Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

No offence taken. I am a girl I was not gonna say because of my experiences in other Liverpool chatrooms but this ones brilliant. I changed my mind cos I felt quite safe here and I do have a sense of humour ya know. Now back to my reply El Hadj Diof did not play in the later stages of the world cup did he by my reckoning as Senegal got knocked out at the group stage as I consider the Quarters and the Semi-s to be the later stages of the world cup. He does not count. If you have ever had to try out for a decent team (whether it is football or hockey) you will know that sometimes one chance is all you get (darren bent for England) So the fact I have seen him play three times and he did not impress me is enough for me.
as to Experience
I am not saying we should get Larsson or Inzagi just players like Larsson or Inzagi with experience. Look at what happened when we brought in Macallister and Litmanen we had a very good season. I think Rafa might have been thinking along the same lines when he brought in Robbie Fowler except Robbie was on a downard spiral in his career and I am not sure whether Rafa will be able to  motivate him sufficiently.

At Barcelona they have 3 or 4 big name players apart from Ronaldinho like Deco, Samuel Eto'o, Ludovic Giuly we can't rely on Stevie G all the time its a lot of pressure for one person he could either burn out or what happens when he gets injured and as for Alonso and Garcia as big game players France 3 Spain 1 the more memorable players in that game were Torres and Joaquin (the latter who I incidentally think Rafa should consider although those big shorts need to go) and finally on local talent I do expect a championship winning team of local talent to go on and dominate the premiership and win the the champions league if Man Utd can do it and (Barcelona always seem to have 3 or4 local boys in thier squads who play regularly and they have been known to sack coaches who don't take this into consideration) why can't we. The truth is the more you play in the premiership the more you improve and gain experience. I can't believe that in the whole youth academy there is'nt one player who is not ready or good enough to don a Liverpool shirt and play in the premiership week in week out.

Switch to decaf 

so how u doin 

I was waiting for that. 

[Judge]

Raiden warr is an anagram of Arid warren (so she's a lonely girl then)

[Raiden Warr]

I'm doin fine thanx, actually that was me on tea you don't hear me on coffee:p

[Raiden Warr]

sorry i meant to say you don't want to see or hear me after a coffee:p

[48-1119859832]

At Barcelona they have 3 or 4 big name players apart from Ronaldinho like Deco, Samuel Eto'o, Ludovic Giuly we can't rely on Stevie G all the time its a lot of pressure for one person he could either burn out or what happens when he gets injured and as for Alonso and Garcia as big game players France 3 Spain 1 the more memorable players in that game were Torres and Joaquin (the latter who I incidentally think Rafa should consider although those big shorts need to go) and finally on local talent I do expect a championship winning team of local talent to go on and dominate the premiership and win the the champions league if Man Utd can do it and (Barcelona always seem to have 3 or4 local boys in thier squads who play regularly and they have been known to sack coaches who don't take this into consideration) why can't we. The truth is the more you play in the premiership the more you improve and gain experience. I can't believe that in the whole youth academy there is'nt one player who is not ready or good enough to don a Liverpool shirt and play in the premiership week in week out.

Steven Gerrard thrives on pressure, and no player makes him carry the team he chooses to do that by his own admission. He wants to be the leader, he wants to lead the side out week in week out, when we are behind like against West Ham he picks the team up, he doesn't allow the team to get complacent. As for him burning out and getting injured, Rafa is signing new players who bring more to the table in terms of ability and presence. Obviously Gerrard is the centre piece in Rafa's plan but someone has to be and why not make the best all-round player in the world to be the foundations you build upon? Personally I don't agree with building a team around a player but then Gerrard excels greatly at everything.

As for the Liverpool academy not producing talent it doesn't look like it has a player to step up to the plate, hence why Rafa and his coaching staff are scouting the world for talent.  Liverpool tend to produce one or two players good enough to earn a place week in week out for Liverpool once in a blue moon, it's shame Liverpool doesn't have an academy like West Ham who produce countless great talents every few years.

[Raiden Warr]

I hope I am proved wrong but I don't think the answer to Liverpool's problem in front of goal is a partnership between Dirk 'pretty boy' Kuyt and Peter 'Longshanks' Crouch. I say grab the most promising of the youth strikers from the academy stuff him into a Liverpool shirt and send him out to play...cometh the hour cometh the man.

[48-1119859832]

I hope I am proved wrong but I don't think the answer to Liverpool's problem in front of goal is a partnership between Dirk 'pretty boy' Kuyt and Peter 'Longshanks' Crouch. I say grab the most promising of the youth strikers from the academy stuff him into a Liverpool shirt and send him out to play...cometh the hour cometh the man.

So mean do a Sven and play a player like Theo Walcott when we have a great chance next season of winning the Premiership? 

[Raiden Warr]

Wayne Rooney, Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Pele all under 20 when they first started playing. Cesc Fabregas was actually at Barcelona as a member of the youth team. He left because he was not given a chance in the first team and now he plays for Arsenal and Spain whilst his mates are still languishing in the youth team at Barca.
anyway Walcott has not played in the premiership or in the world cup.

[Bad Bob]

No offence taken. I am a girl I was not gonna say because of my experiences in other Liverpool chatrooms but this ones brilliant. I changed my mind cos I felt quite safe here and I do have a sense of humour ya know. Now back to my reply El Hadj Diof did not play in the later stages of the world cup did he by my reckoning as Senegal got knocked out at the group stage as I consider the Quarters and the Semi-s to be the later stages of the world cup. He does not count. If you have ever had to try out for a decent team (whether it is football or hockey) you will know that sometimes one chance is all you get (darren bent for England) So the fact I have seen him play three times and he did not impress me is enough for me.
as to Experience
I am not saying we should get Larsson or Inzagi just players like Larsson or Inzagi with experience. Look at what happened when we brought in Macallister and Litmanen we had a very good season. I think Rafa might have been thinking along the same lines when he brought in Robbie Fowler except Robbie was on a downard spiral in his career and I am not sure whether Rafa will be able to  motivate him sufficiently.

At Barcelona they have 3 or 4 big name players apart from Ronaldinho like Deco, Samuel Eto'o, Ludovic Giuly we can't rely on Stevie G all the time its a lot of pressure for one person he could either burn out or what happens when he gets injured and as for Alonso and Garcia as big game players France 3 Spain 1 the more memorable players in that game were Torres and Joaquin (the latter who I incidentally think Rafa should consider although those big shorts need to go) and finally on local talent I do expect a championship winning team of local talent to go on and dominate the premiership and win the the champions league if Man Utd can do it and (Barcelona always seem to have 3 or4 local boys in thier squads who play regularly and they have been known to sack coaches who don't take this into consideration) why can't we. The truth is the more you play in the premiership the more you improve and gain experience. I can't believe that in the whole youth academy there is'nt one player who is not ready or good enough to don a Liverpool shirt and play in the premiership week in week out.

First off, welcome to the forum and happy posting! 

As you might imagine, I have some quibbles with your response:

1) Senegal, and Diouff, did make it to the Quarter-finals in 2002 but that's not the point.  The point is that judging players purely on how they perform in a tournament like the World Cup or the European Championships is very risky.  Average players can hit a rich vein of form in these short tournaments and look like world beaters.  Forget Diouff, what about Milan Baros at Euro 2004?  He looked like the best striker in the world for a month and we could have probably cashed in big time if we'd sold him straight after.  We didn't of course because we were all smacking our lips in anticipation of seeing him reproduce that form in a Liverpool shirt, especially as the main man following Owen's departure.  You know how that turned out--he was not good enough and Benitez rightly sent him packing.  Bottom line, some very average players can find some great form on a world stage but that does not mean that we should sign them.

2) One chance is all you get so watching a player 3 times at the WC is more than enough to assess their worth?  I'm sorry but that's bollox.  Based on that logic, very, very few England players would get a game at a top team in England (or any of the top teams in other European leagues).  Frank Lampard has been utterly rubbish, Beckham can't keep his lunch down for 90 minutes, Carragher's looked distinctly average, John Terry's had some dodgy moments...even Gerrard--two nice goals aside--has had a quiet tournament.  If you were a scout seeing them for the first time at the World Cup you would be hard pressed recommending them to the likes of Aston Villa, let alone Liverpool.  Let's be clear, Kuyt did not have a great tournament but I, for one, am prepared to believe there's more to the lad's game than what he showed for an ultimately poor and disjointed Dutch side in Germany...and that's without even mentioning that a good deal of his playing time was spent playing either wide right or wide left (well, okay, I suppose I just mentioned it ).

3) I think your point about experience is fair comment but experience, in and of itself, is not enough.  Pellegrino had experience by the barge-full but was utter pants for Liverpool.  If we're going to go for experience let's be sure that the player: (a) can still play a bit and (b) still has the hunger to help a top side compete for honours (i.e. is not just there for a last fat paycheque). 

4) In this regard, I find your comments about Robbie baffling.  On a downward spiral?  Erm, well maybe at City but certainly not since he's been back in red.  He's been rejuvenated at Liverppol, is getting back to full fitness and has really banged in some critical goals this past season.  Indeed, were it not for some of Robbie's match-winning strikes, we might not have finished ion 3rd (within a hair's width of second).  As for Rafa having difficulty motivating him this season, come on!  Robbie is back playing for his hometown club...the club he loves.  He will be plenty motivated, believe me!  Do not, for one minute, doubt that Robbie still has the ability and commitment to play for a top team like Liverpool! 

5) We most certainly do not rely on Stevie for all of our creativity and attacking thrust.  Players like Alonso, Garcia, Kewell, Robbie and even Crouchy bring a lot to our attack.  Moreover, knocking Alonso and Garcia for Spain's capitulation is wide of the mark, IMO.  Both worked their socks off for the team and were unfortunate to be on the losing end of the result.  For all of Torres' and Joaquin's movement, they didn't produce an end product either and, Joaquin especially, was wasteful when he had the ball in good areas.   Besides, surely you've seen enough of Alonso and Garcia in Liverpool shirts to know how vital they are to our attack?  Knocking them for one losing game is baffling to be honest.   My point is, with the players we have already, plus Bellamy and hopefully Gonzales, we have the nucleus of a fantastic creative, attacking side.  Adding another striker and/or winger to the mix is essential but we don't necessarily need a Deco, Et'o or Joaquin: on the right we need a player with pace who can beat a man, hug the touchline or cut infield, stretch defenses and whip in a good ball.  Up front, there are options: a clinical 'fox in the box' goal scorer would be fantastic but they cost a lot of money; perhaps a physical lad who can spot a pass, like Kuyt, would suit our style of play just fine.  We'll see who Rafa brings in but don't worry about a lack of creativity in the side--it's there.

6) Expecting Liverpool or any Premiership team to challenge for the league title and Champions League with a squad dominated by local talent is a fantasy, pure and simple.  Yes, Man U's academy produced some exceptional players that became the spine of their successful teams in the 90s but they also had the likes of Cantona, Schmeichel, Stamm etc in there side to help out a bit!  More to the point, though, that kind of academy-cultivated nucleus of talent simply does not come along everyday.  Don't you think that Liverpool are trying their hardest to locate young boys, including but not exclusively local Liverpool lads, who will become the next Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Fowler, etc?  Of course they are.  Rafa has revitalized the academy and reserve team after years of neglect by Houllier and he has scouts scouring the globe for promising young talent to bring to Melwood.  But, it's a cr.apshoot.  A kid that looks like an awesome talent at 12 might simply not be good enough at 19.  You just can't be sure and so pinning all of your senior team's hopes on who's coming through the academy at any given time is suicide--you have to go out and buy proven players who can walk right into the senior team.  As for 'cometh the hour cometh the man' that sounds great but it's naive.  You don't just hand a reserve team/youth team prospect the red shirt and, presto, they're good enough for the senior side.  Darren Potter, John Welsh, even Neil Mellor have illustrated that over the past two seasons.  I have no doubt that some of the current, talented crop of Liverpool youngsters will get a run out over the course of the next two seasons.  Whether any of them will eventually prove to be good enough to earn a consistent spot in the senior squad and help Liverpool challenge for top honours remains to be seen but I'm fairly convinced that not one of them is quite ready yet.

[48-1119859832]

Wayne Rooney, Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Pele all under 20 when they first started playing. Cesc Fabregas was actually at Barcelona as a member of the youth team. He left because he was not given a chance in the first team and now he plays for Arsenal and Spain whilst his mates are still languishing in the youth team at Barca.
anyway Walcott has not played in the premiership or in the world cup.

Owen, Fowler, Fabergas, Gary Neville and the likes were slowly bought into the team, they weren't thrown in the deep end. Asking a 17, 18 year old or perhaps 19 year old who doesn't have much or any experience to carry the expectations of a club like Liverpool is simply asking far too much. It would be better to sign a more experienced football albeit from home or abroad then slowly blood in the young talent from the youth academy.

[Bad Bob]

Wayne Rooney, Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Pele all under 20 when they first started playing. Cesc Fabregas was actually at Barcelona as a member of the youth team. He left because he was not given a chance in the first team and now he plays for Arsenal and Spain whilst his mates are still languishing in the youth team at Barca.
anyway Walcott has not played in the premiership or in the world cup.

Yes, but all of these teenaged players you've listed were brought into the senior side and got (get) games because they were (are) good enough, they didn't become good enough just because they were brought into the team.

Handing Darren Potter the red shirt did not make him the next David Beckham.  Why?  Because he is simply not as good as Beckham was at his age.

Bottom line: Rafa's a smart manager who is surrounded by smart coaches.  If one of the youth/reserve team stars is ready to step up and play with the big boys, he'll know it and make it happen.  If they're not, he won't. 

Rushing kids into the first team when they're not ready is not how to build a title-winning team.

[Raiden Warr]

I conceede your point about Senegal getting to the quarter finals. However the truth is many times, performance at Big tournaments is what increases the value of a player. Will Klose's or Schweinsteiger's value go up as a result of the way they have played in this tournament? definitely and managers do look at form at tournaments when buying players and so should we. As for Baros and Diof I do not think they were bad players I think Baros no longer fitted into the style Benitez wanted to play and Diof I thought was overpriced anyway. (I don't know the stats and I would have to check but I think Baros has scored more goals in his than Crouchie) Diof last time I checked was bought by Bolton and Allardyce is a shrewd manager.

[quote]
Darren Bent had how many chances? And speaking of the England team I think we need to keep things in perspective. It is erroneous to assume that England have an easy route to the final and this is reflected with Sven's tactics. Frank Lampard had a storming season the first time Chelsea won the premiership the same cannot be said of him this year he has been woeful and has continued to be woeful shooting when he does not need to and being generally selfish in this world cup. Personally I think Sven should drop him and play either Lennon or Carrick. It might motivate him. His poor play is just more noticeable because he is playing on a big stage and there is nowhere to hide.
I would not stay Stevie G has had a poor tournament.Actually he has done well in the circumstances. He has been playing as a defensive midfielder in this tournament. He has had to restrict his attacking instincts and movements to defend. When he plays for Liverpool he has Alonso, Sissoku or Hamman playing as defensive midfielders so he can go forward. Two goals from a Defensive Midfielder in the World Cup tournament is a very good achievement. Didier Deschamps was famously called a water carrier by Cantona his job was not to score. Albertini also played that role well he was not famous for scoring either. The fact that Stevie G is scoring as well only goes to show the calibre of the man. As for David Beckham if he only had one leg, one eye, one arm and half a kidney I would play him in the team as long as he is capable of taking free kicks. Real Madrid pay him big money and play him every week. More often in fact than Raul who has been known to warm the bench during the last season. The truth is that with the tactics,formation and personnel that Sven is playing, that is the only way England will score a goal. 4-5-1 is ultimately a defensive formation, packing the midfield soak up the pressure and nick a goal from a free kick or a penalty and you know what so far it has worked. As for John Terry and Carra how many goals have they conceeded in this world cup so far? Given a choice of Dirk Kuyt or Wayne Rooney who would you rather have playing for you? Why do I compare him with Rooney? because that's the standard of the competition. I do hope I am proved wrong and the boy Kuyt comes good but I have many doubts and  reservations. Apart from anything else the fact that he was not first choice starter for Holland should send alarm bells ringing. Robben, Van Nistleroy and Van Persie were preferred to him and neither Van Nistleroy or Van Persie start for thier respective clubs.

Pellegrino!!  

Neil Mellor... I'd like to know which Nit wit scouted him.

As for Torres and Joaquin I watch them play in the Spanish league for the past two seasons and they are very very good players. But then that is my humble opinion.

Maybe Benitez needs to find some new scouts... As for youth teams all I know is that other clubs have schools of excellence who produce good players and keep producing players. why can't we?  Next time you are in Barcelona take a tour of the Nou Camp and check out the competition

[Raiden Warr]

I still haven't figure how that quote thingy works

[Bad Bob]

I conceede your point about Senegal getting to the quarter finals. However the truth is many times, performance at Big tournaments is what increases the value of a player. Will Klose's or Schweinsteiger's value go up as a result of the way they have played in this tournament? definitely and managers do look at form at tournaments when buying players and so should we. As for Baros and Diof I do not think they were bad players I think Baros no longer fitted into the style Benitez wanted to play and Diof I thought was overpriced anyway. (I don't know the stats and I would have to check but I think Baros has scored more goals in his than Crouchie) Diof last time I checked was bought by Bolton and Allardyce is a shrewd manager.

Darren Bent had how many chances? And speaking of the England team I think we need to keep things in perspective. It is erroneous to assume that England have an easy route to the final and this is reflected with Sven's tactics. Frank Lampard had a storming season the first time Chelsea won the premiership the same cannot be said of him this year he has been woeful and has continued to be woeful shooting when he does not need to and being generally selfish in this world cup. Personally I think Sven should drop him and play either Lennon or Carrick. It might motivate him. His poor play is just more noticeable because he is playing on a big stage and there is nowhere to hide.
I would not stay Stevie G has had a poor tournament.Actually he has done well in the circumstances. He has been playing as a defensive midfielder in this tournament. He has had to restrict his attacking instincts and movements to defend. When he plays for Liverpool he has Alonso, Sissoku or Hamman playing as defensive midfielders so he can go forward. Two goals from a Defensive Midfielder in the World Cup tournament is a very good achievement. Didier Deschamps was famously called a water carrier by Cantona his job was not to score. Albertini also played that role well he was not famous for scoring either. The fact that Stevie G is scoring as well only goes to show the calibre of the man. As for David Beckham if he only had one leg, one eye, one arm and half a kidney I would play him in the team as long as he is capable of taking free kicks. Real Madrid pay him big money and play him every week. More often in fact than Raul who has been known to warm the bench during the last season. The truth is that with the tactics,formation and personnel that Sven is playing, that is the only way England will score a goal. 4-5-1 is ultimately a defensive formation, packing the midfield soak up the pressure and nick a goal from a free kick or a penalty and you know what so far it has worked. As for John Terry and Carra how many goals have they conceeded in this world cup so far? Given a choice of Dirk Kuyt or Wayne Rooney who would you rather have playing for you? Why do I compare him with Rooney? because that's the standard of the competition. I do hope I am proved wrong and the boy Kuyt comes good but I have many doubts and  reservations. Apart from anything else the fact that he was not first choice starter for Holland should send alarm bells ringing. Robben, Van Nistleroy and Van Persie were preferred to him and neither Van Nistleroy or Van Persie start for thier respective clubs.

Pellegrino!!  

Neil Mellor... I'd like to know which Nit wit scouted him.

As for Torres and Joaquin I watch them play in the Spanish league for the past two seasons and they are very very good players. But then that is my humble opinion.

Maybe Benitez needs to find some new scouts... As for youth teams all I know is that other clubs have schools of excellence who produce good players and keep producing players. why can't we?  Next time you are in Barcelona take a tour of the Nou Camp and check out the competition

I just can't resist... 

1) Undoubtedly a player who has a good tournament will see their transfer value go up but what people are willing to pay for a player is not always (and some might even argue not usually) reflective of the quality of the player.  We paid 14 million quid for one Djibril Cisse and he was and is not worth even half of that.  Shevchenko is an awesome striker but 30 million?  Chelsea are paying well over the odds there, just becase they can.  Do not make the mistake of equating transfer value with actual quality--the two diverge a fair amount, especially in the wake of big tournaments.

Having said that, you're right, managers do scout the big tournaments and Rafa will be no different.  Why wouldn't you, since many of the world's top players are on display?  However, no manager worth his salt (including Rafa) would stake their transfer kitty on 2-3 performances at the World Cup, no matter how good or bad they may be.

2) Your extensive arguments about the pros and cons of the England team have illustrated my point beautifully.  Clearly you have some previous knowledge of the English players' performances for their club sides as well as some insights into Sven's tactics, how he deploys particular players, etc.  As such, you can respond to a critique like "Lampard's rubbish" or "Becks is past it" with counterpoints gleaned from numerous observations down the years.  Well, don't you think someone who's seen Kuyt play in the Dutch league and knows how his club form compares to his World Cup performances would be able to do the same?  Hell, they might even be able to suggest why he looked so ordinary for Holland in much the same way that you are able to explain why Stevie's been a bit quiet in Germany (Dutch tactics? Played out of position? An uncharacteristic drop in form? etc).  Now, clearly, that 'someone' is not you because, by your own admission (your first post in this thread) you've only ever seen Kuyt play at this World Cup.  Well, I'm saying that, as a result, you simply do not have enough information to pass judgment on his abilities nor on his potential if signed by Liverpool.  Now, TBH, I've not seen Kuyt play before this World Cup either but I've faith that he's better than those three performances suggested (otherwise he wouldn't be a potential Liverpool transfer target) and maybe, just maybe, he's good enough for Liverpool.  We'll see.

3) Your comment about Kuyt not being a first-choice starter puzzles me.  You don't think the fact that he started against Portugal in the knock-out round (ahead of Van Nistleroy) qualifies him as a first-choice starter?  He also started and played the entire match against Argentina, while RVN was substituted part-way through the 2nd half.  Based on minutes played, you could well argue that Kuyt was preferred to Van Nistleroy by Van Basten in the big matches.  Now, I would suggest that there's more than a little politics involved in RVN's benching but to say that RVN, RVP and AR were "preferred" to Kuyt is simply wrong--and the minutes played statistics will prove it, if you care to look.

More daft, however, is your insinuation that Ruud Van Nistleroy doesn't even start for Man U.  He's had a falling out with Alex Ferguson, of course, which has led to his lack of selection.  But, don't kid yourself, it's a decision borne of a power struggle between two gargantuan egos rather than a decision prompted by Van Nistleroy's lack of form.  He's still good enough to start for most teams in the world and you know it.  Implying that Ruud Van Nistleroy is just some second-rate squad player (or Van Persie for that matter) who, nonetheless, was still "preferred" to Kuyt is simply absurd.

4) Comparing Dirk Kuyt to Wayne Rooney serves no purpose in this debate.  Rooney's clearly the superior player but there are very few Wayne Rooney-calibre players out there that are: (a) currently available and (b) affordable given our limited transfer kitty.  Some fans just want to brush this issue aside like it makes no difference: 'Liverpool hope to compete with the likes of Chelsea and Man U but just aren't willing to spend big on proven talent', they say, as if finances have no bearing whatsoever.  It's always presented as though we lack ambition by going after a Dirk Kuyt while our competition bags a Shevchenko.  Well, wake up folks!  We live in a world where resources are unevenly distributed and the playing field isn't level.  We don't have 20 million bob lying around to splash out on a marquee striker.  We need to sniff out the bargains and take our chances on the players that may show only a glimmer of promise now but who might come good if brought to a club like Liverpool.  Can you conclusively say that Kuyt will definitely not be the next Ruud Van Nistleroy?  If you can't, why not keep an open mind about him and see what develops?

5) Our youth system was largely neglected by Houllier and that's why we have very few current players that have recently graduated to the senior squad and are good enough to play week in, week out (Warnock, IMO, is just not quite at the necessary level to play for Liverpool).  But, the good news is that Rafa has devoted a lot of resources and money into revitalizing the academy and our scouting network.  We've signed a promising crop of youngsters who will hopefully one day provide a homegrown backbone for a senior side that can compete with any team in the world.  Have patience, Rafa's on the job and we'll start seeing the fruits of this largely behind-the-scenes labour soon enough!

[babu]

Bad Bob have you got a nice secretary that does your typing for you? if not you sure are one keen typist. Anyway good reading that.