Liverpool FC Forum

[JoeTerp]

I think the arguement is suppoesed to be more about what you get out of Gerrard, not Torres. It seems Torres can score in any system, that really isn't news.  the feeling is more about Gerrard's overall impact on the game, and his ability to impact the game even against tough opposition. 

Also why are people surprised that Masch played not his best? If you need games to get your confidence going, then obviously his was at a low.  Also, Keane has only managed to play 90 minutes twice, so maybe Rafa thought he could be most effective if he was brought on in the 2nd half after we had worn down citeh a bit, in the same way that we use Babel sometimes.

Also I would still say that we controlled the match for 75 minutes and never had the game in general taken to us a part from the moments when they scored.  I don't think one game is a good way to judge how useful the formation could prove to be over the course of the season. However, questioning the timing of using it is still legitimate as there are sound arguements on both sides.

[account deleted by request]

I think you mean 12 in 22 games ?

[LFC2007]

It's Rafa's fault we won 

In all seriousness, I thought resting Keane wasn't the best idea, but equally I didn't think the change in formation was responsible for us being 2-0 down. Aurelio couldn't prevent SWP getting the cross in for the first, and Arbeloa dallied on the ball for too long when it eventually arrived, add to that Mascherano was nowhere to be seen when he should've been tracking Ireland who eventually scored. The second came about as a result of a clumsy foul by Riera, but the free-kick by Garrido was superb (Sabre jinxed us ), although the wall had Mascherano in it who's one of our smallest players, which I thought was odd.

I thought first half was fairly equal - they simply took the only two chances which came their way, but they certainly didn't play us off the park. Riera (one of our brightest players first half) was at the forefront of at least 3 dangerous openings for us, in which one was very dangerous. Kuyt completely mishit the first, and couldn't quite reach the second, but at least he was following up in the box - and that was part of the reason he managed to get the winner. Some of our general play was sloppy though, Mascherano's passing in particular was poor, Kuyt's too. Arbeloa had a bit of a mare first half but more than made up for it in the second.

Gerrard drifted throughout the half, taking up positions on the left and right, with Riera and Kuyt both moving infield at times, but he didn't look particularly comfortable when moving into centre in a supporting capacity for Torres and that was partly down to City's effective marking, but partly because he's not as effective in those positions. I didn't see the need for a second defensive midfielder at all throughout the first half, Gerrard and one of Alonso/Mascherano (though preferrably Alonso) could've handled the load. Overall, I didn't think the formation cost us the 2 goals, but I felt we could've got more out of the team going forward with Keane in the side, replacing Kuyt and moving Gerrard to the right, or keeping the same formation and selection as previous games.

Second half, Kuyt drifted inside again and almost won us a penalty, and our attitude and general play improved. Still with the same formation we scored a brilliant team goal. Gerrard was in one of his wide positions on the right when he received the ball to play to Arbeloa - whose run was excellent because they hadn't anticipated it and he saw the opening. Then Torres used his body to screen the ball from the FB and slot in.

They had a chance to kill the game at 2-1, but Robinho missed and was offside anyway. Zabaleta was sent off, then, Dossena and Keane arrived and helped change the game. Aurelio had a poor game I thought so was justifiably removed, and the same applied to Mascherano. Only then did we revert back to the formation of previous matches. The equaliser came about because Dossena was willing to get forward and at least try and put the cross in - which is something Aurelio hadn't attempted. The corner was excellent, the header equal to it, but the defending was very poor. Richards was initially marking Torres and got blocked off by Kompany who then couldn't see Torres because he was coming from behind him, and Keane took Gelson away from the front post.

Then Benayoun came on and set up Dossena for the cross to Keane with some clever link up play. Keane did brilliantly to set up Torres for that great chance he missed late on, then Benayoun's movement for the third was top notch. Dossena's pass was weighted perfectly and Benayoun held his run, then moved and took it into the box, showed good awareness to cut it back for Torres and Kuyt was there again following up.

I wouldn't say Rafa's selection policy cost us the game, poor errors nearly cost us the game, but I would say his substitutions (all had a big impact) in tandom with the sending off won us the game.

[tonyeh]

I think you mean 12 in 22 games ?

Yep, it's been edited. Been a long day in here.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[LFC1982]

It's Rafa's fault we won 

In all seriousness, I thought resting Keane wasn't the best idea, but equally I didn't think the change in formation was responsible for us being 2-0 down. Aurelio couldn't prevent SWP getting the cross in for the first, and Arbeloa dallied on the ball for too long when it eventually arrived, add to that Mascherano was nowhere to be seen when he should've been tracking Ireland who eventually scored. The second came about as a result of a clumsy foul by Riera, but the free-kick by Garrido was superb (Sabre jinxed us ), although the wall had Mascherano in it who's one of our smallest players, which I thought was odd.

I thought first half was fairly equal - they simply took the only two chances which came their way, but they certainly didn't play us off the park. Riera (one of our brightest players first half) was at the forefront of at least 3 dangerous openings for us, in which one was very dangerous. Kuyt completely mishit the first, and couldn't quite reach the second, but at least he was following up in the box - and that was part of the reason he managed to get the winner. Some of our general play was sloppy though, Mascherano's passing in particular was poor, Kuyt's too. Arbeloa had a bit of a mare first half but more than made up for it in the second.

Gerrard drifted throughout the half, taking up positions on the left and right, with Riera and Kuyt both moving infield at times, but he didn't look particularly comfortable when moving into centre in a supporting capacity for Torres and that was partly down to City's effective marking, but partly because he's not as effective in those positions. I didn't see the need for a second defensive midfielder at all throughout the first half, Gerrard and one of Alonso/Mascherano (though preferrably Alonso) could've handled the load. Overall, I didn't think the formation cost us the 2 goals, but I felt we could've got more out of the team going forward with Keane in the side, replacing Kuyt and moving Gerrard to the right, or keeping the same formation and selection as previous games.

Second half, Kuyt drifted inside again and almost won us a penalty, and our attitude and general play improved. Still with the same formation we scored a brilliant team goal. Gerrard was in one of his wide positions on the right when he received the ball to play to Arbeloa - whose run was excellent because they hadn't anticipated it and he saw the opening. Then Torres used his body to screen the ball from the FB and slot in.

They had a chance to kill the game at 2-1, but Robinho missed and was offside anyway. Zabaleta was sent off, then, Dossena and Keane arrived and helped change the game. Aurelio had a poor game I thought so was justifiably removed, and the same applied to Mascherano. Only then did we revert back to the formation of previous matches. The equaliser came about because Dossena was willing to get forward and at least try and put the cross in - which is something Aurelio hadn't attempted. The corner was excellent, the header equal to it, but the defending was very poor. Richards was initially marking Torres and got blocked off by Kompany who then couldn't see Torres because he was coming from behind him, and Keane took Gelson away from the front post.

Then Benayoun came on and set up Dossena for the cross to Keane with some clever link up play. Keane did brilliantly to set up Torres for that great chance he missed late on, then Benayoun's movement for the third was top notch. Dossena's pass was weighted perfectly and Benayoun held his run, then moved and took it into the box, showed good awareness to cut it back for Torres and Kuyt was there again following up.

I wouldn't say Rafa's selection policy cost us the game, poor errors nearly cost us the game, but I would say his substitutions (all had a big impact) in tandom with the sending off won us the game.

spot on lad

[Igor Zidane]

I seriously don't know what people want .

NEWKIT PUNDITS "No more styling please rafa it's costing us a crack at the league ? "

RAFA  "Ok lads i'll pick the same team (more or less) and see where it gets us . I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT . LORDDEE LORDEE."


NEWKIT PUDITS "No rafa ,we want no changes ,none whatsoever , no formation changes at all , we want world class players in every postion , we want atleast 3 goals per game with none conceded and we want to be top of the table with maximum points . Otherwise Rafa lad we'll call you names like idiot and b@stard and sh!te at man management and loser and lost the plotman ."


RAFA " Stick it up your collective ringpieces you internet pundits , what do you want from me , a personal hearing from everyone of you ,so we can discuss tacticts and players . So you can put me right on where i'm going wrong ,because i'm into playing players for no reason or just to give them a game. I'm desprate for your approval and feck all the people who think i'm doing a good job .There blinded by there rose tinted glasses , i need you internet experts to get from behind you pc's and point me in the right direction , show me where i'm going wrong . I'm wanting to be at that special place your from , that footballing nirvana where things don't go wrong and circumstances don't change . I need to  be at that place where 4-4-2 is the only righteous way to play , save me , save me  from these happy clappers who are pedaling there falsehoods of encouragement and belief , they are the devil son ,they are Lucifer . SAVE ME FOR I AM DOOMED WITHOUT YOUR FOUUNTAIN OF FOOTBALLING KNOWLEDGE .

Or you could have little faith , i know where your coming from you see . I know your scared that this is not the real deal ,that it's another false dawn . I know you desperatly want number 19 ,and your sh1tting yourselves because the mancs are right on our @rses . I know you want to believe ,but you've more or less had it knocked out of you  after 17 years of no tiltle . Iknow because i'm feeling the same and i'm a liverpool supporter like you .

Lets just try and give oureslves the chance of enjoying it this season , if it happens were gonna be so worked up by all the negativity ,we will miss the lot . Lets go on a roller coaster ride this season and enjoy every minute , lets see what happens  and be grateful that we will be able to witness it again . .

Sorry ,rant over .

[maguskwt]

nothing wrong with benitez's change in formation and/or personal... it maybe styling or not... didn't matter to me...here are my points:

1. I've always said that 'rotation' is a very one-dimensional way of putting blame to our underperfomances. Did we go down 2-0 because we added mascherano (a world class DM) and changed our formation to 4-2-3-1? definitely not. As sabre and saint already mentioned it was down to individual errors... silly goals conceded.

2. Did we lack fluency and look lethargic? definitely not! For an away performance we attacked pretty well and if Dirk kuyt converted the good crosses that riera keep delivering before we conceded, we might not have to come back from 2-0 down.

3. people are complaining we converted to 4-2-3-1 and that's a bad idea? this happens to be the formation where we did very well in the last third of last season. We were struggling earlier with 4-4-2 and only winning by individual briliance from torres and gerrard etc. Admittedly we became better... but our performance didn't take a step back because of 4-2-3-1.

4. people are complaining because rafa dropped Keane? Weren't people complaining when he wasn't scoring goals for 10 matches and even saying Keane is not good enough for liverpool and that we paid too much?

5. ppl are complaining Gerrard is in the hole? he scored 2 goals against marseille playing there and using the SAME formation... he also played there last season and formed a very good partnership torres... remember?

6. I can agree that if players are subjected to unfamiliar formations they can underperform... but this was a system most of the players were very familiar with and did very well last season... there's no reason to give an excuse that because the formation changed they didn't know how to play anymore...

I'm sure most of the points were covered in earlier posts by posters, I didn't have time to go through the whole thread...

lastly we didn't "get out of jail"... we broke the feckin prison...  and that requires skill and effort not luck...

[calkop]

You are spot on Joe Terp.  It is more about what you get out of Gerrard than out of Torres. 

In a 4-4-2 Torres does not have the space and freedom to make runs all across the back four, but this allows him to be in the box more and allows Keane to make those runs and feed him the ball where he can be dangerous without having to beat a man or two.

Gerrard, on the other hand, seems to be much more comfortable in the center of a midfield four instead of the second striker/ attacking center mid role he was in for the city game.  For me his movement is not good enough there as he seems to want the ball while he is standing still instead of moving and therefore moving the defense around as well.  Also, Gerrard's passing from midfield asks many more questions of the defense than that of Masch.  Too many times Masch is too happy to play the ball square or back and our build up takes far too long.  Gerrard is much more direct from midfield, slotting direct, penetrating balls to the feet of Keane and Torres, moving our attack further up the pitch behind the oppositions midfield and defense. 

With Gerrard showing much more discipline this year, picking his times to go forward instead of always bombing forward leaving the center of our midfield exposed (as was the case many times last year when he played center mid), we should play 4-4-2 with Gerrard and Alonso and Masch on the bench until his form improves because he was shocking yesterday.

[Ace Ventura]

You could put decent arguments to both sides of this thread, some have.
My personal opinion is that we probably should of played 4-4-2 again, the players appeared in the last few games to be building some momentum - which is vital in a league campaign and look full of confidence. Added to that the fact that Keane had just opened his account midweek and an understanding appears to be developing between himself and Torres so i would rather of let that carry on - unless players were not fit or injured etc.
Rafa doesnt seem to place as much emphasis on things like this as he should imo, more appears to be placed on tactics - nullifying the opposition and individual players not getting too tired.

Now for the other side.........
With this selection i think it was all about the tactics, he appears to be 'seeing the light'    as Bigmick puts it regarding changing players just to keep them fresh for the end of the season.
He has looked at it and seen that city have an abundance of quality in attacking midfield positions and tried to shore it up with two holding players and Gerrard off Torres.
It seemed to be working quite well at the start as we were dominating posession, just lacking a bit of magic and creativity. But once we conceded we really let things slip, both goals could and should of been avoided but i dont think they had anything to do with the formation or tactics.
Rafa probably should of made the Mascherano for Keane change earlier but we all know that its not something he does - that can be frustrating at times but weighing it up at the end of the game the substitutions he made all made a major difference, its a wee bit harsh to say it was his fault in the first place and offer no praise when they clearly did come off in the end.
What i think we should all be made up about is the team spirit, desire, will to win and never know when your beat mentality thats coming out. Thats something that dare i say the mancs have had under Fergie, they have won games like that for years. Its a quality. We kept going right to the end, no lets just keep the point, and Rafa also deserves praise for that because in recent season we would of either lost or just settled for the one point once we got back in it, there is a hunger amongst the squad that is exciting to see.
Even listening to the players after the game you can sense the fight in them, that they are well up for going for it in the league this season.
Its so refreshing to see. Now that could all go pear shaped within a few games, but doesnt mean we shouldnt be very happy with how this season is panning out so far.

Lastly Bigmick i know you have been very critical of Rafa for the 'styling' as you put it over the last few seasons.
But Mascherano for Keane in a formation that we adopted so well for a third of last season in a tricky away game is imo just about acceptable.
I wasnt on here before the match and if i was i probably would of said thats not a bad side to put out. Its not like he changed to a system that was alien to these players and brought in Lucas for Keane etc.
This time i think Rafa deserves praise and not stick, i think some people wont forget the times he has done it in the past easily and thats clouding there judgement on this one tbh.

[GYBS]

very good balanced post ventura and i dont thinkc an find an argument with it at all

[Sabre]

but the free-kick by Garrido was superb (Sabre jinxed us )

Garrido is a grade a cúnt. Not that he hasn't scored a goal like that for his former club, no. He hasn't scored that goal in a training session!! and the bástard comes to Anfield and scores it! I mean, come on!! I was even surprised he got the free kick even if he's left footed.

But you might have noticed though, that he does give a lot of space while defending and he's a bit soft.

Other than that, good post yours, and Ace's.

With Igor Zidane's a laughed a bit, in a good sense

BTW Callkop

Gerrard, on the other hand, seems to be much more comfortable in the center of a midfield four instead of the second striker/ attacking center mid role he was in for the city game.  For me his movement is not good enough there as he seems to want the ball while he is standing still instead of moving and therefore moving the defense around as well.  Also, Gerrard's passing from midfield asks many more questions of the defense than that of Masch.  Too many times Masch is too happy to play the ball square or back and our build up takes far too long.  Gerrard is much more direct from midfield, slotting direct, penetrating balls to the feet of Keane and Torres, moving our attack further up the pitch behind the oppositions midfield and defense. 

Your post is interesting with opinions of your own, welcome to newkit.  I have to defend Mascherano here. Some mentioned that in the first half we didn't look like scoring. With 5 midfielders, you can harm them in the counter, but Manchester city lost the ball in positions that later we could do no harm. I found them as a good team, if I have to be honest.

The good news, at least for me it's good news, is that for the first time in a long time, instead of crushing against the same wall we elaborated our plays, I counted plays with more than 15 passes, and IMHO is the right thing to do when they're defending you well. So I won't blame Mascherano for playing the easy ball sometimes, it didn't seem to me his passes were improductive.

What it's true, is that sometimes Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard stepped each other, but that's perhaps because it was the first game of the season playing that way.

As for Gerrard being much more disciplined... well, I agree he's being disciplined and doing a lot of team work mate, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that other seasons he was un-disciplined, I'd say that he was a bit too enthusiast sometimes. Now, he's able to do more elaborated  building up (when he doesn't see the chance of making a personal play), long build ups that btw help so that Alonso incorporates to the attack, and Aurelio and Arbeloa overlap more.

So the plan A is to play fast if the oppo makes a mistake, but the plan B is to be patient, and this season we're doing right both plans. Yesteryear Torres scored a lot with plan A, but we never knew to play patiently.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I didn’t watch the game yesterday, just caught a 10 minutes highlight package.

We went away to Man City and scored 3 goals and missed two absolute sitters from less than 5 yards out. Their first goal came due to some scrappy defending and their second goal came from a freekick that went past a poor wall.

Apart from conceding two poor goals from individual errors, did the performance of the team drop much compared to our past 5 games or so? Maybe some that have watched the past 5 games can advise.

If we had kept the same team that won in midweek in the Champions League, would we have conceded those goals? PSV were a very poor side that played without any striker and I didn’t think we defending very well in the middle of the pitch that day even though we won.

I don’t think the change we made had a huge impact to be honest. Maybe we were a bit complacent first half? It sounds like we completely controlled the second half even though we made no changes at half time. To me it sounds more like the players were not fully focused at the start of the game, motivation and inspiration is a totally different topic, but I don’t think the changes we made from the PSV game were to blame for the fact that we went 2 goals down.

[Bad Bob]

Lets just try and give oureslves the chance of enjoying it this season , if it happens were gonna be so worked up by all the negativity ,we will miss the lot . Lets go on a roller coaster ride this season and enjoy every minute , lets see what happens  and be grateful that we will be able to witness it again . .

Spot on, mate.  I was told to get a grip yesterday for actually expressing excitement about our comeback and about the way things are developing so far this season.  F.uck that.  We secured three hard-fought points against a spirited opponent on their patch and no one's going to convince me that that's not worth celebrating!

[account deleted by request]

Lets just try and give oureslves the chance of enjoying it this season , if it happens were gonna be so worked up by all the negativity ,we will miss the lot . Lets go on a roller coaster ride this season and enjoy every minute , lets see what happens  and be grateful that we will be able to witness it again . .

Spot on, mate.  I was told to get a grip yesterday for actually expressing excitement about our comeback and about the way things are developing so far this season.  F.uck that.  We secured three hard-fought points against a spirited opponent on their patch and no one's going to convince me that that's not worth celebrating!

I agree mate, celebrate every win and enjoy it as much as you can........we may start losing soon 










Sorry 

[Igor Zidane]

Lets just try and give oureslves the chance of enjoying it this season , if it happens were gonna be so worked up by all the negativity ,we will miss the lot . Lets go on a roller coaster ride this season and enjoy every minute , lets see what happens  and be grateful that we will be able to witness it again . .

Spot on, mate.  I was told to get a grip yesterday for actually expressing excitement about our comeback and about the way things are developing so far this season.  F.uck that.  We secured three hard-fought points against a spirited opponent on their patch and no one's going to convince me that that's not worth celebrating!

I agree mate, celebrate every win and enjoy it as much as you can........we may start losing soon 










Sorry 

I know your joking mate , but in all seriousness .Imagine what this place will be like if and when we do lose . The only thing that's going to stop newkit going into meltdown is a season without losing of Aresnal preportions.