Liverpool FC Forum

[taff]

The way I see it is Rafa wants to have fullbacks who support the attack especially against sides who defend deep against us.  With mash who is excellent in his role this gives the fullbacks a license to roam therefore giving the possibilities in attack.  A defence can organise against Torres and SG and even Keane as well but if we have fullbacks roaming then they have to keep an eye on the flanks, then space gets created for the attackers.

But to do this we need Mash and ideally pacy ball playing central defenders and this is where Agger was missed so much last season.  This is why I see Carra as a central defender as he gives insurance but against attacking teams I can see him given the occasional role as right back.  Riise and even Finnan dont really give that option and if Deggen is a bit ropey in defence then Mash and the central duo pick this up.  But rather than a draw which hampered us last season its worth that small gamble to push the fullbacks on.

I see the fullbacks and Keane as a response to dropped points against the lesser teams which seriously hampered us in the league.  Instead of being contained by teams the whole eleven have a responsibility to attack together so the ball to Torres is not the last resort, another reason why I think Crouch had served his time here as his strength was ball to him as the big guy, now the whole team will attack as an unit.

This then is the reason I am delighted that Alonso looks like staying.  Sure he needs to improve but teams who have swamped him will now have to keep an eye on the other options and if you give Alonso any time at all he dictates the game like no other player in the league, Mash being Mash and the fullbacks attacking can give us this situation.

The one thing I would have loved to have seen before anything else would have been a luxury left winger but it looks doubtful so Babel and Yossi can fullfill that role.  I can see SG going on the right or even in central midfiled on a rotational basis and Keane should then help in that situation.  People have suggested that Keane had poor assist stats last seaon well he didnt have Torres as a partner to start and now he will be helped by the team as a whole.

I think this is the Rafa style, the team defending and attacking as one

[Number 9]

I think the defensive line-up will be built upon Rafa's established "Pic' n Mix" tactics. Depending on the opposition we could well see Carra at RB for one match and back at CB for the next....... expect that to also apply to other departments within the team .

I agree but i really hope you are wrong!
There is no doubt Carra is the best central defender we have but i feel with Agger fit and Skrtel being a good player Rafa will be tempted to accomodate them both as well as Carra.That means only one thing Carra ar RB.
I would'nt have a problem with this IF Agger and Skrtel were solid together without Carra in there.The thing is though we dont know for sure if they will be.
But i reckon we are going to find out this season on way or another!
Fingers crossed!

[stmichael]

The way I see it is Rafa wants to have fullbacks who support the attack especially against sides who defend deep against us.  With mash who is excellent in his role this gives the fullbacks a license to roam therefore giving the possibilities in attack.  A defence can organise against Torres and SG and even Keane as well but if we have fullbacks roaming then they have to keep an eye on the flanks, then space gets created for the attackers.

But to do this we need Mash and ideally pacy ball playing central defenders and this is where Agger was missed so much last season.  This is why I see Carra as a central defender as he gives insurance but against attacking teams I can see him given the occasional role as right back.  Riise and even Finnan dont really give that option and if Deggen is a bit ropey in defence then Mash and the central duo pick this up.  But rather than a draw which hampered us last season its worth that small gamble to push the fullbacks on.

This then is the reason I am delighted that Alonso looks like staying.  Sure he needs to improve but teams who have swamped him will now have to keep an eye on the other options and if you give Alonso any time at all he dictates the game like no other player in the league, Mash being Mash and the fullbacks attacking can give us this situation.

I actually think Alonso plays deeper than Mascherano at times. I suspect this is under the orders of Benitez. Alonso likes to pick up the ball from defense and ping passes wide. It looks great and he's very effective at it, however I'm not sure this is the way we want to continue to play. Barry has shown for Villa and England that he'll get into the opposition box, unlike Alonso. A good example of this was England's last friendly where he scored against Trinidad.

I also think the way Benitez wants our side to play is more like the way his Valencia side played. Short, crisp, one/two touch pass and move football. Barry is a tidy player who'll do this, as he has good movement and is a good passer. Alonso is no doubt a good passer and his movement is underated. However I do think he goes for the long passes too much and it doesn't really play to our strengths at times. Barry will get the ball and play it to the feet of Gerrard, Keane, Babel and Torres. The movement will be good and the opposition will have more problems stopping us with quick, effective one/two touch football, with good movement. Rather than spreading the ball wide at any opportunity which Alonso does.

I think Alonso needs width to thrive. In his first season we had width with Nunez and Kewell and some of his passing was brilliant. But now we don't really play with wingers, we play with forwards who can drift wide when needed in Gerrard, Kuyt, Babel and Keane. This is why I think Barry's one / two, pass and move type passing might be more effective than long wide balls that Alonso craves.

[account deleted by request]

A good post that Taff. Where I see problems you see possibilities and options, which is what I really like to read. Deep down under all this pessimism, I am really positive about the season ahead.

[66-1112520797]

A good post that Taff. Where I see problems you see possibilities and options, which is what I really like to read. Deep down under all this pessimism, I am really positive about the season ahead.

Yeah pull the other one you pessimistic old g.it. 

By thr by that was a very good post from the Welsh Gorilla.

[GYBS]

Just reading through the posts and have to disagree on a few things -

1. back 4 - why change something that has given us one of the best defensive records during the last 4 seasons

Arbeloa at right back is more than decent enough both defending and going forward , carra should stay in the centre partnered along side agger with skittles and sami as back up . That leaves dossena and aurelio to fight out for the left back role .

2. Midfield - People mentioning 4-4-2 and putting gerrard and barry in the wider roles ? I. Barry is nowhere near a decent left mid - total lack of pace and creativity - he is a prem dm . Putting gerrard out right means we loose that drive from midfield from gerrard .

why change from the formation we ended the season with ? Gave us options and strength through the middle with gerrard,xabi and masher .It brought out the best in kuyt who turned out ot be a very very good right mid and will be a shoe in for that role this season .

the one problem we do have os the left side - babel cant play left mid yet did well when coming on as a sub - Maybe keane will fill that role this season . what i would really like to see is someon elike silva brought in

---------------------------pepe--------------------------

Arbeloa---------Carra--------------Agger----------Dossena

----------------Masher-------Xabi/Barry------------------

Kuyt-------------------Gerrard-----------------Keane/babel

-------------------- Torres---------------------------------

Subs from

Diego
Finnan/Darby
Sami/Skittles
Aurelio/Dossena
Lucas/Plessis/Barry?
Yossi/Pennant/Babel
Voronin/Ngog
Nemeth/Pacheco


It gives us good options to be able to switch around formation - good solid backbone and a bit of creativity .

[account deleted by request]

A good post that Taff. Where I see problems you see possibilities and options, which is what I really like to read. Deep down under all this pessimism, I am really positive about the season ahead.

Yeah pull the other one you pessimistic old g.it. 

[Salty Sock]

GYBS provides a deep slot for input, I like it.

[Igor Zidane]

A good post that Taff. Where I see problems you see possibilities and options, which is what I really like to read. Deep down under all this pessimism, I am really positive about the season ahead.

Stop it now saint , you'll get labelled happy clappy 

In all seriousness i think we all agree that richards and woodgate would improve oour defense , they'd improve anyones defense , it's just less of a priority at the moment imo. If we get £40 million in the january transfer window      then sign em up .

The defending from set pieces is worrying so far this pre-season ,but i'm hoping with pellagrino's influence (yes he was at lfc when he played, but in his prime he was an awsome defender) we will get it sorted before the start of the season.

If we play with two defensive central midfielders the two attacking fullbacks defensive qualities should be less of a problem ,err hopefully.

[66-1112520797]

Just reading through the posts and have to disagree on a few things -

1. back 4 - why change something that has given us one of the best defensive records during the last 4 seasons

Arbeloa at right back is more than decent enough both defending and going forward , carra should stay in the centre partnered along side agger with skittles and sami as back up . That leaves dossena and aurelio to fight out for the left back role .

2. Midfield - People mentioning 4-4-2 and putting gerrard and barry in the wider roles ? I. Barry is nowhere near a decent left mid - total lack of pace and creativity - he is a prem dm . Putting gerrard out right means we loose that drive from midfield from gerrard .

why change from the formation we ended the season with ? Gave us options and strength through the middle with gerrard,xabi and masher .It brought out the best in kuyt who turned out ot be a very very good right mid and will be a shoe in for that role this season .

the one problem we do have os the left side - babel cant play left mid yet did well when coming on as a sub - Maybe keane will fill that role this season . what i would really like to see is someon elike silva brought in

---------------------------pepe--------------------------

Arbeloa---------Carra--------------Agger----------Dossena

----------------Masher-------Xabi/Barry------------------

Kuyt-------------------Gerrard-----------------Keane/babel

-------------------- Torres---------------------------------

Subs from

Diego
Finnan/Darby
Sami/Skittles
Aurelio/Dossena
Lucas/Plessis/Barry?
Yossi/Pennant/Babel
Voronin/Ngog
Nemeth/Pacheco


It gives us good options to be able to switch around formation - good solid backbone and a bit of creativity .

I actually agree with most of that, but I dont really see Keane playing were you've selected him as ideal.

buying Keane throws a spanner in the works a little with the 4-3-3-1 formation. Maybe shifting gerrard out to the right of the trio. And playing Keane right behind Torres with Babel, Kuyt or Yossi on the left ... maybe.


I dont know.

[taff]

A good post that Taff. Where I see problems you see possibilities and options, which is what I really like to read. Deep down under all this pessimism, I am really positive about the season ahead.

Thank you Saint 

I Have just finished 43 years with the same bird and its an excellent read and the guy seems to have inside knowledge to an extent.  The gist of it was that if rafa had known exactly what state the club was in he probably would not have joined. I think he was expecting a big war chest but it didnt matrealise so he has had to plan and change gradually. Mistakes of course but progress definitely. 

To answer St Mike, good point about Barry but IMO he is not as good as Alonso. The crisp passing is not really a Benitez trademark.  The team operating as one unit and adjusting to the game is more his style, in fact Benitez copies AC Milan but tries to modernise it, his underlying philosophy is having players who are decision makers, hence the amount of potential captains we have in the squad and to have players who react if one style is not working so he is not afraid of the long ball game if it produces a win.

I think Rafas overall style is win the game then discuss the footballing beauty of the game afterwards

[GYBS]

Just reading through the posts and have to disagree on a few things -

1. back 4 - why change something that has given us one of the best defensive records during the last 4 seasons

Arbeloa at right back is more than decent enough both defending and going forward , carra should stay in the centre partnered along side agger with skittles and sami as back up . That leaves dossena and aurelio to fight out for the left back role .

2. Midfield - People mentioning 4-4-2 and putting gerrard and barry in the wider roles ? I. Barry is nowhere near a decent left mid - total lack of pace and creativity - he is a prem dm . Putting gerrard out right means we loose that drive from midfield from gerrard .

why change from the formation we ended the season with ? Gave us options and strength through the middle with gerrard,xabi and masher .It brought out the best in kuyt who turned out ot be a very very good right mid and will be a shoe in for that role this season .

the one problem we do have os the left side - babel cant play left mid yet did well when coming on as a sub - Maybe keane will fill that role this season . what i would really like to see is someon elike silva brought in

---------------------------pepe--------------------------

Arbeloa---------Carra--------------Agger----------Dossena

----------------Masher-------Xabi/Barry------------------

Kuyt-------------------Gerrard-----------------Keane/babel

-------------------- Torres---------------------------------

Subs from

Diego
Finnan/Darby
Sami/Skittles
Aurelio/Dossena
Lucas/Plessis/Barry?
Yossi/Pennant/Babel
Voronin/Ngog
Nemeth/Pacheco


It gives us good options to be able to switch around formation - good solid backbone and a bit of creativity .

I actually agree with most of that, but I dont really see Keane playing were you've selected him as ideal.

buying Keane throws a spanner in the works a little with the 4-3-3-1 formation. Maybe shifting gerrard out to the right of the trio. And playing Keane right behind Torres with Babel, Kuyt or Yossi on the left ... maybe.


I dont know.

yeah it can be more fluid with gerrard moving to the right and babel being brought in on the left with kuuyt going to the bench or keane and kuyt swapping round - one thing keane did a lot last yera for the spuds was patrolling that left side going forwrad and back . add in yossi it certainly gives us options going forward

[stmichael]

I can maybe see Rafa adopting a 3 at the back system on a few occasions this season...with Masch (or other) sitting in front of the back 3. This frees up one more midfielder and allows the full backs to become wing backs. Torres and Keane up top and rest battle it out in centre mid. Certainly, this would be an option away from home against mid to lower table sides.

[GYBS]

I can maybe see Rafa adopting a 3 at the back system on a few occasions this season...with Masch (or other) sitting in front of the back 3. This frees up one more midfielder and allows the full backs to become wing backs. Torres and Keane up top and rest battle it out in centre mid. Certainly, this would be an option away from home against mid to lower table sides.

Cant see us using 3 cbs then having masher drop ddper to cover full backs - most of the teams play with one guy up front these days so if you are playing 3cbs then you dont need masher to drop deep .

Play two cbs and have one dm drop deeper gives you plenty of cover against a lone striker.

[Effes]

Everyone kept insisting we didn't need another striker because we had Kuyt.

I'm not sure about that? If you could provide a link to the thread
I'm prepared to be sussed out on that.