Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

I think like St Michael, that reaching a final is a good indicator of how strong ends a certain team the season.

Saint brings another indicator, in form of points. Is that good enough to say we don't end strong the season? well there seems to be a relationship between how far we reach in Europe and the points we got in the second half, so not necessarily.

All in all, I think there are a lot of "myths", as in, phrases that are repeated constantly by the fans, and that they might not be necessarily true. So it's nice to review the myths from time to time like we are doing now. Another "myth" could be that Rafa is defensive, or that playing one striker is negative. Good discussion anyway.

[account deleted by request]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

[Leonmc0708]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

I mean that we have not played our 19th game, so assume we win that, then we score 41 points in the second half of the season.

But hten I re-counted and realised we had played 20 !!

[account deleted by request]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

I mean that we have not played our 19th game, so assume we win that, then we score 41 points in the second half of the season.

But hten I re-counted and realised we had played 20 !!

Not quite such a cunning plan then Leon?

[Leonmc0708]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

I mean that we have not played our 19th game, so assume we win that, then we score 41 points in the second half of the season.

But hten I re-counted and realised we had played 20 !!

Not quite such a cunning plan then Leon?

No, however dont let that mistake in adding up deflect the point I made earlier.

We DO finish strong in hte second half of the season - FACT.

[Leonmc0708]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

I mean that we have not played our 19th game, so assume we win that, then we score 41 points in the second half of the season.

But hten I re-counted and realised we had played 20 !!

Not quite such a cunning plan then Leon?

also, its still possible to attain the 41 points in the second half of the season as in 2005-2006 so add that to our 36 points at the half way stage and winning our game in hand and thats 80 points.

Again that will do nicely.

[account deleted by request]

Leon said

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

That would mean we have played 40 league games though mate 20+1+19= 40 we only usually get to play 38

I mean that we have not played our 19th game, so assume we win that, then we score 41 points in the second half of the season.

But hten I re-counted and realised we had played 20 !!

Not quite such a cunning plan then Leon?

No, however dont let that mistake in adding up deflect the point I made earlier.

We DO finish strong in hte second half of the season - FACT.

Not in the league....... FACT

also, its still possible to attain the 41 points in the second half of the season as in 2005-2006 so add that to our 36 points at the half way stage and winning our game in hand and thats 80 points.

Again that will do nicely.

No mate you are still not quite grasping it 19 games +1 +19 games = 39 games. Try not to worry about the game in hand as it confusing both of us 

ie 19 GAMES = 36 POINTS +19 GAMES 41 POINTS = 38GAMES 77 POINTS

[redtrader74]

IMHO the rotation and/or resting of players that Rafa advocates is done to keep the players fresh to play the way we do. Even in games where we play poorly we work very hard, the players are always closing down from the front, tracking back, and at every set piece everyone runs back into the box, and then on release, the forwards especially, all run 70-80 yds back up the pitch. Kuyt being the perfect example, he couldn't play 38 games like that even if he managed a goal every other game, Torres is another who for a forward works his nuts off. I think that the resting may not necessarily result in the 'leaping gazelles' rubbish, more that it is meant to allow the players to keep their fitness consistent throughout the season. Now i am not suggesting that other teams don't play with as much effort, but certain styles of football allow the ball to do more of the work, certain styles make the opposition chase shadows, our style asks a lot in terms of effort from our own players.

This is just my opinion and i'm sure that someones stats somewhere could prove me wrong, but i think that if we played 10 games with the same 11 each game and Arsenal 10 with their same 11 each game, our players would be more fatigued, hence the reason Rafa might be FORCED to rotate.

Tin hat time, but as i saId IMO, and fck u i actually go to some games

[account deleted by request]

IMHO the rotation and/or resting of players that Rafa advocates is done to keep the players fresh to play the way we do. Even in games where we play poorly we work very hard, the players are always closing down from the front, tracking back, and at every set piece everyone runs back into the box, and then on release, the forwards especially, all run 70-80 yds back up the pitch. Kuyt being the perfect example, he couldn't play 38 games like that even if he managed a goal every other game, Torres is another who for a forward works his nuts off. I think that the resting may not necessarily result in the 'leaping gazelles' rubbish, more that it is meant to allow the players to keep their fitness consistent throughout the season. Now i am not suggesting that other teams don't play with as much effort, but certain styles of football allow the ball to do more of the work, certain styles make the opposition chase shadows, our style asks a lot in terms of effort form our own players.

I would agree with that Redtrader, I always believed it also helped with our second half of the league season as well though ,I had hoped it might help us with this seasons points total    but it appears I and quite a lot more were wrong in that belief.

i.e. I thought the differences would be quite striking 36 points first half, 44 points or so second half

[Bad Bob]

IMHO the rotation and/or resting of players that Rafa advocates is done to keep the players fresh to play the way we do. Even in games where we play poorly we work very hard, the players are always closing down from the front, tracking back, and at every set piece everyone runs back into the box, and then on release, the forwards especially, all run 70-80 yds back up the pitch. Kuyt being the perfect example, he couldn't play 38 games like that even if he managed a goal every other game, Torres is another who for a forward works his nuts off. I think that the resting may not necessarily result in the 'leaping gazelles' rubbish, more that it is meant to allow the players to keep their fitness consistent throughout the season. Now i am not suggesting that other teams don't play with as much effort, but certain styles of football allow the ball to do more of the work, certain styles make the opposition chase shadows, our style asks a lot in terms of effort form our own players.

Good post, mate.  I think it's a plausible explanation for why Rafa rotates on the grounds of fitness.  I think it also explains why Kuyt gets a game so often despite offering next to no goal threat--his work rate suits Rafa's system.  When we do go shopping for a better second striker than Kuyt, then, I expect Rafa will be looking for someone that can at least approach that kind of workrate (if he's still in charge, that is) whilst also carrying a goal/assist threat.  What we are looking for, in other words, is a parallel to the Mascherano/Sissoko situation: a new recruit that almost matches the work rate of the fella he's replacing but who offers more to the team as a whole.

[Leonmc0708]

WHY DOES EVERY THREAD HAVE TO TURN INTO A ROTATION ONE ?

[redtrader74]

Unfortunatly finishing strong, or not, and rotation are inseperable.

[Leonmc0708]

Unfortunatly finishing strong, or not, and rotation are inseperable.

But United and Arsenal dont rotate and finish strong dont htey ?

Arrrgh fu.ck it.

[Toffeehater]

Lets throw the towel in now then hey ?

Why ?

Cus we dont play well in the second half of the season, rotation is no good, Rafa is a clown, Klinsmanns coming in, G&H are skint, Crouch is off, Kuyt is cr.ap, Voronin is awful, KEwell is a joke and all the other things people moan about.

well err if u feel that way mate

[Toffeehater]

A good guy I have worked for over a number of years taught me everything I know about man management, motivation, statistics and all those management things that I use today in work. I owe him a lot.

Two key things that he taught me about statisctics where:

1) Any fool hardy manager can read and quote stats, the manager's manager will disect and analyse them.

2) To look at the number is to scratch the surface, to find the hidden beauty of statistics you must find their origin.

If we just look at those figures for the league games, and dont accept or take into account the games in the Cup competitions then thats about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

We need to understand that the league was not the only competition we where in at that time, which is somewhat ironic given the fact that everyone on here is crying out for us to maintain our form through ALL competitions.

Lets look at the figures in more detail:

Season 2004-2005

Played 19, Points 28
Played 38, Points 58

First Half: 28 pts
Second Half: 30 pts

KEy things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the West Brom game, on Boxing Day 2004. Before this game we played 9 Cup games, winning 5, drawing 2 and losing 2. If we used a points system that would equal 17 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 11 games in the cup, losing 2 (Burnley and Chelsea CC final) winning 6 and drawing 3 (Juventus away, Chelsea away and AC in the final of the Champions LEague) if we used a points system that would equal 21 more points.

3) Strategic player resting due to European cup progress - because of the gap from the top of the league and the impending cup games, players where rested from "dead rubber games" like Palace (3 days before Chesea away) and Man City (in between both Juventus games). I am not saying this wont happen now, but it DID happen then and needs to be brough into the picture.

Had the Cup games been league ones, the figure would have been more like a six point gap from the first half of the season to the second.

------------------------------------------------------------

Season 2005-2006

Played 19, Points 41
Played 38, Points 82

First Half: 41 pts
Second Half: 41 pts

Key things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the Bolton home game, on the 2nd January 2006. Before this game we played 7 Cup games, winning 3, drawing 3 and losing 1. If we used a points system that would equal 12 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 8 games in the cup, losing 2 (Benfica home and away) winning 5 and drawing 1 (West Ham in the Final) if we used a points system that would equal 16 more points.

3) Actual form - we won 12 and drew one of our last 14 games, including nine out of our last nine games in 2005-2006. This could be crucial in the run in.

4) Final Total - we finished the season on a pretty respectable 82 points, our best since Rupert Murdoch invented football in 1992 and good enough to win said league 3 times (1998, 1999 and 2001) finish second in 2003 (1point behind winners), 2002 (4pts) and 2000 (9pts).

Had the Cup games been league ones, the figure would have been more of a four point gap from the first half of the season to the second.

------------------------------------------------------------

Season 2005-2006

Played 19, Points 34
Played 38, Points 68

First Half: 34 pts
Second Half: 34 pts

Key things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the Watford game, on the 23rd December 2006. Before this game we played 8 cup games, winning 6, drawing 1 and losing 1. If we used a points system that would equal 19 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 9 games in the cup, losing 5 (Arsenal both cups, Barca, Chalse and AC in the Europen Cup) winning 4 if we used a points system that would equal 12 more points.

3) Strategic player resting due to European cup progress - because of the gap from the top of the league and the impending cup games, players where rested from "dead rubber games" like Portsmouth and Fulham (in aroung the two legged Chelse Semi final games).

------------------------------------------------------------

These things must be considered.

Whilst I am not arguing this proves we will win the league, it does prove that as football team we play better in the second half of the season.

good post leon , for once u posted a decent post with no wise remarks , injuries , key games fatigue all play their part , like u have shown