Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

I'm quite happy. Morientes only has been placed below the level of Neil Mellor and Baros so far in this thread. I truly expected some Heskey defender  said he's better than Morientes too.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I'm quite happy. Morientes only has been placed below the level of Neil Mellor and Baros so far in this thread. I truly expected some Heskey defender  said he's better than Morientes too.

My view is that Morientes is class, but contrary to what people say, in football class will not replicate itself regardless of the league. I.E. Veron

I think the way Morientes glides along the pitch is beautiful, his movement is fantastic, his work rate is unquestionable, his ability with both feet is exceptional, his passing, vision and technique is wonderful and when the ball is crossed in he attacks it with great conviction. But sadly Morientes is a player who can only play beautiful football in a proper footballing side in a not so tough league. I said from the start that Morientes is a very good player, but he will never be able to replicate this in the English Premier League.

I have no doubt that if he were to go back to Spain, to a side whose footballing philosophy is movement and ball into feet, he would be successful once again. But he will never come good for Liverpool or in the Premiership.

[the_red_alonso]

Buy Ballack & play Gerrard as the striker.............
I know he will score 30 a season

[Redrider]

Morientes is a class act, just because he is not scoring goals does not mean he is not making a contribution.
Too many fan's take a superficial view of players ability and base their opinions only what is immediately obvious. Just as Crouch is demeaned for his appearance and lack of power heading !!

[RichardLFC1]

Buy Ballack & play Gerrard as the striker.............
I know he will score 30 a season

This cant be a serious could it.?

[Sabre]

My view is that Morientes is class, but contrary to what people say, in football class will not replicate itself regardless of the league. I.E. Veron

I think the way Morientes glides along the pitch is beautiful, his movement is fantastic, his work rate is unquestionable, his ability with both feet is exceptional, his passing, vision and technique is wonderful and when the ball is crossed in he attacks it with great conviction. But sadly Morientes is a player who can only play beautiful football in a proper footballing side in a not so tough league. I said from the start that Morientes is a very good player, but he will never be able to replicate this in the English Premier League.

I have no doubt that if he were to go back to Spain, to a side whose footballing philosophy is movement and ball into feet, he would be successful once again. But he will never come good for Liverpool or in the Premiership.

Well, I see what you mean. And I understand it. I admit the fact that there are players in the Spanish liga that would never adapt the EPL due to their lack of strength, attitude (diving), or both. Dani, the Betis forward would be one of those.

I also admit Morientes is under what we all expect from a striker of his reputation. But I disagree that he will never do it here.

IMHO, the English football is pacy, yes (so is Spanish one, you can bet that we play faster than in Norway), but is it there SUCH a difference between top leagues like the Spaniard, ENglish, Italian, or German one?

I honestly think there isn't. And the best proof is that when Chelsea - Barcelona, Real Madrid - Arsenal,  Sevilla - Middlesborough, Liverpool - Betis, or Espanyol -Schalke 04 play a game between them in UEFA and CL games, we see leveled matches, CoolHandLuke.

LFC is for me one of the top 3 english teams atm. And got a 0-0 in Anfield against a Betis  that hadn't real forwards that game? how's that possible if the pace is higher, the skill is higher, and the rythm of the game is higher? I think the reason is that the top level leagues are really matched in in their different features. The english one has a *slight* higher tempo than the Spaniard and Italian, The Spaniard has a *slight* better skill in their players. But to find HUGE differences in skill and tempo you must look to other leagues like the Danish, Norwegian, Portuguese or Russian leagues.

I don't think there are so much differences at this top level, to be honest, and that's why I admit Morientes isn't doing well, but I disagree he just doesn't adapt to a different football.

[akumaface]

To be honest, I rate Mellor as you can see, his awareness and shooting is quite good. He is slow I know but you can't argue he always got into good position. As for Pongo, he is the perfect sub as he offers something very different than we have. How many times you see the team become more dangerous after Pongo got on at the 60 minutes mark. He may not be good enough yet to start but he is surely a better option than to put Cisse on. As for who we should buy, I don't really rate Defoe. I prefer Anelka as he is really a complete striker who has all except his attitude is a problem. I think he really fit into our style of play. Not sure how much he will cost though.

[bigmick]

IMHO, the English football is pacy, yes (so is Spanish one, you can bet that we play faster than in Norway), but is it there SUCH a difference between top leagues like the Spaniard, ENglish, Italian, or German one?

I honestly think there isn't. And the best proof is that when Chelsea - Barcelona, Real Madrid - Arsenal,  Sevilla - Middlesborough, Liverpool - Betis, or Espanyol -Schalke 04 play a game between them in UEFA and CL games, we see leveled matches, CoolHandLuke.

Time to nail one of the most common misconceptions about World football right here. Yes the Spanish league is pacy, and it is probably of a higher standard than the Premiership from what I have seen, no argument there.

The difference, and this is the absolute crux of the matter, is the way the laws of the game are interpreted. TTime and again we see players come into the Premiership and go to ground looking longingly at the referee. You don't get free-kicks here generally for nudges and dives. Defenders will bully a striker who is not prepared to protect the ball with the whole of his body strength. Morientes will never, ever succeed in English football.

[48-1119859832]

Akumaface,

Whilst I agree with you about Mellor being a good player with lots of potential (you only have to look at his involvement last season to see this) he's not good enough or experienced enough to cope with the demands of playing for such a demanding fanbase and such an illustrious football team. That's why I think was a good decision to let him go to Wigan, where he gain that extra bit of experience, match fitness and whatever else he needs to improve on.

As for Pongo he's a good player and just like Mellor is a real talent for the future of this club if he is in Rafa's plans. However bringing him on for the last 10 or 20 minutes every other game or here and there isn't good for Pongo himself and his career, it might be good for us in the short term but would it be good for us in the long term? That's what you have to ask yourself.

And as for Anelka, I really don't rate him at all, he was great earlier in his career when he was playing for Arsenal and Paris Saint Germain but he hasn't been the same Anelka from that period. As for Defoe, he seems very prolific and has a great eye for goal. He's not easily outmuscled and he has seemed to have fallen out of favour at Spurs, so it would be a good solution to our problems, altho as I've sed the cost of signing him could be the problem.

[48-1119859832]

Bigmick,

How can you say that Morientes will never settle into the Premiership? It's a wild comment that's beyond forgiveness. Many people said that Pires and Henry were never going to make it in English football and then they ran the show in probably one of the best and most exciting teams I've ever seen.Pires isn't strong on the ball, he dives, he gets nudged off and yet he is quite a successful player and quite a good one too and to right Morientes off in what just over a year is quite frankly foolish, unless you can predict the future?

Morientes has actually gone from leaps and bounds from last season, when he first came here, he was unfit, lacked interest, didn't trackback, didn't make things happen, didn't link up play very well and he looked like an alien on an unknown planet.

This season he has corrected all the above, he's match fit, he's linking up play, he's tracking back, makin tackles, being more creative. All Morientes has to do is become a bit more physical when on the ball, it's not something which you can learn over night it takes time. I mean it took Henry a while n it took Pires a while, but they came thru and have been instrumental to the Gunners success in recent years.

Maybe Morientes won't succeed, maybe he will fail but to right him off now is just ridiculous. The question you could ask Big Mick, is when will Morientes get used to the physical nature of English football, not if.

[Sabre]

The difference, and this is the absolute crux of the matter, is the way the laws of the game are interpreted. TTime and again we see players come into the Premiership and go to ground looking longingly at the referee. You don't get free-kicks here generally for nudges and dives

This is bloody true, and I like more the English standards of Refferees than the Spaniards. But is Morientes really one of this moaning when contact players? I think not, he gets up quickly with no gestures, I'd say. Unlike what Torres or Raul would do! Those would complain for sure!

Morientes is having a bad form of games "scoring"wise, that's all, just like Crouch did.

[L-type]

Neil Mellor, eh?

But neither Mellor nor Pongo are here, so what would it be your realistic proposal? stick with Fowler and Crouch unless injuries come?

Firstly get don't get cute and get a Fu*king grip! dyer think i don't know Mellor and Pongo aren't here ! ? Perhaps my reference to Rafa's faith in our current strke force and subsequent "ironic" mention of Mellor and Pongo got lost in translation.

Secondly , yes , if we bounce out Morientes and Garcia,attack wise we are stuck with two from Fowler ,Crouch and Cisse , can't see tham performing any more dismally than a past sell by date Morientes and a spluttering Garcia .

Well seeing as Garcia has never played as forward I don't see how your logic works out.  So why don't you get a grip !!!

[48-1119859832]

Garcia has played behind the main striker a few times last season for us. So he could be used in that role n he was also used in that position by Barca.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I think a big thing is that in the Premiership defenders and strikers are allowed to bully one another physically, unlike other leagues.

It’s not so much the complaining to referees or diving about, it’s more about the fact that top Premiership strikers almost always relish the physical battle. I can’t remember Morientes winning to many shoulder barges, he either goes in half heartily or ducks out completely. Players like Henry, RVN, Shearer, they all relish the physical battle, they are offended if they lose one, it’s a genuine contest that they want to win. Morientes just isn’t like this, and if you want to be a top striker in the premiership you must have this quality.

And its not something that can be taught, it just nature and instinct.

[bigmick]

Bigmick,

How can you say that Morientes will never settle into the Premiership? It's a wild comment that's beyond forgiveness. Many people said that Pires and Henry were never going to make it in English football and then they ran the show in probably one of the best and most exciting teams I've ever seen.Pires isn't strong on the ball, he dives, he gets nudged off and yet he is quite a successful player and quite a good one too and to right Morientes off in what just over a year is quite frankly foolish, unless you can predict the future?

Morientes has actually gone from leaps and bounds from last season, when he first came here, he was unfit, lacked interest, didn't trackback, didn't make things happen, didn't link up play very well and he looked like an alien on an unknown planet.

This season he has corrected all the above, he's match fit, he's linking up play, he's tracking back, makin tackles, being more creative. All Morientes has to do is become a bit more physical when on the ball, it's not something which you can learn over night it takes time. I mean it took Henry a while n it took Pires a while, but they came thru and have been instrumental to the Gunners success in recent years.

Maybe Morientes won't succeed, maybe he will fail but to right him off now is just ridiculous. The question you could ask Big Mick, is when will Morientes get used to the physical nature of English football, not if.

Jeez it's hard to know where to start with this one really. I think it's probably best I don't TBH, as I've done a hundred posts on this very subject within the last week. There's three or four threads which largely cover the same thing and in those I've explained at length why in my opinion, Morientes will never, ever make it in English football.
I've clearly stated what i think he does wrong, what I think he does right, what he needs to do more of and what I think he is incapable of. In actual fact my hunch is that he is nowhere near the footballer that we thought we were buying and the reality is that he is way past his best.
you say that all Morientes needs to do is to "become a bit more physical when he's on the ball." While I think it's one of the things he needs to do for sure, I would counter that a more pressing need if you ask me is for him to score a goal occasionally/make a meaningful contribution to a game now and then.
You say that maybe he won't succeed, but to write him off now is just ridiculous. OK, so once you've decided that he won't succeed, be it next season or the season after or whatever can you PM me so I know it's then OK and not ridiculous to give my opinion? If you're correct in your opinion that it's only a question of when, not if Morientes will adapt then presumeably you advocate the "lets be patient with him" approach. That's all well and good but if as you say, learning physicality takes time, how long have we got to wait? two seasons, three?
Here's a what if for you. What if I'm correct and he's never going to make it, you've just carried someone in the first team for two seasons (we've already done one)in the misguided hope that he would become a player he had been in the past.

You must always bare in mind that forums are for opinions and they are only that, opinions. You are entitled to yours absolutely as much as I am entitled to mine but I tink on this occasion, a read of some the other posts on the subject along with a stark self-analysis of your own view may have been in order before you labelled any of my opinions ridiculous.

There, I said I wasn't going to get involved.