Liverpool FC Forum

[JohnBull]

We are now in a similar situation as Leeds and Newcastle were a few years ago.
We are still believing that Liverpool Football Club are invunerable and that "it will all turn out OK in the end". It wont.
It's not just Raffa. I genuuinely believe that he's a honest man who really believes in his methods. That self belief is fast becoming his downfall as it is not working with the players HE has signed. These are his players and his methods and they are just not up to it.
It is not just the players. We've two of the greatest Red Shirt Fillers I've ever seen over the past 50 years. The others are not bad players but they either do not understand or just do not want to play in Raffa's gameplan. We keep signing journeymen who are here for the money. I don't blame them for doing that but it's not doing my team any favours. They are grateful for the wage packet but not for the honour of playing for Liverpool.
It is not just the directors/owners. They've not come to Anfield to destroy the club. It is business and it is in their interest to succeed. Sitting in the stands with a brand new scarf on doesn't make you a supporter. They are here to make money, first, second and last.
I believe that we are now reaping the fruit of those years in the 80s when opportunity knocked and was ignored by a club that was resting on its laurels.
Shanks and Paisley made everything seem easy but unfortunately others didn't realise how hard it was to make it appear like that. Me included, it just seemed unstoppable, The Red Bandwagon. One star would come to the end of his shelf life and the next one was ready and waiting to come in.

We are now a club that needs to make big money signings which we cannot afford. The team ethic has gone. No players seem to be coming up through the ranks already knowing their place and requirements in the side.
I know that bargains are not there anymore, there are no more Keegans or Clements waiting to be nicked from Scunthorpe.
I also believe that we are paying good money for players who are no better than some of our homegrown lads.
I went over to The Acadamy last week and you may as well have been in Spain. Where are the local lads going ? I was watching expensive imports there but down the road I could watch local lads with similar skills and a bloody sight more commitment playing good football for nothing.
The few times I've seen Torres around town I've seen a modest, well behaved lad who is a credit to the club. The same cannot be said for some of the over rated superstars (both Red & Blue) who swan around with an unjustified arrogance. Torres is a breath of fresh air at Anfield but he is by far, an exception. Shanks would have loved him. I'm struggling to think of another import who would pass this test (probably Kuyt, honest and hard working).
The club is in a BIG mess and it will not recover overnight. The shake-up that is coming had better be a good one or we will never recover.
This is The Last Chance Saloon.

[access]

Well ''John Bull'' I think this is probably the most sensible correct peice of writing I have read on here for a long time, its so true that it actually hurts when I read it.

I am a 52 year old Liverpool Supporter who now 'wonders' what went wrong especially when we had so much potential.

I hope its not our Last Chance Saloon but somehow I believe it actually is.

[Ben Patrick]

I think January is going to answer alot of questions.

We know the owners are the root of all of the problems.

What January should prove is whether the financial situation is as bad as we have all feared for so long.
The limitations of the squad are there to see.
If players are not brought in in January then all of the rumours about H & G will appear true.

If however we go out and spend money and bring in 1 or 2 players then hopefully we can put a miserable first half of the season behind us.

Am not holding my breath though.

[JBG]

We will never become a Leeds simply because we are just too big. Let me clarify what I mean. Of course, things could go tits up, we run out of cash, need to sell of major players and maybe even get relegated (will never happen, but theoretically might) but even if we hit rock bottom there is so much money making potential in the club that it would only be a matter of time before new owners came in and rebuild. Look at Juventus a couple of years ago: forceably relegated, sold off most of their best players but came back up straight away and are now up at the business end of Seria A (although granted not yet at the level they were before). And as big as Juve are, as a worldwide brand, they aren't a patch on us.

While we are not immune from disasterous circumstances that might see us relegated (although that would result from primarily financial and not football reasons) we wouldn't stay down for long as we would be far too attractive a proposition for some investor to come along and revitalise us.

[bigmick]

When someone asked "can we still win the league" this week, I asked 'ever?'  I really do believe some of our fans are sleep walking into mediocrity, chanting a mantra of being a true supporter, of tradition, not being a sacking club, backing the manager, knowing our history and all that stuff. Managers must inspire groups of players to perform over and above their collective ability. That's what the best ones do, they get bunches of players to outperform, they make the transfer budget go further than it seems possible, they get value for money both as a seller and a buyer, they develop from within and both unearth and sign a couple of gems.

Too often our manager does the opposite. The underachievement from the group of players we have this season is absolutely shocking. We are an absolute country mile behind where we really ought to be based on the ability of what is available to us, and probably further based on what we've shelled out. If we were where Arsenal are, third and half a dozen points back I'd be disappointed. To be twelve back, in seventh and in and around Birmingham and Stoke is nothing short of a disgrace. We must act before it's too late, the players are telling us with their performances what their feelings on the subject are.

We need someone to provide inspiration, Rafa patently obviously isn't doing it.

[bunglemark2]

When someone asked "can we still win the league" this week, I asked 'ever?'  I really do believe some of our fans are sleep walking into mediocrity, chanting a mantra of being a true supporter, of tradition, not being a sacking club, backing the manager, knowing our history and all that stuff. Managers must inspire groups of players to perform over and above their collective ability. That's what the best ones do, they get bunches of players to outperform, they make the transfer budget go further than it seems possible, they get value for money both as a seller and a buyer, they develop from within and both unearth and sign a couple of gems.

Too often our manager does the opposite. The underachievement from the group of players we have this season is absolutely shocking. We are an absolute country mile behind where we really ought to be based on the ability of what is available to us, and probably further based on what we've shelled out. If we were where Arsenal are, third and half a dozen points back I'd be disappointed. To be twelve back, in seventh and in and around Birmingham and Stoke is nothing short of a disgrace. We must act before it's too late, the players are telling us with their performances what their feelings on the subject are.

We need someone to provide inspiration, Rafa patently obviously isn't doing it.

Well said, mick.
It's not often I agree with you - mostly because I can't be er.sed to read the tomes you post, but well said nonetheless....

[stmichael]

We are now in a similar situation as Leeds and Newcastle were a few years ago.
We are still believing that Liverpool Football Club are invunerable and that "it will all turn out OK in the end". It wont.
It's not just Raffa. I genuuinely believe that he's a honest man who really believes in his methods. That self belief is fast becoming his downfall as it is not working with the players HE has signed. These are his players and his methods and they are just not up to it.
It is not just the players. We've two of the greatest Red Shirt Fillers I've ever seen over the past 50 years. The others are not bad players but they either do not understand or just do not want to play in Raffa's gameplan. We keep signing journeymen who are here for the money. I don't blame them for doing that but it's not doing my team any favours. They are grateful for the wage packet but not for the honour of playing for Liverpool.
It is not just the directors/owners. They've not come to Anfield to destroy the club. It is business and it is in their interest to succeed. Sitting in the stands with a brand new scarf on doesn't make you a supporter. They are here to make money, first, second and last.
I believe that we are now reaping the fruit of those years in the 80s when opportunity knocked and was ignored by a club that was resting on its laurels.
Shanks and Paisley made everything seem easy but unfortunately others didn't realise how hard it was to make it appear like that. Me included, it just seemed unstoppable, The Red Bandwagon. One star would come to the end of his shelf life and the next one was ready and waiting to come in.

We are now a club that needs to make big money signings which we cannot afford. The team ethic has gone. No players seem to be coming up through the ranks already knowing their place and requirements in the side.
I know that bargains are not there anymore, there are no more Keegans or Clements waiting to be nicked from Scunthorpe.
I also believe that we are paying good money for players who are no better than some of our homegrown lads.
I went over to The Acadamy last week and you may as well have been in Spain. Where are the local lads going ? I was watching expensive imports there but down the road I could watch local lads with similar skills and a bloody sight more commitment playing good football for nothing.
The few times I've seen Torres around town I've seen a modest, well behaved lad who is a credit to the club. The same cannot be said for some of the over rated superstars (both Red & Blue) who swan around with an unjustified arrogance. Torres is a breath of fresh air at Anfield but he is by far, an exception. Shanks would have loved him. I'm struggling to think of another import who would pass this test (probably Kuyt, honest and hard working).
The club is in a BIG mess and it will not recover overnight. The shake-up that is coming had better be a good one or we will never recover.
This is The Last Chance Saloon.

Don't agree with the Leeds/Newcastle comparison but agree with other parts of your post.

I agree that we have been on our back heel pretty much ever since the beginning of the 90', and the only thing that have kept us remotely close to the various PL-winners all these years have actually been our legacy, our traditions and our will to be where we should be. You can't live forever on pure will though, something more is needed. We need to be competitive financially and in the transfer marked, we need a stable professional organisation that knows how to work together towards the same goals, but we haven't had that for a very long time and it doesn't look like we will either in the forseeable future.


What some people seem to forget is that being Liverpool FC is no guarantee of success. You can't just say that a manager of Liverpool FC must give you trophies without acknowledging what goes on behind the curtains. Liverpool has, in my opinion, had loads of 'behind the curtains' problems for years now. I am of course talking about our owners, but that's not all. It started before that, we fell behind long before that and have had a struggle to keep up with United first, then Arsenal, and then Chelsea, and now probably City aswell over the next few years.

[Ciggy]

The shake-up that is coming had better be a good one or we will never recover.

What does this mean John? Anything to do with twit & tw@t coming over at the weekend?

[tonyeh]

Lads,

The worst is yet to come. We haven't reached the nadir yet. Hopefully, we don't reach it.

If action (whatever that action is) isn't taken soon and we remain on this uneven (to be kind) streak, Liverpool COULD see itself fighting to get out of the relegation zone in a few months time. That's where draws and losses week in/week out lead to.

Liverpool is a team in crisis at the moment. That crisis hasn't seen the end point yet. But it's very difficult to ignore the very real possiblility that the team could be in much worse shape come May.

[Benny The Noon]

And the other side of the coin is with returning stars coming back to sharpness and fitness could see us have an upturn in form and get ourselves back up in the mix - Got four winable games coming up with players like torres and gerrard getting back to full fitness.

[tonyeh]

That COULD happen Benny, yes. But, I think based on all the problems Liverpool have at the moment, it's unlikely to happen.

There's much more going on than "fitness", "Sharpness" and missings "stars".

[Benny The Noon]

But think most of the problems have been down to the players being out of form and not playing enough together - ie on wed it was the first time torres and gerrard had played together for 12 matches i think and the last was Lyon when gerrard went off after 20 mins and before that it was the stuffing off Hull . With them two back and playing and the added dimension of Aquilani getting up to speed could easily see a bit of return to form , which increases confidence , increases belief and gives the players a big lift and pressure comes off a bit .

[tonyeh]

Well, I'm afraid that's where we disagree. I think relying on the canards of missing players and injuries, is simply ignoring the rot.

And even if we cannot compete, because we are simply missing Torres'n'Gerrard FC, then we really are in a state.

Plus, there's no reason to believe that they'll be immune from a knock again and be out for months, which will mean bad form again and going further down the spiral. After so many years and so much money, we simply should NOT be absolutely dependent on two players.

It's truly incredible.

[Owzat]

When someone asked "can we still win the league" this week, I asked 'ever?'  I really do believe some of our fans are sleep walking into mediocrity, chanting a mantra of being a true supporter, of tradition, not being a sacking club, backing the manager, knowing our history and all that stuff. Managers must inspire groups of players to perform over and above their collective ability. That's what the best ones do, they get bunches of players to outperform, they make the transfer budget go further than it seems possible, they get value for money both as a seller and a buyer, they develop from within and both unearth and sign a couple of gems.

Too often our manager does the opposite. The underachievement from the group of players we have this season is absolutely shocking. We are an absolute country mile behind where we really ought to be based on the ability of what is available to us, and probably further based on what we've shelled out. If we were where Arsenal are, third and half a dozen points back I'd be disappointed. To be twelve back, in seventh and in and around Birmingham and Stoke is nothing short of a disgrace. We must act before it's too late, the players are telling us with their performances what their feelings on the subject are.

We need someone to provide inspiration, Rafa patently obviously isn't doing it.

Well said, mick.
It's not often I agree with you - mostly because I can't be er.sed to read the tomes you post, but well said nonetheless....

I'm afraid I have to agree as well, it is about time some of those still backing the manager opened their eyes a bit wider so they can see

[tubby]

Unfortunatley Mr Moores and Parry have made the bed and now we have to lie in it.