Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I'm obviously really pleased we've started well, only a calamitous refereeing decision preventing us from having a league and cup 100% record. I'm more than a little concerned however that the wrong conclusions may be drawn from our last couple, and our next one result.

Already, the pro-rotationers are getting carried away because we made a stack of changes against Toulouse and still won comfortably. We also made a couple of changes against Sunderland and comfortably prevailed so what's the problem, surely it just proves Rafa was right all along? I'll tell you what, we'll make a load more changes on Saturday against Derby and we'll win again very comfortably. So rotation is working eh Mick 

Well lets get a couple of things straight here. Firstly, Sunderland and Toulouse are very poor teams. Derby on Saturday are a very poor team and Rafa could put Stu the Red up front and we'd probably still win. He could make eight changes from Toulouse and we'd probably still win. Does it prove that mass rotation is the way to go? No, it just proves that these are poor teams.

FWIW I thought and indeed think that Rafa has almost learned his lesson. The selection at Sunderland was mostly sensible (only Babbel for Riise being a typical "Rafaism") but Toulouse at Home was a bit more concerning.

This is what really bothers me. Once we've made half a dozen changes for the Derby game and still won comfortably, will Rafa remember that he played the same team for the first two games? Will he remember that in order to prevail at venues such as Fratton Park you need a team which is fully tunes up, not just players that are honed and ready to go, but a TEAM that is fully tuned up and together?

I've read a couple of times that now the squad is stronger than last season we should be able to rotate without weakening the team so much. The squad is indeed stronger particularly with the introduction of Torres, but by no means to the degree some are indicating (as I've said many times it was strong enough to launch a title push last season as well). The reality is though, even if you replace like with like ability wise, (and Alonso and Masherano would appear to be a perfect example) you still weaken the team by constantly doing so as the other players don't get chance to form a cohesive alliance with that player.

I'm very concerned firstly that we will convince ourselves that selectorial silliness is Ok again by virtue of the fact that we are able to beat substandard teams with what amounts to our reserve eleven. I also hope that the fact that we aren't using these "warm-up" fixtures against the lesser lights to prepare for the bigger battles to come won't come back to haunt us. Sensible rotation is OK (and with Gerrard and Carragher both being out, that's pretty much enough rotating for me TBH) but please no tinkering.

We need to remember that though swapping like for like sounds OK in theory, it won't work. Footballers come in individual packages, but together they form a team. Ultimately, it's the best one of those which will win the league, and not a bunch of rested individuals.

[Sabre]

Well if I got too carried away I would have searched back and brought on front the hugely dissapointing season thread and starting to quote. And not precisely your posts, that are balanced and well thought.

I do think however that rotation deserved a defence after being given stick big time here. So was Rafa. People admit that a stronger squad makes more reasonable the rotation, but wouldn't acknowledge in that mentioned thread of the season review that Rafa hardly had the men he wished in the team at his disposal. Mascherano was only available in winter, and Torres is only here once the board has put a decent money over the table. However all that were excuses and people wanted to compete both in the league and in the CL at the maximum level.

My point is that no matter which team you coach you're going to make mistakes. Manchester is not doing a great start, are they? well I see no press giving stick to Ferguson due to rotation. And last season whenever we had problems away we blamed rotation. We didn't blame the world cup, we didn't blame bad forms of the players, we didn't blame a not proper preseason nor mistakes in the tactics, we didn't blame many factors that actually can make you lose points. It was far too easy to go on the rotation broken record and not analyse further. We rotationists ( ) are just saying that you can manage several games, and even change a lot of players without necessarily lose performance. Carra's absence by itself, might be more important than 3 changes you make elsewhere, for instance. Yesteryear we hadn't Carra in some games, but surely rotation was the culprit.

My point, rotation is not magic, and several points that were said in the past as fair criticism made a lot of sense. But we also gave too much stick to rotation instead of analysing other mistakes or circunstances.

[Ciggy]

There is a bit of a difference now we are attacking away from home not playing as defensive as we have done in the past.
I know its only been a few games but everyone can see the difference and the more we win the more confident we get.

Our counter is very swift and we seem now to have the correct players.
My only worry is all the peppering of the goal and nothing going in the arl onion bag Crouch should have had a hatrick last night and Torres should have scored two on saturday.

But Torres will improve his finishing but I doubt Crouch is ever going to be prolific and scoring headers even Sammi can score headers better than him.

We are starting to take shape I think as in the way Valencia played constantly houding the oppo to retrieve possession, the team are working really hard for each other.

We used to only have Gerrard who ran the show and had to carry the whole team, I think Rafa was aware of it and thought lets get rid of the lazy @rses and those who are not good enough for LFC and bring the players in that are not as good as Gerrard but will take some of the pressure off him carrying the team.

I wont mind if he rotates in some games but not whole sale changes of 7 or 8 players for prem games, we must play our strongest 11 nearly every game, I wont mind changes for the game against Derby.
But I will be annoyed if he starts tinkering when theres no need to.
I must admit I was a bit worried last night when I seen the starting line up considering we hadnt qualified.
And still nervous when it was only 2-0 on agg.

I am just buzzing at the momment I am liking what I am seeing and long may it continue.
But imagine scored from all them chances we create we would be leathal and no fecker would want to play us.

[Bad Bob]

I'm off to work soon so I won't give a full response yet.  But, I do have a couple of points to make in reply to Mick's original post.  Yes, mate, Sunderland and Toulouse are poor teams so perhaps we shouldn't get too carried away with the results.  But, Sheffield United and Maccabi Haifa were poor teams as well and apparently it was our rotation policy that gave us trouble against them at the start of last season.  I think it's fair to acknowledge that our performances are much better this season, even with rotation, primarily because we have better quality players to rotate.

Second, I think that the number of changes Rafa made last night once again underscores which competition he's taking the most seriously (the league).  He was confident we would qualify but was prepared to gamble in a way he's not done in the past.  That suggests to me that he's not going to do anything crazy with team selection in the league.

Third, and this may not carry any weight with some people, but rotation may be a way to keep some members of the squad happier.  We've heard rumblings out of Crouch and Benayoun already and Momo didn't look too happy to come off last night so Rafa's going to have some concerned players this season.  I think that his rotation policy is one way that he can keep a large, talented and hungry squad happy.

Just my preliminary thoughts...

[stmichael]

We are starting to take shape I think as in the way Valencia played constantly houding the oppo to retrieve possession, the team are working really hard for each other.

Definitely.

I was sat with a mate last night and I commented that it was a lot like watching Rafa's Valencia.

At Valencia they never gave up on anything, swarming all over the opposition and giving them no time to think. We've seen this from Rafa's Liverpool before, most noticeably the Arsenal game in his first season when Mellor got the last minute winner. Around the time of that game Benitez commented that that was how he wanted us to play but he didn't have the squad to go at teams for 90 minutes game after game after game. It requires an incredibly fit squad to play like that. A handful of games into the season and we're playing like that consistently. The first criteria to get into Benitez's team is that you've got to be capable of putting in the hard yards. If one player isn't doing his bit then we lose the advantage in terms of team effort.

Benitez is a known fan of the Milan side of the 90's. Whilst they played some outstanding football the truely phenomenal part of their play was their consistent work rate. Players like Donadoni, Massarro etc maybe weren't the greatest players of their era but they worked harder than others.

It's good times for us.

[Leonmc0708]

I think you are under estimating Rafa's intelligence.

[ivor_the_injun]

I'm not worried at all to be honest. Last night the only real surprise for me in the starting lineup was Leto, but otherwise I thought it was a strong 11 out there.

The good thing for me right now is that any combination of our players right now come into the 11 are looking like they've played together for ages. The interpassing yesterday was a joy at times, and Sissoko did a very convincing impersonation of a smooth short passing midfielder in an Alonso vein.

It looks like Benayoun has struck up good understandings with his teammates on the training pitch, as he and Arbeloa looked like they'd been working the right hand side together for years.

That's the difference this season. Maybe before, Rafa has rotated to the point where nobody knows exactly where their teammates are, but now most of the passes are hitting feet, the shape of the side is solid right across the pitch, and we look very, very comfortable in possession.

I hear where Mick's coming from in that Sunderland and Toulouse have been very weak opposition, but if anything I think that's been a plus, as its enabled slightly different lineups to almost play training-ground football in games that matter. 

Rafa's not soft, and last night's bench confirms that. He'll have whoever's in the team bang up for Derby at the weekend, and I don't think for a second that anyone at the club will be expecting us to put 4 past every team in the Prem this season.

[Sabre]

At Valencia they never gave up on anything, swarming all over the opposition and giving them no time to think.

Oh come on, let's drop the Valencia myth, Rafa was impressed on Alonso after being defeated home and away by a lower team with Alonso in it's ranks. Effective they were, some impressive games in Europe they did, but they were beatable, as any team of the league. I don't see invincible teams in my country since  the times I had not pubic hair.

FWIW we defend better as a team than Valencia did. Far better.

[Ade]

We are starting to take shape I think as in the way Valencia played constantly houding the oppo to retrieve possession, the team are working really hard for each other.

Exactly. They were a tough team to play against, and I think we're heading that way.

I agree with Mick's post, mostly - I'm not a fan of rotation, but the irony is that rotation is dangerous when you've got a good first team and little strength in depth (story of our last two seasons), cos you weaken your side when you rotate. And it's also dangerous when you've got the strength in depth too - cos you've got so many quality players itching to play, and a rift can open up between those who are obviously first choice and 'the others'.

It's a tightrope for a manager to walk, but with our large squad that's what Rafa prefers to do. It ain't gonna change. But what is our first choice team now? With the strength we've got (to my mind we now have the best squad in the league), Reina, Finnan, Carra, Stevie and Torres are first choice, but is Riise ahead of Aurelio, is Alonso better than Masch, is it Pennant or Benayoun out right, and is a fit Kewell ahead of Babel? Kuyt is probably ahead of Crouch and Voronin, but there's enough of a question mark to justify the horses for courses approach.

So I agree with Mick, in principle, but there are a lot of places that aren't nailed down now, due to the strength in depth.

[Bad Bob]

But what is our first choice team now? With the strength we've got (to my mind we now have the best squad in the league), Reina, Finnan, Carra, Stevie and Torres are first choice, but is Riise ahead of Aurelio, is Alonso better than Masch, is it Pennant or Benayoun out right, and is a fit Kewell ahead of Babel? Kuyt is probably ahead of Crouch and Voronin, but there's enough of a question mark to justify the horses for courses approach.

A very, very good point.  "Play your best 11" is the anti-rotationist's cry but we've always had difficulty identifying that team and that problem's just got harder (in a good way) this season. 

[heimdall]

But what is our first choice team now? With the strength we've got (to my mind we now have the best squad in the league), Reina, Finnan, Carra, Stevie and Torres are first choice, but is Riise ahead of Aurelio, is Alonso better than Masch, is it Pennant or Benayoun out right, and is a fit Kewell ahead of Babel? Kuyt is probably ahead of Crouch and Voronin, but there's enough of a question mark to justify the horses for courses approach.

A very, very good point.  "Play your best 11" is the anti-rotationist's cry but we've always had difficulty identifying that team and that problem's just got harder (in a good way) this season. 

As long as Crouch isn't in the team we have the strongest 11 

[Ola Mr Benitez]

I think it was a great decision to rotate last night.  I have never (well maybe?) seen a Liverpool team work so hard.  Even when we had comfortably qualified, all the players where chasing lost causes, swarming over thier players when they had te ball. 

Why??

Maybe because they all know if you want to get picked for the next game you need to show Rafa how important you are to the team.

Now, he probably will change the team for the next game, but the teams he has put out in the Premiership haven't changed too much.  This week we know Gerrard and Carragher will not play, but I get a feeling the rest of the team will not be too different to that which played against Sunderland.

[AB's Red Army]

I'm worried about our lack of clinical finishing. Despite our 4-0 win, both Kuyt and Crouch missed several sitters through out the game.

They won't get fifteen clear cut opportunities before they actually score week in and week out.

[kunilson]

well i didnt see rafa's Valencia week in week out so i won't comment on that......but i will say is that we do look very much sharper when it comes to our attacking style. whoever is on the pitch, we are linking passes together very well, i remember against chelsea from around 55-60 odd minutes we were playing some fantastic one touch football which was brilliant to watch. last season the lack of creativity was a major problem, in both the midfield and attack and misery loves company innit?

but it seems we play with more intent now, and this is from what ive seen SO FAR. this can of course be different when we go thru a bad patch, but i felt that at the beginning of last season the "spine" of the team was not clicking and we had to rely on the other players and new signings to settle in quicktime. which obviously didnt happen.....if anything this good period we are having now is helping the new boys settle in much better so when times do get hard, they will be well-conditioned to step up to the plate and help us out when it matters.


all of that ^ without mentioning rotation? well ive always thought small changes are no problem but lots of rotation can be a problem like most(i think) on here. we've got away with it with lesser teams so far but rafa knows what has happened before and id like to think he knows when to tinker that much and when not to. not much new to say i guess...


it will be a nice to change to see how rafa and his team handle being at the top of the pack without trying to make up lost ground....we'll be in for a different ride this season thats for sure.

[ivor_the_injun]

I'm worried about our lack of clinical finishing. Despite our 4-0 win, both Kuyt and Crouch missed several sitters through out the game.

They won't get fifteen clear cut opportunities before they actually score week in and week out.

It'll come. They'll always probably need more chances than Henry or Drogba to get their goals, but it's early season, and the encouraging thing for me is that they are getting in the right places.

I predict that we'll have a game at some point this season where we absolutely maul the opposition - a 7, 8 or 9-0 victory. It really could've been double figures last night. In the meantime, dominating and coming out with 1-0 or 2-1 wins is absolutely fine by me.