Liverpool FC Forum

[Effes]

Like most Liverpool fans (I hope) I have an "Official" History of Liverpool book. A large hard back book that I like
to open up to kill half an hour and peruse through any era of the club I was born into, grew up with and love.
I can safely say Liverpool Football club has been the one constant in my life.
I looked through the dark era when we were in the 2nd division. A time when my Dad (RIP) was a season ticket holder -
my God, just imagine how bad that was.
Anyhow, at the end of that decade along came some bloke, and the new Liverpool was born.......... it really made me think.

On a cold Saturday in mid October, Liverpool chairman Tom Williams and director Harry Latham
travelled over the Pennines to watch  Huddersfield play Cardiff City.
After the match they both approached Bill Shankly and asked him if he would like to manage Liverpool FC.
Shankly was inclined to take the job but was hesitant as Phil Taylor was still at the helm.
A few weeks later after Taylor's resignation, (pushed?), Bill Shankly signed the dotted line and a new era
began at Liverpool, an era that really needs no illustration.
That day was 1st December 1959.

Bill Shankly was 46 years old at the time, he was a cocky Scotsman from Glenbuck who spoke his mind,
and could be accused as arrogant by his rivals. But he had a big heart, and he certainly knew how to inspire people.

Here are the league positions in the years preceeding Bill's appointment, compared to 50 years later.

                    Division 2                               Premier League

1954-55           11th                    2004-05         5th
1955-56            3rd                     2005-06        3rd
1956-57            3rd                     2006-07        3rd
1957-58            4th                     2007-08        4th         

I dont need to point out how the last 3 seasons' placings mirror each other.
Liverpool were desparate to get back into the 1st Division, but you've got to admit, looking at past league finishes, they weren't that far
away were they? In those days the top 2 teams got promoted, so they only just missed out for 2 seasons.

Now I guess this is were an analogy gets a bit murky, other factors come into the equation.

In 1955-58, we got to the 5th round twice and 6th round in the FA Cup.
50 years later we've obviously got the Champs League and FA Cup to boast as well as a Champs League Final and semi final.
There is obviously no comparison in the Cups. Rafa has done a great job there, there's no doubt.

However, today Liverpool is desparate to win the Premier League, the mancs are breathing down our necks - worse in fact
theyve got us in a headlock. 1-5 with the bookies to win it.
However, looking at recent league finishes, we don't seem that far away do we? Mind you we are further away to our "goal"
than 50 years ago.
Again, however, the analogy gets murky here. The modern game is different, money seems to play a huge factor and has resulted
in the 4 richest clubs occupying the top 4 places ( bar the odd anomaly) over recent years. Even within this "big 4" it's ben the 2 big
spenders who have shared the spoils.

Liverpool fans this season see their club in 2nd place, but potentially 5 points behind Man U if they win their game in hand at home
to Fulham (I guess the bookies odds will then shorten even further from 1/5). And I must say I have seen my own faith in the manager
fluctuate yet again and waver to the dark side of doubt.
I must admit, Im not a black or white kind of person when it comes to judging people or situations. For me black and white are small
margins that sit at opposite sides of a greying spectrum. I tend to sit in this greying spectrum on most things, and when it comes to whether you think
Rafa can EVER win the title let's just say - Im sitting in a slightly charcoaly part of my spectrum.

I think the pro's and cons of Rafa's reign have been done to death, they have haven't they? And Im not going to go into them.
Some people have proclaimed their stance on Rafa too, most safely sit in the white part which is fine. Others under a barrage of anger
sit in the black part, which again is fine.
What gets my back up is the vitriol from the people in the white margin, to save my breath I'll quote JBG from his "Indictment" thread.

"One thing I have noticed on RAWK and also from some posters here is that there's a perception that if you criticise the manager then somehow
you are a lesser supporter, as if sticking with a manager, through thick and thin somehow equates to having a higher moral fibre,
better character and greater football knowledge and intelligence.
Its not. Rafa has been here a while, the problems are deep rooted, many of our problems are of his own making through mistakes or neglect and he
won't solve them overnight."

Now, getting back to the analogy. The shabby owners we have at the monent got lambasted for "allegedly" tapping up Klinnsman.
What really scared me was that name, Klinnsman. Feckin scary. I would be suicidal if he became manager. Anyway, this thing about talking to another
manager, "It's not the Liverpool Way" were the shouts. Well, didn't Tom Williams and Harry Latham do the same thing in 1959? I do believe there
is a "Liverpool Way", but we interpret it each in our own way. For me, growing up in the late 70's and 80's the Liverpool way was - no trash talking
in the Press by the manager, keep any boardroom strife in-house, win trophies, be dominant at home, sing yer heart out, and last but in no way least,
NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE CLUB.

My opinion on Rafa last season was that he didn't have it in him to win the league. I thought that about the same time JBG started his "Indictment"
thread. But I didn't post in it (check if you want) as I wasn't sure exactly what grey part of the spectrum I was.
Everyone's opinions can fluctuate, and when we were doing great this season I was wiping clean my slate on Rafa. However it didn't last long.
Maybe Im posting this too early, but feck it, it's all about opinions so here's mine.

Im gonna draw my line in the sand. If we finish more than 6 points behind Man U (Im aware factors like the Title having been won early etc may
distort this gap, but whatever) then that's it for me - I will move over to the dark side, and I will be in that black end of the greying spectrum.
Parry (well, he did get Rafa before you slate me) will have to do what Tom Williams and Harry Latham did 50 years ago and have a word. Better still,
get somone who wont be spotted by the press so it will go unnoticed. This does not make me a Rafa out man now, OK?
People will argue - what about the players that will leave? - well feck them, they should be playing for the club not Rafa. Or they will argue -
OK, so who the feck do we get in? - well, my answer is in my final analogy. Mirroring my description of Shankly above:

There is a man who is 46 years old,, he is cocky and speaks his mind, and can be accused as arrogant by his rivals.
But he has a big heart, and he certainly knows how to inspire people.
His name is Jose Mourinho.

----------------------------------------********************------------------------------






Now, I would appreciate it if you just posted your football opinions in here. No aggro, keep a lid on it and discuss for god's sake.

[GYBS]

I think the difference is the owners back then knew about the game and approached a football man as opposed to dumb and dumber approaching someone whose profile was high in the states due to the fact he lived there so he was always in the public eye . Klinnsman only managed germany for a couple of years and didnt really uproot any trees in the World Cup where they didnt even have to qualify . During the time he was German Manager he spent most of his time living in the states hence why he wa son the two muppets radar.

[Effes]

I think the difference is the owners back then knew about the game and approached a football man as opposed to dumb and dumber approaching someone whose profile was high in the states due to the fact he lived there so he was always in the public eye . Klinnsman only managed germany for a couple of years and didnt really uproot any trees in the World Cup where they didnt even have to qualify . During the time he was German Manager he spent most of his time living in the states hence why he wa son the two muppets radar.

Well that's the scary thing GYBS - the people at the helm in the club.

[GYBS]

Exactly Effes which is why it would be bloody scarey if rafa did leave and the manager these two muppets brought in to replace him ? At the moment Maureen is on 7 mil a year at Inter ?!? do you think we would pay that ?

[bigmick]

What a fantastic post that thread starter is, and an unbelieveable string of coincidences which you have pointed to mate in the pre-Shankly era to now. Absolutely uncanny that.

I wouldn't if I were you Eff worry too much about your fluctuating opinion, every siongle person on the forum is going through it constantly. Some are more honest about it than others, but we all do it sometimes. I've seen die hard Rafa fans post up "Ah FFS wheat's he done this time, this is fecking out of order" which is a natural reaction of any fan when they see somethign they can't fathom. I've no bother with them swinging back in behind the manager afterwards, although I must confess I do find it a bit ironic and hypocritical when they then go on to criticise people who are experiencing the self same emotion.

I think your "line in the sand" is a brave call too, but I wouldn't be for sticking to it too religiously if I was you. If you still believe the manager can win us the title even though at the ned of the season we are 7 points back, then just say so mate. I think for many people it simply depends on the "manner" of our run in. Just like for some people the "rant" and the press conferences, the team selections, the substitutions, the Keane debacle etc etc have galvanised their opinion, it'll be the way we go about it from here on in rather than our actual achievement.

I started off the season thinking that if we challenged, that'd be enough. Now we've challenged though, for me it isn't. Hypoctritcal? Course it is, knee jerky? absolutely. W@nky? Well yes even that if it makes em feel better. The thing is though, it's THE WAY we've carried on once we've got into a position to challenge which has convinced me. It's THE WAY we have spunked a potentially dominant position, the manner in which we've allowed ourselves to become distracted which has absolutely shocked me. It has made me convinced more than ever that the manager hasn't got what it takes. You want at worst for your manager to have a neutral effect in terms of the mind games, the personality improving the teams collective processes. At worst, no effect. At best of course, you want a Ferguson who gets under the skin of his rivals, or a Mourinho who can rile them up, make them lose focus. What you don't want, is someone who actually costs you standing, is detremental to your chances. That IMHO is what we've got.

I don't know if anyones noticed but since Man Utd hit the top, the cat has got Fergusons tongue. Never seen sight nor sound of him. He doesn't need to open his mouth anymore, because Rafa's frothing at his. Job done, one little word about Liverpool and that was it, we absolutely lost the plot. If it gets close again, expect a wee nudge from whisky nose then. If not, the next time you hear him he'll be talking about next season and how he doesn't expect us to be up there again.

That is if rafa stays as Manager. I hear your opinion on who else might do a decent job Eff. If he was here, Fergie wouldn't be dismissing us quite so readily then I don't think.

[Effes]

Yea Mick, the "more than 6 points" thing is sticking my neck out a bit. And I certainly wont be sticking my reputation on it.
It's more for the debate - my line in the sand (which I did say can be distorted due to a number of factors).
The call on Jose will stick in a lot of people's throats, and may not even be realistic. But it was answering my own
anticipated question of "OK, so who do we get in?".

Just stating how my opinion fluctuates, and was curious as to other people's opinions - now and where it'll
be come the end of the season.
Maybe it's asking for people's views prematurely and they will not want to be goaded into one. But let's face
it, they wont get shot will they?

[bigmick]

Shanks was a great man, and over time people throughout football came to love him, but I'll bet me life on it that for a long time opposing fans thought he was an arrogant c... Over time you get to read the quotes and you realise that the vast majority of it was funny, soundbite gold. Football isn't really "much more important" than life and death, but it's a great line.

I think similar things of other managers quotes, what was Houlliers one about I and team in the dictionary. My point being, such tings as Mourinho's "Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" at Wembley was probably funny as feck if you were a Walsall supporter or something. In many ways, it could be taken as a side compliment "I know your fecking loud, but shut the feck up we've equalised". His sprint down the line at Old Trafford when Porto scored to put the Mancs out of Europe probably wound them the feck up as well, but i thought that one was brilliant. Funny that.

[SupitsJonF]

Mourinho said he was going back to Chelsea before he retires.  Doubt he will go to Liverpool if he still wants a job there.

[Effes]

I think maybe people are just seeing the Mourinho proposition and focussing on that.

I was hoping to invoke a more "Where do you draw the line" thing. Or how your views on
Rafa may have fluctuated over time. Anyways....

[SupitsJonF]

3rd is no good, unless 3rd is 2 points off the leaders and second is one.  Even if we get a CL semi-final run and fourth I don't think that is good enough, and we need a new manager.

However, if we can't get a proper replacement, then I would keep.  Reina will most likely leave if Rafa goes (his dad is pressuring him) and probably Arbeloa too.  I'd want a man with experience to get viable replacements instantly so we can keep competing right away.

[bigmick]

If you're gonna draw a line anywhere, the sand is as good a place as any. My line is that we should get a new manager, unless the one we've already got gives us absolutely no choice but to give him a new contract with hs stunningly successful season. We shouldn't overly concern ourselves with "but who would you replace him with". There will be lots of interest in the post, and lots of excellent managers who people on this board have never heard of.

[GYBS]

The prob is mate most of the excellent managers around people have heard of and will have an opinion on .

[Sabre]

That was a long post, and a good one, and I appreciate the part in which you talk abot an era of Liverpool I don't know that much 1955.

I also find very interesting this bit

"It's not the Liverpool Way" were the shouts. Well, didn't Tom Williams and Harry Latham do the same thing in 1959? I do believe there
is a "Liverpool Way", but we interpret it each in our own way. For me, growing up in the late 70's and 80's the Liverpool way was - no trash talking

I would love to read a lot of red's opinions about how they interpret "Liverpool way", and I'd love to hear opinions from very different age ranges.

Sometimes I wish we had someone really old (older than supersub) who could talk about those days as a supporter.

About the part of what to do now, it's your opinion, you don't slate other opinions there, so that's ok, but that bit is being discussed elsewhere to dead, so I won't post about it.

Of course you're the starter of the thread, and you decide how to want this debate is introduced, but it would be a pity that the discussion from now on focused ONLY on your last bit of your good post, as it touches some debates that haven't been done as of late here.

[Effes]

I also find very interesting this bit

"It's not the Liverpool Way" were the shouts. Well, didn't Tom Williams and Harry Latham do the same thing in 1959? I do believe there
is a "Liverpool Way", but we interpret it each in our own way. For me, growing up in the late 70's and 80's the Liverpool way was - no trash talking

I would love to read a lot of red's opinions about how they interpret "Liverpool way", and I'd love to hear opinions from very different age ranges.

It's a good point of discussion sabre, and I have no qualms if it gets discussed here. I suppose I missed "pass and move" and "support the manager" which could be included.

The "support the manager" bit may make me look like a hypocrite. But my interpretation is that this means at the ground,
anywhere else where the manager will not know, is harmless in my opinion.

[Sir Roger]

Mourinho said he was going back to Chelsea before he retires.  Doubt he will go to Liverpool if he still wants a job there.

I didn't like mourhino
Too arrogant
Too cocky
Too vain
But now...