Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

But our objective is not to finish above arsenal, it's to win trophies.

Sometimes reading posts on these boards you do wonder what some people think our aims are.

I was looking at the Arsenal team from last night, thinking what would we do to have Arshavin, Eduardo and Van Persie with Bendtner as back-up. While Arsenal might not have won any more trophies than us in the last three seasons, their progress in each is way better bar in Europe (same if you go back four years in that competition)

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

Arsenal : SF (08/09), QF (07/08), L16 (06/07)
Liverpool : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)

FA CUP

Arsenal : SF (08/09), R5 (07/08), R5 (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), R5 (07/08), R3 (06/07)

LEAGUE CUP

Arsenal : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), QF (07/08), QF (06/07)

It's 1-1 on finals, 3-1 to Arsenal on semis and 3-2 to Liverpool on QFs. If you go back four seasons in the CL then Arsenal would have runners-up to our L16 exit at the hands of Benfica, so despite our spending we've achieved no more CL success than Arsenal

The mere fact we're even comparing ourselves with Arsenal and not Chelsea and Man Utd says it all, especially since we're a financial big spender by comparison with them. Despite the everpresent nature of "fergie's achievements", few mention how quickly Wenger won the double into his reign in a more comparable era and against the financial power of the mancs. We can only wonder if the new stadium will ever happen, and if we will have a farcical sponsor come name like Newcastle!

[milou]

But our objective is not to finish above arsenal, it's to win trophies.

Sometimes reading posts on these boards you do wonder what some people think our aims are.

I was looking at the Arsenal team from last night, thinking what would we do to have Arshavin, Eduardo and Van Persie with Bendtner as back-up. While Arsenal might not have won any more trophies than us in the last three seasons, their progress in each is way better bar in Europe (same if you go back four years in that competition)

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

Arsenal : SF (08/09), QF (07/08), L16 (06/07)
Liverpool : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)

FA CUP

Arsenal : SF (08/09), R5 (07/08), R5 (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), R5 (07/08), R3 (06/07)

LEAGUE CUP

Arsenal : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), QF (07/08), QF (06/07)

It's 1-1 on finals, 3-1 to Arsenal on semis and 3-2 to Liverpool on QFs. If you go back four seasons in the CL then Arsenal would have runners-up to our L16 exit at the hands of Benfica, so despite our spending we've achieved no more CL success than Arsenal

The mere fact we're even comparing ourselves with Arsenal and not Chelsea and Man Utd says it all, especially since we're a financial big spender by comparison with them. Despite the everpresent nature of "fergie's achievements", few mention how quickly Wenger won the double into his reign in a more comparable era and against the financial power of the mancs. We can only wonder if the new stadium will ever happen, and if we will have a farcical sponsor come name like Newcastle!

I think from what I have been reading, we can all agree (no doubt some to a certain more degree than others) that money DOES matter and we could certainly do with a bit more than what the yanks are willing to part with.

I can also safely say that we all agree that wenger is a genius in the transfer market, grooming virtual unknowns into superstars and often selling them at with huge profit.

But not everyone is Wenger.. and as successful as he is in racking in big money for selling their best players at their peak, I think his recent lack of success is down mostly to this habit of his as well as his unwillingness to buy established & expensive players. Don't forget the Gunners fans were calling for his head last year too when the results didn't go their way.

So since 2005, we cannot say Wenger is more successful than rafa in terms of trophies won. There are only TWO teams more successful than us in the past 5 years - man utd and chelsea.. and both are undeniably richer and more powerful than us. Just look at their bench and their treatment table.. or even some of the flops they can afford without really hurting their strength.

I know it sounds simplistic to blame it on money.. but money rules. It has been and will always be. In football and in life. Just wait and see what Man City can do.

Does anyone seriously think rafa wouldn't want to keep crouch, bellamy & torres all in the same team if he could? They were ALL bought by him - this cold-blooded emotionless calculative beast!

Unfortunately, I think we just couldn't afford to keep them (and a long list of others) when we need to sell before we can buy.

[Emerald Red]

But our objective is not to finish above arsenal, it's to win trophies.

Sometimes reading posts on these boards you do wonder what some people think our aims are.

Our current aim should be this:

stopping the rott; getting rid of the two d*ckheads that own us. In the present time, these things are priority. Think about the manager later.

[lakes10]

Where is our squad depth?

sold!!! end of thread

It is certainly not end of thread.. not for me.

why sell bellamy & crouch after carefully selecting them before buying them?

do u think a tactical guru like rafa doesn't know voronin, babel and n'gog are nowhere near being good enough?

Or you think there is an underlying problem to have to sell before buying?

Do u really think he could have kept bellamy, crouch and torres in the same team given our financial situation?

I again disclaim i am NOT defending him but wanna discuss the truth behind all these "irrational" buying & selling one year after another. Is there no logic in rafa's thinking?

dont get me started mate, in my view Rafa has only ever taken players to out club that he feels can play in the CL. his buying has been very poor.

if he is told that we have a good player but he thinks they are not he will sell them.

Rafa has never been the man to win the prem for Liverpool and never will be, he built a good team the other year and and when they did not win the CL he started selling them off.

has nothing to do with money, he has taken 67 players to this club and for us not to have any back player that cut it is shocking and in my view he has just shown how worong he has got things.

if you wish to win the CL in the next few years then yes keep him, but if you wish to see us win the prem in the next 4 years he must go. and go now so we can get a manager in that can take a good look at the team and have the ime to work out who to keepo and who to sell so next year is not a write off aswell.

Unfortunately lakes your understanding of the game is weak. Rafa and the team almost made a miracle happen last year. Liverpool challenging for the league with 1/4 of Fergies, Wengers and Abramovich's money.

It is criminal that it almost succeeded.

The difference between Liverpool and Man U is equal to the difference between Liverpool and Birminghan. You don't see Birmingham dominating Liverpool do you. Still you expect us to dominate Man United?

If we follow your path it will mean a permanent destruction of this club and we may never return to the top.

and you live in a dream world where Rafa gets nothing wrong.

[killerp]

Yes money talks but no if you do not know how to use that money!

Examples of how not to spend your transfer kitty:

Do not buy injured players & say they will be good in the future & by the time they are fit you have already lost all competitions.

Do not buy players that do not fit your system (if you have a system Rafa)

Do not buy players that fit other teams systems & be angry when then don't work out in yours & sell that player/s at a loss.

Don't get sucked into bidding for the same targets as all the other bloody top clubs & discover you paid over the top for money whores who will jump ship at first opportunity.

and the list goes on & on.....

[Emerald Red]

Yes money talks but no if you do not know how to use that money!

Examples of how not to spend your transfer kitty:

Do not buy injured players & say they will be good in the future & by the time they are fit you have already lost all competitions.

Do not buy players that do not fit your system (if you have a system Rafa)

Do not buy players that fit other teams systems & be angry when then don't work out in yours & sell that player/s at a loss.

Don't get sucked into bidding for the same targets as all the other bloody top clubs & discover you paid over the top for money whores who will jump ship at first opportunity.

and the list goes on & on.....

Fuck off! You smell like fish.

[Owzat]

Where is our squad depth? Have you looked down the back of the sofa?

[Festy]

We have no fucking depth, nothing..we are screwed this season.. Stoke has better squad depth than us and we are looking like Bolton the way we are playing.

[kazza]

Everyone keeps talking about what we spent, but no one is talking about what you need to spend to keep them. If we can afford 70k a week for each player on our bench, it would look a lot better than what it does. Crouch wanted first team football but would he have stayed had we offered him 100k per week to be a sub? The point is contiuously ignored but we have the sixth highest payroll in the league, and players come because of their salary not thier transfer cost.

[Benny The Noon]

But our objective is not to finish above arsenal, it's to win trophies.

Sometimes reading posts on these boards you do wonder what some people think our aims are.

I was looking at the Arsenal team from last night, thinking what would we do to have Arshavin, Eduardo and Van Persie with Bendtner as back-up. While Arsenal might not have won any more trophies than us in the last three seasons, their progress in each is way better bar in Europe (same if you go back four years in that competition)

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

Arsenal : SF (08/09), QF (07/08), L16 (06/07)
Liverpool : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)

FA CUP

Arsenal : SF (08/09), R5 (07/08), R5 (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), R5 (07/08), R3 (06/07)

LEAGUE CUP

Arsenal : QF (08/09), SF (07/08), RU (06/07)
Liverpool : R4 (08/09), QF (07/08), QF (06/07)

It's 1-1 on finals, 3-1 to Arsenal on semis and 3-2 to Liverpool on QFs. If you go back four seasons in the CL then Arsenal would have runners-up to our L16 exit at the hands of Benfica, so despite our spending we've achieved no more CL success than Arsenal

The mere fact we're even comparing ourselves with Arsenal and not Chelsea and Man Utd says it all, especially since we're a financial big spender by comparison with them. Despite the everpresent nature of "fergie's achievements", few mention how quickly Wenger won the double into his reign in a more comparable era and against the financial power of the mancs. We can only wonder if the new stadium will ever happen, and if we will have a farcical sponsor come name like Newcastle!

Isnt that factually incorrect as we have won the thing and they havent 

You show the stats for the CL and the cups but what about the league ?

[Owzat]

While Arsenal might not have won any more trophies than us in the last three seasons, their progress in each is way better bar in Europe (same if you go back four years in that competition)

Isnt that factually incorrect as we have won the thing and they havent 

Only if because you either didn't read what I put or didn't understand. I could stretch it back five seasons so we've got a Champions League win, but that wasn't the point, much as I didn't stretch it back six seasons so Arsenal had a league title (unbeaten)

You show the stats for the CL and the cups but what about the league ?

To the best of my knowledge neither side has won the Premiership in the last three seasons either 

[Benny The Noon]

so basically manipulating the stats to suit best then . Why not go back 5 years thats how long rafa has been with us ? Why not bring up the league as a measure of progress between the two team - over the years rafa has been at the club he has been more successful than wenger and arsenal - that is a fact and no manipulation of stats can mask that fact .

[milou]

Everyone keeps talking about what we spent, but no one is talking about what you need to spend to keep them. If we can afford 70k a week for each player on our bench, it would look a lot better than what it does. Crouch wanted first team football but would he have stayed had we offered him 100k per week to be a sub? The point is contiuously ignored but we have the sixth highest payroll in the league, and players come because of their salary not thier transfer cost.

spot on there!

i bet alonso would have stayed too if we offered him more.. i am THAT convinced. as much as he has been a top lad when he was with us, don't tell me higher pay and lower tax in spain weren't huge factors in his consideration. isn't masherano sulking now too bcos of "low" pay?

there is ALWAYS a price to almost anything. we all know it is true even if we don't want to admit it.

anybody who thinks money is not a major (not the only one - i stress again) problem is seriously missing the point.

the same reason why birmingham or everton :d would NEVER win premiership.. but man city just might!

[sgs]

In the end it comes down to wages. How much can u pay?

The top teams need a large squad, which also means you face the challenge of keeping everyone happy. How?

1. By rotation; and
2. Wages

Three quick examples:

If we had the resources, we certainly would've kept Crouch by hiking his salary; ditto for Sissoko and Sami; maybe even Alonso...

Wages are often the deciding factor...

[sgs]

Signing a player is always a risk cus u never know how they will turn out. But IMO, and with the ample benefit of hindsight, the major errors Rafa has made in the transfer market have been two-fold:

1. relates more to the academy than anything else. He should've fought for total revamp of the academy system from the very beginning. Young players are the life blood of any team, and what sustains u over the long term. The top transfers are simply icing on the cake.

2. The decision to spread a limited budget over several 2nd & 3rd choices, rather than build slowly over a long period, with modest trophy targets.

In effect, the mistakes have been far more strategic than peeps are willing to think of or concede. Yes there have been the odd mistakes, like Dossena, Pennant, etc but these pale in comparison to what has been more strategic than individual errors.