Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

I don't know when the next int'l break is, but it would be interesting to see who we play afterwards, whether it is home, away and when the kick off time is.

After the next international break we play

1. Everton away
2. early kick off

The same happened last season and we were terrible.

Just checked it too, here are the others:


Man U have Villa away - 5:15pm kick off

Chelsea have Middlesbrough away - 3:00pm kick off

Arsenal have Bolton at home - 3:00pm kick off


I guess we have the worst of it again.

Having said that, I expect us to be far more balanced and performing to a much higher standard, and undoubtedly Gerrard, Torres and probably Kuyt will start.


In the meantime, we have the UCL, and a string of PL games that we should be looking to take maximum points from.

[bigmick]

The hysterical delirium that greeted the hiding we dished out to a very poor Derby was a precursor to the very thing that's happening on this forum now.

Totaly agree with that St Mick. There was hysterical delerium following the Derby win which is precisely why I brought up this old thread. If you read the opening post of it, you will see that far from being a surprise, what has happened since was entirely on the cards.

  AB said we played "practially the same side" against Sunderland which we did, apart from Torres of course. Is that significant? Well it's a matter of opinion I suppose but my feeling is that it probably is.

LFc makes the point that it isn't as safe an assumption as many are making out that if one of Gerrard, Kuyt or Torres would have played, that we would have won the game. I certainly don't think it's safe to assume that we would have won the game, but my feeling is that particularly with either Gerrard or Torres we probably would have.

Anyways, fortunately it's not done us any lasting damage. We'll have to disagree on whether or not what we saw was selectorial silliness, or whether or not the fact that the 23 year old Torres got to sit on his erse for an hour rather than take part in the entire 90 mins of a football match will have an impact on a game later in the season but whatever.

Moving forward, I hope we consider when picking the team that Away from home, however good we think our squad is we are going to have to pick somewhere near to our best team if we are going to win at most grounds.

[Ace Ventura]

Personally i think it was a wasted oppurtunity and we were fortunate to get the point.
I said earlier in this thread Rafa should pick our best 11 win this game then rest players against Porto.
We want the title. Make no mistake we were lucky to escape with a point but for wayward finishing by Utaka and Muntari.
How he didnt start Torres and Gerrard is a mystery to me because as again i have said in other threads Torres allows us to cause so many more problems. Crouch did what he could today but playing him as our furtherst forward striker stops us stretching the opposition and allows them to play higher up the pitch. Campbell and Distan must of been made up they never had to worry about the ball over the top.
When our two big names (and i hate saying that, as we are a team) came on, we looked a threat.
A point at Portsmouth is ok, not a setback but i feel we could have taken all three. Then with Birmingham home and Wigan away we could of put serious pressure on the others.
Thankfully Chelsea dropped points again.
Although Arsenal look good, i still think they will faulter and our main rivals will be obviously United and Chelsea.
Please Rafa next tough game get the best team on the pitch, get the game won, then worry about resting players.

[The Grudge]

I have a theory!

Unless its the last 3 matches of the season.
If you are away and if not playing one of the three last teams in the table ..PUT THE FUC>KING BEST SIDE OUT YOU CAN RAFFA!

Worry about the next game be it Porto away or Birmingham at home when its there!


At home he can mess about a bit thats OK because we can win with a weaker team...Today was suicide by Raffa at such a place that is Fratton Park..bad management equalled a bad result!

[AB's Red Army]

I think that Benitez views Porto as our strongest rivals in the group stages, and one of the most difficult games away from home.

It backfired on him this time, but at the same time the players didn't give a good account of themselves either. There needs to be some blame put on them as well.

[The Manhattan Project]

We were playing at midday wearing white socks.

No wonder we didn't win.

[RedorDead]

As I was explaioning to Lynds earlier in the rotation thread, it really does my head in when people spout the same old sh#te week in week out with little regard for what mitigating factors could be affecting the managers decision. It seems to me that certain posters refuse to take a pragmatic or objective view of team selections and instead choose to adopt a highly critical view of Rafa, instaed of criticising the players who just didn't produce anything like what they're capable of.

My views on this subject are pretty much known to everyone, nobody is above criticism least of all Rafa, but the fact remains, the 11 players we fielded today where more than capable of winning the game. Too many players either had an off day today. I don't think James had a shot to save in the second half, however if Voronin had got his toe to that one near the end we wouldn't even be having this conversation andf everything would still be hunky dory.

The hysterical delirium that greeted the hiding we dished out to a very poor Derby was a precursor to the very thing that's happening on this forum now. Perspective is the name of the game. FFS, we're still ahead of Man U and Chelsea in the table with a game in hand and we've got some favourable fixtures coming up against the likes of Birmingham and Wigan.

Chelsea dropped two more points today. More points will be taken off the top 4 this season than in any other season. It's not the end of the world.

I couldn't agree more with this.
I just logged off yesterday afternoon because some of the people on here were just winding me up too much. I just don't know what goes on in some people's brains...they sure as hell don't make any sense.
I completely accept the point that Rafa fielded a "weakened" team and PERHAPS with our "best" 11 we might have sneaked a goal against Pompey but I personally think our side was more than good enough to win. People harp on about rotation policy but I honestly don't think it was a matter of rotation poilicy today.
The back five was the best we hada and Xabi and Pennant are starters anyway. Gerrard has played against Chelsea and then two England internationals with a broken toe and with the Champions League coming up on tuesday it is no wonder he was rested. Sissoko was the only choice to allow that rest, Masch had been away with Argentina and there is no way he could have played.
Benayoun on the left is also perfectly acceptable to me, he is creative and on the occasions he has played this season he has done superbly.
That just leaves up front. I admit that it is a little unclear why Kuyt didn't make the 16 but Torres was apparently carrying a knock and had also played two internationals in a week so why not save him for the long hard and hopefully successful season ahead?
Crouch has been our top goal scorer over the last couple of years and Voronin has done well this season so why not give them a crack?
People have to accept that when you play 60 games in a season lasting 8 months you cannot play your "best" eleven every game....every season it is stated that the top four have the best SQUADS and that is why they do so well, why have a squad of depth and quality if you're not going to use it?
Rafa has adopted a rotation policy the last few seasons and I agree that it has been detrimental to results however he has shown signs of settling on a prefferred eleven this season, playing Gerrard with a broken toe shows that he wants his best players playing whenever he can but there are times when he has to be a little more pragmatic and rest his star players.....we should still have beaten Pompey and the team played had more than enouh quality, they just didn't perform.
It is one result, and really not a bad result at that, I wish people would just take a breath before spouting rubbish about Rafa losing it and costing us two points blah blah blah!

[bigmick]

I said a couple of weeks ago I was worried this would happen and hopefully now it has, we can revert to common sense. For the seven million, two hundred and fourteen thousand, six hundred and third time THIS DOESN'T MEAN PICKING THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. I'm going to repeat that, THIS DOESN'T MEAN PICKING THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Whatever the number is in this post, there is one more to go top of it. I am not saying we should play the same team in every game. Never ever ever ever have I or anybody who has a modicum of intelligence or knowledge, advocated playing the same team in every game.

People who get exasperated with us "anti-rotationalists" would do well to remember that it is equally galling to be constantly misinterpeted. It's a couple of pages since anybody has thrown in the "I remember when we first used zonal marking, people slagged that but you don't hear from them now do you?" line. The fact that this particular "anti-rotationalist" was a fervent defender of the system, and one who took the trouble to debate the theory and reassure those who were being misinformed on a weekly basis by Andy Gray is irrelevent, it frequently gets thrown into the mix. I am not, never have and never will be advocating playing the same team every week. The debate is much more complex than that.

[bigmick]

People have to accept that when you play 60 games in a season lasting 8 months you cannot play your "best" eleven every game....

Just to make myself clear, this is where I feel sometimes people like me are misinterpreted. Just because I am of the opinion that the team selection yesterday was at fault and contributed to our muted performance, it doesn't mean I think we should play the same team in every single game.

As an illustration of where I think the selection was as fault, lets pick an outfield player at random and start with the left full back, Arbeloa. He's played pretty much every game so far (maybe it's every game I don't write such things down) and he's done pretty well in my view. Lets consider what he's had in front of him when he recieves the ball and looks up. Mostly he's had Riise.

Riise would be happy to come to him to recieve the ball, to come in off his flank and play a one two and let Arbeloa use his engine to get beyond the play. Risse would be closed down as a matter of course by opponents who would be wary of giving him an opportunity to shoot, and in so doing Arbeloa would have more freedom to move forward. Riise would rarely move inside with the ball onto his right foot, meaning that Arbeloa would like as not when going forward make his run with Riise in his sights, providing him with "security" should posession be lost. On the occasions the Norwegian didn't play, he would have had Babel much of the time.

Beyond Riise, when Arbeloa would have been recieving the ball say off Reina, he would have had Torres marauding down the channel, waiting for the ball into space. Inside him, he would have had Gerrard beyond Alonso, one looking for it square while the other is coming to and from him in a kind of "rotational" movement, looking to recieve it and inject some pace into the play.

What did he have yesterday? Well, he had Benayoun, almost diametricly opposite to riise in that firstly he likes to recieve the ball inside rather than outside, secondly having recieved it nine times out of ten he heads to his right, thirdly he doesn't have the shot of Riise but does have more creativity so would be defended against differently, and fourthly, as he vacates his starting position more readily and posesses less defensive abilities, he would provide less "assurance" to a player who wants to get forward like Arbeloa. Inside him, he still has Alonso looking for it square, but now he has Sissoko who though being a superb player, is entirely different to Gerrard in the way he recieves the ball. Up top? Well up top he no longer has the outball he's been using effectively every week. He now has not one but two big fellas who are looking for him to hit them from thirty five yards away, not into space but into the body.

Now if I'm Arbeloa, I'm feeling a little differently about this game than I was against Villa and Chelsea. We might have replaced players with quality players, but they are very different. If Gerrard is unfit to play (and he probably was borderlione to be fair) then Sissoko is going to replace him and it's fair enough. Arbeloa can deal with that I'm sure, but perhaps we could leave him with the outball of Torres? Perhaps we could play him with a left sided partner with whom he has played before in the Premiership? NO? Well if we can't, lets not be too surprised when the team lacks its usual fluency. Lets not be surprised when we look a bit toothless.

It's a complex argument, about a complex situation and you could go into the whys and the wherefors of every single position. Nobody is saying play the same team in every single game, just give the playes a chance is all I ask.

[Wilhelmsson]

I think that Benitez views Porto as our strongest rivals in the group stages, and one of the most difficult games away from home.

It backfired on him this time, but at the same time the players didn't give a good account of themselves either. There needs to be some blame put on them as well.

There seems to be two camps on this forum, a camp for those who believe it is a sin to criticise Rafa period and those who are overly critical of Rafa.

Your point is a valid one, the team did not give a good account of themselves yesterday afternoon, as I have said the team was fortunate not to lose all three points and I didn’t feel we deserved anything more than a point.

Rafa has always said he focuses on each passing game, we’ll he has contradicted himself if he selected a side with the Porto game in mind. Alan Hansen made a point last night on MOTD about how Fergie and Wenger will make a majority of their rotational changes at home against the smaller clubs. This is a valid point and a reasonable one too; Portsmouth’s are a difficult side, which is why it’s important to play the best eleven players against them.

Alan Hansen also made another point about the possibility of resting key players against Birmingham. With no disrespect to Birmingham, a team selection similar to yesterdays one should be more than enough to see off the challenge of BC. I support rotation, but not when it’s abused like yesterdays. A team cannot expect to go to Fratton Park (a fortress in its own right) and collect maximum points with relative ease.

One last point, if certain players are suffering from fatigue this early on in the campaign then several questions need to be asked and addressed. Arsenal, MU and Chelsea played with strong teams’ yesterday afternoon. If players such as Tevez, Ronaldo, Van Persie, Fabregas, Terry and Kalou (who I presume) played one or two NT matches this week and played yesterday then why couldn’t Babel, Gerrard and Torres play against Portsmouth?

[RedorDead]

People have to accept that when you play 60 games in a season lasting 8 months you cannot play your "best" eleven every game....

Just to make myself clear, this is where I feel sometimes people like me are misinterpreted. Just because I am of the opinion that the team selection yesterday was at fault and contributed to our muted performance, it doesn't mean I think we should play the same team in every single game.

As an illustration of where I think the selection was as fault, lets pick an outfield player at random and start with the left full back, Arbeloa. He's played pretty much every game so far (maybe it's every game I don't write such things down) and he's done pretty well in my view. Lets consider what he's had in front of him when he recieves the ball and looks up. Mostly he's had Riise.

Riise would be happy to come to him to recieve the ball, to come in off his flank and play a one two and let Arbeloa use his engine to get beyond the play. Risse would be closed down as a matter of course by opponents who would be wary of giving him an opportunity to shoot, and in so doing Arbeloa would have more freedom to move forward. Riise would rarely move inside with the ball onto his right foot, meaning that Arbeloa would like as not when going forward make his run with Riise in his sights, providing him with "security" should posession be lost. On the occasions the Norwegian didn't play, he would have had Babel much of the time.

Beyond Riise, when Arbeloa would have been recieving the ball say off Reina, he would have had Torres marauding down the channel, waiting for the ball into space. Inside him, he would have had Gerrard beyond Alonso, one looking for it square while the other is coming to and from him in a kind of "rotational" movement, looking to recieve it and inject some pace into the play.

What did he have yesterday? Well, he had Benayoun, almost diametricly opposite to riise in that firstly he likes to recieve the ball inside rather than outside, secondly having recieved it nine times out of ten he heads to his right, thirdly he doesn't have the shot of Riise but does have more creativity so would be defended against differently, and fourthly, as he vacates his starting position more readily and posesses less defensive abilities, he would provide less "assurance" to a player who wants to get forward like Arbeloa. Inside him, he still has Alonso looking for it square, but now he has Sissoko who though being a superb player, is entirely different to Gerrard in the way he recieves the ball. Up top? Well up top he no longer has the outball he's been using effectively every week. He now has not one but two big fellas who are looking for him to hit them from thirty five yards away, not into space but into the body.

Now if I'm Arbeloa, I'm feeling a little differently about this game than I was against Villa and Chelsea. We might have replaced players with quality players, but they are very different. If Gerrard is unfit to play (and he probably was borderlione to be fair) then Sissoko is going to replace him and it's fair enough. Arbeloa can deal with that I'm sure, but perhaps we could leave him with the outball of Torres? Perhaps we could play him with a left sided partner with whom he has played before in the Premiership? NO? Well if we can't, lets not be too surprised when the team lacks its usual fluency. Lets not be surprised when we look a bit toothless.

It's a complex argument, about a complex situation and you could go into the whys and the wherefors of every single position. Nobody is saying play the same team in every single game, just give the playes a chance is all I ask.

Mick, you always make pretty sound arguments and your opinion is well respected (by this poster anyway) but I am not having a go at "anti-rotationists"
My real gripe is with people who just jump onto this word "rotation" and blame it for all our woes.
I said before and I will say again that yesterday in particular was not really about rotation, not like it was last season week in and week out. Rafa has demonstrated already this season that he has a preffered eleven and will play it when able but yesterday his had was forced. Perhaps he made one change too many but Gerrard was not 100% fit, nor was Torres by all accounts. I was a liitle confused by the omission of Kuyt and also Riise but there were preety good and replacements in Crouch and Benayoun. I think Riise was dropped because with Gerrard out you need that spark of creativity and Yossi provides that where Riise is far more methodical and workman-like in his play.
I belive rotation has it's place in the modern game, with so many games, so many (pointless) international breaks and stiff competition on all fronts you need a big squad...I do however readily accept that stability is also required and relationships between players should be encouraged and built upon.
Like you say Mick it is complicated and there are always times when either approach is more suitable....you and I seem to understand that, I just get annoyed with the rash comments of some who seem to see black and white in EVERYTHING. Football and it's tactics especially are NOT BLACK AND WHITE and Rafa knows this better than anyone on this forum.

[RedorDead]

There seems to be two camps on this forum, a camp for those who believe it is a sin to criticise Rafa period and those who are overly critical of Rafa.

Like I said, too many people are at these two extreme ends and that is why most topics on here end up as a slagging match.
Rafa is most certainly not immune from criticism and he does make mistakes with regards to selection in particular but those occasions are rare having a squad of the quality we do now and for me he is still tactically the best manager in Europe.
Some people need to remember that we are very fortunate to have him as our manager and I for one hope that he leads us for many many years to come.

[Scottbot]

Chelsea dropped two more points today. More points will be taken off the top 4 this season than in any other season. It's not the end of the world.

That's true it isn't the end of the world but with thoses two games we have coming up it was very very likely that we would and could have been looking at another month + the international break sitting at the top of the tree. That for me would have been a MASSIVE shot in the arm for the this side, same as it will be for Arsenal if they can keep themselves up there.

[Ace Ventura]

I think that Benitez views Porto as our strongest rivals in the group stages, and one of the most difficult games away from home.

It backfired on him this time, but at the same time the players didn't give a good account of themselves either. There needs to be some blame put on them as well.

I see what your saying, Porto will be a tough game and obviously Rafa had one eye on that but we want the league.
It was bizarre to leave out players of the calibre of Gerrard and Torres for what was always going to be one of the most difficult fixtures of the season. Why not play them both in BOTH games then not play them at home to Birmingham or the week after away at Wigan ?
One other thing Arbeloa has played EVERY game so far this season, yes he hasnt been on international duty but still he has been selected in every game.
Surely they (Gerrard & Torres) could of played in this massive game ?

[66-1112520797]

Is that significant? Well it's a matter of opinion I suppose but my feeling is that it probably is.

Is 21 million pounds significant ?

You decide.