Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I don't know the answer to this off the top of my head, but how long were Evens, Souness, Houllier and Rafa manger, and how many trophies did they win? Surely this ought to be the main criteria for judging a manager. What a nice bloke they were/are, or how much theylove/loved the club must come secondry to success on the pitch in my view.

people can bang on about Rafa for instance all they like, but the fact remains that if we don't win the Champions League this season, that'll be three years without a trophy. Sounness too didn't win enough, and I'm not sure Evans did either, arguably neither did Houllier. Managers must win trophies, simple as that.

[account deleted by request]

Started           Finished             Won                                                Record
Souness 20.04.1991     28.01.1994           FA CUP                                     157 65 47 45 248 186 41.40%

Evans   31.01.1994      12.11.1998           League CUP                                226 116 57 53 375 216 51.33%

Houllier 12.11.1998      24.05.2004          2 League cup's, FA cup , UEFA cup,  307 158 75 74 516 298 51.47%

[bigmick]

Started           Finished             Won                                                Record
Souness 20.04.1991     28.01.1994           FA CUP                                     157 65 47 45 248 186 41.40%

Evans   31.01.1994      12.11.1998           League CUP                                226 116 57 53 375 216 51.33%

Houllier 12.11.1998      24.05.2004          2 League cup's, FA cup , UEFA cup,  307 158 75 74 516 298 51.47%

Well judging by thgat mate, Houllier wins hand down. In five seasons he won the FA Cup, 2 league Cups and the UEFA CUP (when it was a better competition than it is today). In terms of trophies, there's no argument. He's the best manager we've had in recent times.

That said, if Rafa were to win the Champions League again this time around, although he'd still be behind Houllier numerically, in terms of prestige he's be in front I think.

It's worth considering as far as Houllier is concerned also that the League Cup was far more prestigious than it is today.

[account deleted by request]

Started           Finished             Won                                                Record
Souness 20.04.1991     28.01.1994           FA CUP                                     157 65 47 45 248 186 41.40%

Evans   31.01.1994      12.11.1998           League CUP                                226 116 57 53 375 216 51.33%

Houllier 12.11.1998      24.05.2004          2 League cup's, FA cup , UEFA cup,  307 158 75 74 516 298 51.47%

Well judging by thgat mate, Houllier wins hand down. In five seasons he won the FA Cup, 2 league Cups and the UEFA CUP (when it was a better competition than it is today). In terms of trophies, there's no argument. He's the best manager we've had in recent times.

That said, if Rafa were to win the Champions League again this time around, although he'd still be behind Houllier numerically, in terms of prestige he's be in front I think.

It's worth considering as far as Houllier is concerned also that the League Cup was far more prestigious than it is today.

Houllier was pretty good with cups, he never lost a final, even beating the mancs and Arsenal in finals too.

[bigmick]

When you look at his best team, with Hyppia and Henchoz, Marcus Babel, Riise, Dudek before he went all radio Ga-ga, Gerrard, Hamann, Kewell, the right sider escapes me for a second, Owen and Heskey, it wasn't a bad team by any means. In terms of actual money spent on players, it was a very good team which would give the current one a good game I reckon.

How much money did Houllier spend compared to our other manager since we won the title? Does anybody have figures on that stuff?

[account deleted by request]

Evans didn't really spend much £43million gross £28million net.

Houllier spent £111 million gross, £46million net. It would have been £60million, but obviously he left before Cisse came.

Rafa £190million (but a lot of add on fees are not included)gross ,£90million net. Obviously there are large addon figures to those......... £4million for Alonso, up to £7 million for Torres, £3 million for Lucas and £2million for Babel.   

We have to pay £250k for every 15 goals Torres scores for example.

[Kharhaz]

the right sider escapes me for a second

Smicer?

[Big Niall]

i do not believe evans was a top manager but he took over a team that was barely top six (on average) and left them probably top three (on average) after some great football. you can give rafa no credit for sg last minute goal against olympiacus (spelling), luck was a factor in winning that cup. league ignores luck.

evans took over the worst team in lfc history since before shanks, evans was not a top manager like wenger or ferguson but  much better than joke managers like souness or cup managers like souness (rafa is hard to call but i enjoyed watching evans teams while rafa is usually a chore)

[Owzat]

Houllier was pretty good with cups, he never lost a final, even beating the mancs and Arsenal in finals too.

Yes, impressive wins :

- League Cup : 1-1 against Birmingham (won on penalties)
- UEFA Cup : 5-4 against Alaves, extra-time and against NINE men before we finally won it
- FA Cup : 2-1 against Arsenal in a lucky escape, two goals in the last 10 mins from Owen and didn't Henchoz play a blinder in goal?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/1324699.stm

He may have had a good record in finals, or maybe he just had the luck when he needed it


When did we last win an FA Cup convincingly? Pens against West Ham, lucky escape against Arsenal, lost to the mancs in 96, beat Sunderland in 92, 3-2 against the bitters in 89, so probably the double season of 86.


I'd probably put Rafa 5th simply to complete the five European Cups

[GYBS]

Lets not forget GH also beat Man Utd in the League cup , in fact dominated them in the game .

[bigmick]

Lets not forget GH also beat Man Utd in the League cup , in fact dominated them in the game .

He did mate, but it's still Rafa by a whisker from Houllier for me, although he'll probably have to win something next season to avoid slipping behind the Frenchman I think (that's obviously if we don't win the Champions League this season). I don't think Houllier ever went four seasons without winning anything, so Rafa will have to try and get his hands on some silverware I think.

Anyway since Dalglish who is obviously incomparable to anything which has come since, it's Rafa by a nose from Houllier for me, with Evens a close third and Sounness out the back in fourth.

[GYBS]

Souness prob is the worst manager we have had but evans for me isnt that far ahead of him - Evans had all the talent in the world at the time to easily win the league but focused on the wrong things and blew it , souness ripped the club apart and tried it his own way but it must be said he also did some very good things with the club as well - namely the training regimes and the way players went to melwood and diets etc . Yeah for me Rafa is just ahead of GH because of the CL win .

[bigmick]

I actually thought Evans did a good job mate TBH. The club was in ashambolic state when he took over, and he didma sound rebuilding job. Ultimately it was the fact he was too much of a nice bloke which let him down.

[GYBS]

i just look at the players he had at the time mate and a better manager would of got them winning titles

[Owzat]

I actually thought Evans did a good job mate TBH. The club was in ashambolic state when he took over, and he didma sound rebuilding job. Ultimately it was the fact he was too much of a nice bloke which let him down.

Can't disagree. Principly the players he bought were good players, perhaps they just got drawn too much into the "spiceboys" mentality

1995 League Cup Final :

James, Jones, Babb, Scales, Ruddock, Bjornebye, Redknapp, McManaman, Barnes, Rush, Fowler (Subs : Chamberlain, Thomas, Walters)

1996 FA Cup Final :

James, Scales, Wright, Babb, Jones, McAteer, Redknapp, Ince, Barnes, McManaman, Fowler, Collymore (Subs : Warner, Thomas, Rush)

Evans also finished 3rd twice and 4th twice - one of those 4th places was level on points with 2nd. With a bit better attack and defence he might have done better

1994/95 : 4th P42 W21 D11 L10 F65 A37 PTS 74.
15 points behind Blackburn, amazingly the 2nd best defence that season but only 6th best goals scored.

1995/96 : 3rd P38 W20 D11 L7 F70 A34 PTS 71
11 points behind Man Utd, again 2nd best defence (behind Arsenal) but also 2nd best goals scored. In fact Man Utd goals were F73 A35 compared to F70 A34 for Evans' Liverpool, we drew too many games (11 to Man Utd's 7)

1996/97 : 4th P38 W19 D11 L8 F62 A37
Just SEVEN points behind Man Utd, goals scored let us down and too many draws. 2nd and 3rd finished with the same wins etc as us, but better GD.

1997/98 : 3rd P38 W18 D11 L9 F68 A42
11 draws for the FOURTH season in a row, finished 13 points behind Arsenal.

So probably 1995/96 was Evans' peak, 71 points in the league and 3rd, an FA Cup final and finished with the second most goals scored in a Premiership season - topped only by our 2000/01 season. If he could have fixed the drawing problem we'd have been ok, it seems to hit all our managers after a while

Most Draws (Premiership Season)

13 (07/08)
12 (03/04)
11 (92/93, 94/95-97/98)
10 (99/00, 02/03)

Least by any Liverpool manager in the Premiership is 7 draws, in Rafa's first two seasons in charge - 04/05 because we lost too many (14), 05/06 because we won a lot (25) If a manager can shake off the draws and turn them into wins then we're looking good. Unfortunately Rafa is already on 10 this season with plenty of time to add to it.


BTW, I think the fact that we can't agree on who deserves 5th shows there is no clear choice and maybe they don't deserve to come in 5th. Do you go with quantity of trophies (Houllier), quality of trophies (Benitez), league titles (pre-1948 managers), doing well in a hard time (Evans), sympathy vote (Souness) or something else?