". Probably he was angry with himself and the players.

No one, not even Rafa thinks that there aren't problems to be sorted out.

well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:30 am

peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:43 am

LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:46 am

peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

Ever since I received a PM from him saying "Grow some balls" I decided hes an idiot....I grew a sunflower but no balls...
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:47 am

peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

No, not trying to be clever, just a tongue in cheek comment. I would have thought this was obvious. Can I not say three innocuous words without you jumping down my throat and immediately looking for a fight? You are unbelievable at times Peewee. 

If you want to stoke up another of your infamous spats, I'm not interested. That's all you seem to be interested in these days.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:49 am

Kharhaz wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

Ever since I received a PM from him saying "Grow some balls" I decided hes an idiot....I grew a sunflower but no balls...

Trust you to jump in on the act. PM intended solely as a point of reflecting your attitude towards me.
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:51 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

Ever since I received a PM from him saying "Grow some balls" I decided hes an idiot....I grew a sunflower but no balls...

Trust you to jump in on the act.

Your the one who got personal.
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:52 am

Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

Ever since I received a PM from him saying "Grow some balls" I decided hes an idiot....I grew a sunflower but no balls...

Trust you to jump in on the act.

Your the one who got personal.

You accuse me of not getting to the point, I get to the point, and then you react as If I'm Adolf fecking Hitler.

Make your mind up.
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:54 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
peewee wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:well you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is

.....in your opinion  :;):

of course in my opinon, but i don't really see why you choose to get involved. is that how you spend your life, trawling through forums trying to find simple things you can post on to try and appear clever.


peewee sits back and waits for a further post with an explanation to prove he is right    :eyebrow

Ever since I received a PM from him saying "Grow some balls" I decided hes an idiot....I grew a sunflower but no balls...

Trust you to jump in on the act.

Your the one who got personal.

You accuse me of not getting to the point, I get to the point, and then you react as If I'm Adolf fecking Hitler.

Make your mind up.

Hahahahaaha yeah ya got me there ! Nice response give me an hour i'll think of a reply !
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:55 am

oh how expected, thanks for proving me right   :D
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:56 am

Funny
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Postby Pedro Maradona » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:50 am

Avi Cohen wrote:I wish I had your confidence going into the Arsenal game, Wilhelmsson. I personally can't see us getting anything out of this game myself. Arsenal are on fire at the moment - and even if they weren't, we'd still make it easy for them. Why? Because Rafa won't pick at team that plays to Liverpool's strengths - he will pick a team he RECKONS will beat the other team. That's no way to run a club that hopes to win the league - leave that to Villa or Birmingham.

Sure Rafa knows what his best 11 is, but what he wants is 22+ interchangeable players  and the end result is a lack of fluidity, confidence, individuality and desire in the team. Having played the game myself, albeit at a low level, we played the same 11 every week (no choice , but anyway...) and what I got used to is what the players in front of me was able to do. IE, I knew, out of habit, that our winger would always come inside. Now, if I know this I can prepare if he loses the ball and adjust my position accordingly. It becomes instinct, second-nature - you do it without thinking about it.

That can't happen with Rafa's team because the team is not playing with each other for more than two games running. Some posters here say 'He only changed once in the last two weeks' or some W*nk like that, but it has a cumulative effect - you can't expect everything to click into place because he's played more or less the same team in a row. This has to be done over months and seasons (bar injury and form).

We're not doing the basics of football right - control, passing and movement. These players are professional footballers. It's almost in their genetic make-up at this stage to control, pass and move with relative ease because they've been doing it all their lives - and some cases that's all they've done. They live and breathe football. I fear that they're not asked to be footballers - they're asked to be a cog in a machine - that's no way to play football.

I just want to see Liverpool playing some decent football for a change. Is that too much to ask?

excellent post, cant agree more.
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Postby eds » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:20 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
eds wrote:The deluded Rafa apologists can make up all the excuses in the world but the sensible fans know that a loss on the weekend to the baby Gooners will probably be the first nail in the Spainards coffin as we would be 9pts adrift and more worrying falling further behind the Scum. So yeah ALL THE PRESSURE IN THE WORLD is on his shoulders and what he can deliver.

Having seen every single game we have played in the EPL this season, I am not confident at all. We were very lucky last week to get 3pts from Woodison, made even harder by Rafa's brain explosion in the 70th minute. We have been average against average sides and have been only a saved penalty away from having our "undefeated" run broken. That same "undefeated" run which so many of the  apologists keep on harping about on this forum. Whoooopeeeeed FARKIN DO!

It would be interesting to see how many of these deluded Martians were the ones that stuck with Houllier in his last days, when all was lost. I bet that most of them are still well and truly on the "Rafa knows best, I am not listening to anyone else, NANANANANA blocking my ears, NANANANANA" ship.

As for the farkwits that are telling fellow supporters to fark off for pointing out that we are playing like a dog's breakfast.
You f**kers should all be lined up and shot. The supporters of this club are its soul not some overpayed foreign coach who has NO LOYALTY to this club outside his paycheck! When he goes you can all fark off to Real Madrid with him if you love him so much........

Interesting that you, as a loyal supporter and heartbeat of this club joined this forum in the wake of our Istanbul glory.

I might be wrong, and if I am I will apologise, but this club was brought up on a bit more than football lad.

As supporters, we have been through thick and thin in equal measure, for all the AC Milans there have been Bristol Cities, for all the West Hams there have been MArsielles and for every Beskitas there have been roma's.

What sets us apart is the vigour with which we stand side by side with our team, our fans and our manager in times of trouble. Toe to toe with the enemy, be it press, adversity, form or anotehr team.

To sing "You will never walk alone" at the start of a game, and use it as your anthem, and then to boo and jeer or demand resignations in hte very next breathe is more than hypocritical, its fuc.king disgraceful.

We are the most succesful team in English football history, but we have not won every single game on the way.

At Anfield, against St Etienne, when all looked lost, we screamed and shouted and cajouled and we won through.

At half time in Constantinople, when we looked dead and buried by the Roman invaders, we stood together as one. We gave everythign we could to the players, and in return they gave eveything they could to us. the result, our most magnificent and joyous victory ever.

Yes players get it wrong sometimes, yes managers make mistakes, but after just a few, so early i nthe campaign when all is not lost and there is very much everythign to play for are we going to desert our posts ?

Are we going to turn on the man, the men who have served us so well in the past ?

I wont.

Your powers of deduction truly are amazing. Are you insinuating that I joined this forum because of Istanbul. My god lad, you truly are daft. For you to suggest such a ridiculous thing is the equivalent of me saying that you joined this forum in 2004 just when Houllier's reign was coming to an end and that you only joined to boost the "keep the Frenchy" numbers which were dwindling by the second (at that moment in our history). Stupid baseless comments indeed!

You know nothing about me, it is very arrogant to suggest that you do. The barometer of my affinity to this club was when I started supporting it, not when I made my first post on this forum you silly dill. I started supporting this club in the 90s and we all know there was not a single plastic fan-boy bandwagon "supporter" in sight, don't we? ??? 

Your entire post is sentimental rubbish that is based on passion rather then reasoning. Let me get you some tissues as it belongs more in a bad hollywood movie script than on this forum. I am not calling for Rafa's immediate sacking. As I have stated in several of my posts if we come 3rd and 4th again and 1st is daylights ahead of us, we must look at our option at seasons end. If we must part with the Spanaird then so be it. The club is greater then one man, we all know that.

Now moving into your mindless dribble, are you saying that just because our anthem is "You will never walk alone" we don't have a right to criticise and evaluate our own success? What makes us the best club in the world is our passion to understand and love this great game. This understanding comes through logic and reasoning, not mindless "In Rafa we trust" and "everything will come good" mentality which I am personally sick of seeing on this forum.

Let's put things into perspective Leon:

* We are out of the Champions League (bar a miracle)

That means all our time should now be dedicated in winning, let me say that again so people understand, winning the league.

* A lose on the weekend, will mean we are 9pts behind Arsenal so early into the campaign and juging by the way we are playing will be out of the hunt by December.

Yet for some extrodinary reason we have logical and reasonable fans that don't understand the severity of this. We have been knocked out of the Champions League and may be 9pts behind in our domestic competition, 4 years and millions of pounds down the track with a coach who was meant to be showing us glimpses of DOMESTIC success.

Sabre can say everything he wants about burning effigies, turning cars over, but sadly "eso no muestra la passion de personas que so intelligentes y se dan quenta que lo que esta pasando aqui"

So say what you want about being unbeaten in the EPL. And carrying on about slaughtering Romans and other mindless dribble to "rouse the troops". In the end if we lose to Arsenal we will be no closer to winning the EPL than we were four years ago. We have a better squad, but why isn't that translating in the title race?? Could it have something to do with our manager? Surely not!!!! It's the players fault, it's the supporters fault, it's Pako's fault, it's Jose fault for leaving Chelsea, FFS give me a break!!!!!

Oh and when most people read this they will realise you are wrong, so yes I do require an apology.................
"LIVERPOOL: 6 European Cups, 19 Domestic Titles, 3 UEFA Cups, 8 FA Cups, 9 League Cups and 4 European Super Cups and 1 Club World Championship

All other English clubs pale into insignificance!"
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:25 am

good post eds, and done without resorting to abuse. well done mate and you also reiterated some valuable points that many of us have been saying for a long time
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