Liverpool FC Forum

[red till i die!!]

That squad might look good on paper but the reality of it is completely different.

Alison- great keeper.
Trent- good player but not without faults.
Van Dijk - priceless
Gomez- good player but now on his 3rd lengthy lay off.
Robertson- great defender
Hendo - beginning to pick up a lot of injuries.
Fabinho- brilliant player and one of the best players we have.
Keita - who cares how good he is if hes never available. He has done absolutely nothing here.
Mane- good player but drifts in and out for large periods.
Firmino- dont know what his best position is but it's not as a 9.
Salah- the best of the 3 but probably the most frustrating.

That's our 11 and while it would give any one a game on the day there is still a few that need to be giving 150% for it to work.

The squad.
Kelleher - no where near ready.
Matip- brilliant player but an awful crock.
Tsmikas - barely kicked a ball for us but I'm sure hes brilliant.
Gini - solid player but only half interested because of his contract situation.
Thiago - quality player
Milner - well past it this 2 years.
Shaqiri - been terrible, looks like a square trying to fit in a round hole.
Jones -  got talent but shouldn't be a regular starter.
Origi - absolute rubbish.
Jota - good promising player that's going to turn it around for us as soon as he is back.
Ox -  another crock.

Just because we sign average players doesn't mean that they suddenly become world class when they get a game for us. 

We do sell to buy. Dont be using the pr excuse that the player wanted out so that's why he was sold. They arent going to stay here forever and anyone of them would force through a move to Barca or Real if offered it. It's not just coincidence that any significant investment has come from player sales. Even now the only way we can improve the set up is to sell and no one wants the duds. This leaves us having to part with a player we dont want to so its sell to buy. Dress it up or spin it the way you want but that's the way it is.

Is it that bad as fans that we want to see investment. We are ONE OF THE BIGGEST CLUBS IN THE WORLD who has spent the last 11 years maximising revenues and CUTTING COSTS but yet here we are in the current climate without a pot to pi$$ in unless we sell.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

That squad might look good on paper but the reality of it is completely different.

Alison- great keeper.
Trent- good player but not without faults.
Van Dijk - priceless
Gomez- good player but now on his 3rd lengthy lay off.
Robertson- great defender
Hendo - beginning to pick up a lot of injuries.
Fabinho- brilliant player and one of the best players we have.
Keita - who cares how good he is if hes never available. He has done absolutely nothing here.
Mane- good player but drifts in and out for large periods.
Firmino- dont know what his best position is but it's not as a 9.
Salah- the best of the 3 but probably the most frustrating.

That's our 11 and while it would give any one a game on the day there is still a few that need to be giving 150% for it to work.

The squad.
Kelleher - no where near ready.
Matip- brilliant player but an awful crock.
Tsmikas - barely kicked a ball for us but I'm sure hes brilliant.
Gini - solid player but only half interested because of his contract situation.
Thiago - quality player
Milner - well past it this 2 years.
Shaqiri - been terrible, looks like a square trying to fit in a round hole.
Jones -  got talent but shouldn't be a regular starter.
Origi - absolute rubbish.
Jota - good promising player that's going to turn it around for us as soon as he is back.
Ox -  another crock.

Just because we sign average players doesn't mean that they suddenly become world class when they get a game for us. 

We do sell to buy. Dont be using the pr excuse that the player wanted out so that's why he was sold. They arent going to stay here forever and anyone of them would force through a move to Barca or Real if offered it. It's not just coincidence that any significant investment has come from player sales. Even now the only way we can improve the set up is to sell and no one wants the duds. This leaves us having to part with a player we dont want to so its sell to buy. Dress it up or spin it the way you want but that's the way it is.

Is it that bad as fans that we want to see investment. We are ONE OF THE BIGGEST CLUBS IN THE WORLD who has spent the last 11 years maximising revenues and CUTTING COSTS but yet here we are in the current climate without a pot to pi$$ in unless we sell.

I’m amazed at how poor our team has suddenly become when they suffer through a lot of injuries - a team that won the CL and League is now that poor ?


Are you really saying that is was just PR that the likes of Torres , Coutinho and Suarez wanted to leave and we in fact just sold them to get money ?

The club is self sufficient- why are people struggling to understand that ?


The club has done a lot of commercial work to improve the  income to allow the manager to spend more on players - we were looking at being around £100-£130mil a year profit to go towards player purchases - then Covid and the club is going to lose around £90mil this year due to the lack of match day income , that’s the reality of the current climate

What are these cutting costs you are talking about ? And just saying “we are one of the biggest clubs in the world “ doesn’t suddenly make money appear

Where do you expect the investment to come from ? The owners arent cash rich like others - their money is tied up in assets , we can take out loans ?

[devaney]

Lallana - scroll down to my signature, it’s in red, for full details of NET spend. Having said that I would have thought it was very obvious, given the figures that I quoted, that I was referring to NET spend.

You seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that the club has made significant profits during the last few years. Running a debt free business is not necessarily a good thing if it is at the expense of future success. Just look at just how successful austerity rather than investment proved to be in this country over a period of 10 years. Failing to constantly invest for the future is a recipe for disaster. Sustainability and managing debt can effectively run in tandem.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

Lallana - scroll down to my signature, it’s in red, for full details of NET spend. Having said that I would have thought it was very obvious, given the figures that I quoted, that I was referring to NET spend.

You seem to have conveniently overlooked the fact that the club has made significant profits during the last few years. Running a debt free business is not necessarily a good thing if it is at the expense of future success. Just look at just how successful austerity rather than investment proved to be in this country over a period of 10 years. Failing to constantly invest for the future is a recipe for disaster. Sustainability and managing debt can effectively run in tandem.

I view the forum on a mobile so I have no idea what’s in a signature either way Net Spend isn’t a pointer to be used to how well a club buys players.

What significant profits are you talking about ? Most of the profits the club makes is spent on servicing the wage bill and also player purchases - it’s all in the accounts

The last published accounts from our most successful financial year had a pre tax profit of just below £40mil - that was with all the CL money player sales etc

People keep talking about investment - from where ? The owners are cash rich more asset rich and it’s multiple owners not just one , the club don’t want to go and start taking out loans against the club

When we get match day revenues back and the shirt sales come through the club is going to start having around £100mil a year surplus to spend on players - Covid has hit the club hard because all the surplus and commercial revenue is being spent to ensure we get though the Covid issues with no financial restraints.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Always thought of net spend as a red herring and an even weaker argument when considered over selective periods of times (1 year, 5 years, 10 years, etc). It’s so narrow and completely ignores so many factors such as one off freak sales such as Coutinho, how well the club is generally doing when selling, how well the academy is doing at producing players for the first team squad therefore reducing the need to go into the transfer market, what are the actual needs for the squad at any given time, etc. Always looked at incomings and outgoings on a season by season basis and in a more holistic view of what’s going on at the club in general.

Even without van Dijk and Gomez we were sitting top of the League at Christmas having topped our Champions League group. It was only when we then lost Matip, our third and final full time CB, against West Brom, did things start to fall apart. That was obviously then compounded by us losing Fabinho in January so leaving us with none of our top 4 CB options. I’m pretty sure if any two of the 4 had stayed fit we’d be top of the league or very close to it and this thread wouldn’t have been started. Instead of bringing in another CB, Klopp decided to bring in Thiago giving us a total of 8 midfielders with only 3 of them being able to fit into the team. So not really unreasonable to use Fabinho as 4th choice CB especially when you look at the performances he has put in.

Without doubt FSG are on the conservative and strategic side of the scale when it comes to how they manage the club financially, and you could argue the club could take more risks such as taking out loans from financial institutions to buy players, but the money that is coming into the club is being spent on the club whether it be on the payroll (3rd highest in the PL), agent fees when we buy players or renew contracts, transfer fees, paying back loans for capital expenditure projects, etc.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

Always thought of net spend as a red herring and an even weaker argument when considered over selective periods of times (1 year, 5 years, 10 years, etc). It’s so narrow and completely ignores so many factors such as one off freak sales such as Coutinho, how well the club is generally doing when selling, how well the academy is doing at producing players for the first team squad therefore reducing the need to go into the transfer market, what are the actual needs for the squad at any given time, etc. Always looked at incomings and outgoings on a season by season basis and in a more holistic view of what’s going on at the club in general.

Even without van Dijk and Gomez we were sitting top of the League at Christmas having topped our Champions League group. It was only when we then lost Matip, our third and final full time CB, against West Brom, did things start to fall apart. That was obviously then compounded by us losing Fabinho in January so leaving us with none of our top 4 CB options. I’m pretty sure if any two of the 4 had stayed fit we’d be top of the league or very close to it and this thread wouldn’t have been started. Instead of bringing in another CB, Klopp decided to bring in Thiago giving us a total of 8 midfielders with only 3 of them being able to fit into the team. So not really unreasonable to use Fabinho as 4th choice CB especially when you look at the performances he has put in.

Without doubt FSG are on the conservative and strategic side of the scale when it comes to how they manage the club financially, and you could argue the club could take more risks such as taking out loans from financial institutions to buy players, but the money that is coming into the club is being spent on the club whether it be on the payroll (3rd highest in the PL), agent fees when we buy players or renew contracts, transfer fees, paying back loans for capital expenditure projects, etc.

Excellent post

Also it seems that because of the commercial work done by the club we may well come through the pandemic is a decent place financially depending on shirt sales and the manager will have a decent budget in the summer to use

[devaney]

CHL - Net spend can only ever be used as a barometer. I agree it certainly isn’t an exact science and obviously other factors have to be considered. One year net spend comparisons mean very little however I certainly don’t agree that the same can be said regarding periods of 5 hand 10 years. You really don’t need to look very much further than Manchester City for clarification. They have invested heavily in players and as a result have phenomenal strength in depth and  the trophies to prove it. Again it isn’t an exact science because over the last 10 years United have invested a similar amount (net) in players to City with very limited success. Liverpool’s investment in players since winning the Champions League is somewhat derisory in net terms and in my opinion the key reason why we find ourselves in the position we are. Injuries have been an absolute disaster compared to the vast majority of other Premiership teams. Is it possible due to a lack of rotation that our lads are knackered and possibly more fragile? Greater strength in depth would rectify that problem. We are trying to play top flight football with the likes of Shaquiri, AOC, Origi and to a lesser extent Jones as Idont think we should have to rely on him.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

To put into context rbe level of injuries we have had this year


The combined amount of matches missed by out players 206

The next highest is Leicester at 102

[7_Kewell]

Injuries are part and parcel of the game. But the key injuries we've suffered this year are beyond anything I've seen at Liverpool.

As some have already have said, we'd be fine losing 2 out of Gomez, VVD, Matip and Fab. But losing all has done us in.

[devaney]

As I stated in my original post I believe our recent problems have been the result of a combination of factors and injuries undoubtedly have played a major part. However it would be somewhat futile to suggest that they are the only reason. My major concern is our total lack of meaningful investment in players since we won the Champions League in 2019. You really don’t have to go any further than January of this year to fully appreciate the extent of the problem. We desperately needed one or two high quality defenders and we chose to deal in the bargain basement on the very last day of the transfer window when in reality we should’ve had a quality player lined up to sign on January 1st. We constantly low ball clubs and is it any wonder we fail to sign players.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

As I stated in my original post I believe our recent problems have been the result of a combination of factors and injuries undoubtedly have played a major part. However it would be somewhat futile to suggest that they are the only reason. My major concern is our total lack of meaningful investment in players since we won the Champions League in 2019. You really don’t have to go any further than January of this year to fully appreciate the extent of the problem. We desperately needed one or two high quality defenders and we chose to deal in the bargain basement on the very last day of the transfer window when in reality we should’ve had a quality player lined up to sign on January 1st. We constantly low ball clubs and is it any wonder we fail to sign players.

We don’t “fail” to sign players


The club spend any money available to them within the budget - there is a waiting game right now in regards how much money each club will lose during the pandemic because of the lack of matchday revenue so the shirt sales are going to be key as well as selling players in the summer

I believe that last two transfer windows have been the lowest in terms of spending for a long time yet we still managed to bring in 5 players - only club that did spend a lot were Chelsea and even that was down to money from players they sold

After the CL win the club clearly felt there wasn’t a huge need to bring in too many players beyond a GK ( because Mignolet wanted to leave late in the window ) , Klopp even mentioned it in the 30 years of hurt video. There appears to be an expectation that a club must buy new players each summer - we didn’t need too , the squad was clearly good enough and that was shown by going onto win the title

And then this summer we add three players into the squad in Thiago , Jota and Tsimikas

[devaney]

It’s simply isn’t good enough for a club to rest on its laurels which is basically what we did after winning the Champions League. It is absolutely ridiculous to stick your head in the ground and simply say the team is good enough so we don’t need to buy players. Whilst that is not necessarily a short term problem it is certainly a recipe for disaster in the long term. During 19/20 We spent £9m on new players and sold players to the value of £37m. Investing in players for the future is absolutely vital and regardless of FSG’s policies they have been thoroughly  miserly during the last two years. Are you seriously trying to tell me that we are well positioned for the future? We have an ageing squad and a number of players that simply aren’t good enough. Matip and Keita as good as they are simply cannot be relied upon. AOC, Shaquiri, Origi and Adrian are sub standard and contribute virtually nothing. Divock has always flattered to deceive except for one very memorable night for which we will all be eternally grateful. We lack strength in depth regardless of our injury problems and it is hurting the club.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

It’s simply isn’t good enough for a club to rest on its laurels which is basically what we did after winning the Champions League. It is absolutely ridiculous to stick your head in the ground and simply say the team is good enough so we don’t need to buy players. Whilst that is not necessarily a short term problem it is certainly a recipe for disaster in the long term. During 19/20 We spent £9m on new players and sold players to the value of £37m. Investing in players for the future is absolutely vital and regardless of FSG’s policies they have been thoroughly  miserly during the last two years. Are you seriously trying to tell me that we are well positioned for the future? We have an ageing squad and a number of players that simply aren’t good enough. Matip and Keita as good as they are simply cannot be relied upon. AOC, Shaquiri, Origi and Adrian are sub standard and contribute virtually nothing. Divock has always flattered to deceive except for one very memorable night for which we will all be eternally grateful. We lack strength in depth regardless of our injury problems and it is hurting the club.

The team went onto to win the title surely that shows that the squad was good enough at that point in time to win the  league

And it’s clearly false to suggest that players like Adrian, Origi , Shaqiri were not good enough in that season

Alisson went off injured in the first game of the season and Adrian was in goal for 10 straight games - 10 games were we won every single game

Origi was playing in place of Mo was injured against Leicester and also Bobby who was rested after the summer and scored vital goals that season

Shaqiri came on a number of times to change the game - the game against Mancs sticks out

You are judging players affect on the season 19/20 to how they have been this season

Ox was out all season with his knee


May I suggest you watch both the BBC and Sky programs to see exactly how well the players did that season

We last summer went and looked to bring in players - 3 of them to be exact during a financially restricted period

As for aging squad - how old do you think the players are ?! I think we have two above the age of 30 - Henderson and Milner

There are a good number of years in a lot of the key players we have within the squad

We are in this current position because of unprecedented injuries this season - over double any other team in the league - nothing to do with players purchased

[devaney]

I’m not bothered about the past - it has gone. I’m talking about now and the future. I never suggested that AOC, Shaquiri and Origi didn’t contribute anything in the past which is obvious considering my comments about Divock. When they have been utilised this season they have all performed at a level that doesn’t win you anything. If you are satisfied with that level of quality then so be it. As for Adrian again I am talking about now and the future and he most definitely is not the answer and he wouldn’t have played against Sheffield except for the fact that Kelleher was injured.

You’ll be trying to convince me next that Firmino (give the ball to Bobby and he will score?) isn’t a problem and playing at the top of his game.

So you think that key players reaching close to 30 have a good number of years left. What do you mean by a good number? 2,3 or 4 at best and that is why it is vital not to stand still which you don’t seem able to appreciate.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

So did you expect us last summer to replace

Origi
Ox
Shaqiri
Adrian

During a summer where clubs were clearly not spending too much due to the pandemic. You can’t sell players and replace them if there is no one willing to buy them

Yet in the summer we still purchased three players to bolster the squad - and guess what happened to those three - they suffered injuries


As for Bobby , yep he is struggling but then so is Mane and the player who was brought in to support them Jota is injured

But also add both TAA and Robbo have struggled and the midfield have struggled and it all comes back to losing the clubs three main CB’s due to season long injuries as well as losing two key centre mids through injury

As for the age of the players

Henderson is now 30 - got a good 3/4 years left
Gini just turned 30 - 3/4 years left

VVD 29 - 5/6 years left
Thiago 29 -3/4 years left
Bobby 29 - 5 years
Mane , Mo - 28 -6 years left
Alisson 28 - 8 years
Fabinho 27 - 7 years

Then the players below that - Robbo , Keita , TAA , Jota , Jones , Tsimikas , Gomez have years left

The average age of the players I believe is around 26 - lower than Citys for example

We do not have an ageing squad that needs major overhaul