Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

The notion has been that cohesiveness and fluency have always required lots of time and games, but now after a few wins, apparantly we have it?? I

Not totally we dont, but the recent run of games has helped dont get me wrong. Rafa I think has helped also by picking this formation and using it. Before this run we were dire and looked well well out of sorts, whether by stroke of luck or genius Rafa tried something and it appears we've struck Gold. Now what I'm saying is, Rafa has found some form in the team, stick with it dont start using 4-4-2, or introducing Kuyt or Voronin back upfront.

Okay the perfromances for you have been laboured in parts and in some cases I'd agree, notably Boro. But against Inter, West Ham and Bolton second half we've looked better. Plus we're wininng, like you said Chelsea are grinding out results, Man U are apparently lacking endeveour and Arsenal look tired. But you probably wont here to many of their supporters moaning as long as their still wininng. Oky we've looked laboured at times, but looked good at others and we're currently on a good little run.

[maguskwt]

The reality is though (and we won't finish within six points I wouldn't have thought but we'll run it anyhow) that our current run into form, or at least current run of wins (as I'm still a bit underwhelmed by our play but that's OK, we'll improve with a settled team    ) has been built on the back of precisely what some of us have talked about for four years. It's incredible really that when the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long and it so obviously works, some people seem to be of the opinion that that makes us wrong 

Don't get me wrong mick, but I'm getting confused... during our early season we were rotating exactly like now albeit with a 4-4-2... we were rotating our wingers, second striker and between alonso and masch with the spine mainly in tact... but I never heard from the anti-rotationists something to the effect of what you said just now that "the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long"... in fact it was something along the line of the least amount of change he makes the better...

for me it's the formation and not the change in rafa's rotation pattern...

[bigmick]

I'm probably one of the few on here that doesn't think we've performed especially well over our recent run, yes we've won and thats great, but in long periods we've still laboured. Its been the form of Torres and Gerrard and Mascherano that has put a veneer on our efforts. The notion has been that cohesiveness and fluency have always required lots of time and games, but now after a few wins, apparantly we have it?? I agree that we persisted far too long with Kuyt up front (if thats where he played), but there must be a reason for this ( i'm fcked if i know why), Rafa doesn't come across as a manager who does things without indepth deliberating.

IMO the draws in games we were winning and controlling is where we've really fallen behind and that had very little to do with the ills of rotation, because we probably performing aswell during those games as now, the overuse of Hyypia and failing to get a cover CB and G&H's disruption (IF you don't believe it affected the Players, you must concede it affected Rafa) have dented our chances far more than rotating.

I agree 100% with the first part of your post mate. It's also worth remembering for those who claim to be right, be they "delayed Gazellers" or "anti rotationists", we have been in the midst of a string of very winnable games. I've found our play a bit stop start, and as an ardent anti rotationer I've been a little disappointed that we haven't managed to strike up more partnerships of the like of the Gerrard/Torres axis. I agree that the team has much improving to do, rotated or not and I suspect we'll need to play a lot better than we have been if we are going to stay unbeaten during our difficult run, never mind win many of the games.

That said i've liked the way we've started to learn how to win. I like the confidence that we'll eke it out which the players obviously have. Hardly a poster on here expected us to lose in Milan so it's obviously filtering through to the fans as well. We probably need a really huge result somewhere just to give us that extra "icing on the cake" belief. Should we go to Old Trafford for instance with the same system and win, then you'd really see the players start ot grow. It'll come, but it will take time. Also intersting to see will b the reaction the next time we have a bad result. If anybody looks at our record this season, we've lost it becasue our defeats have turned into bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiips. I really believe that it's not just the consistency which improves with this lack of silly rotation, but i think and hope it'll give us much more "bouncebackability" as well. It's the first time we've tried it under Rafa, so we'll see.

[66-1112520797]

I'm absolutely full of optimism now, I just hope the manager isn't fooling us with this new found coimmon sense, only to revert to his worst excesses at the start of next season.

Well see thats my worry, Rafa has done it before and he did it again this season, claiming that after three or four games into the season certain players needed resting He has doen this twice in the two recent seasons at the begining and I'm not holding my breath for next. Whuch is one of the reasons I think it could be time for Rafa to go, as he doesnt seem to acknowledge when hes done something wrong, and more woorying when hes done somthin right ala play Crouch in form, he decides to tinker with it and inevitably f.uck it up.

[bigmick]

The reality is though (and we won't finish within six points I wouldn't have thought but we'll run it anyhow) that our current run into form, or at least current run of wins (as I'm still a bit underwhelmed by our play but that's OK, we'll improve with a settled team    ) has been built on the back of precisely what some of us have talked about for four years. It's incredible really that when the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long and it so obviously works, some people seem to be of the opinion that that makes us wrong 

Don't get me wrong mick, but I'm getting confused... during our early season we were rotating exactly like now albeit with a 4-4-2... we were rotating our wingers, second striker and between alonso and masch with the spine mainly in tact... but I never heard from the anti-rotationists something to the effect of what you said just now that "the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long"... in fact it was something along the line of the least amount of change he makes the better...

for me it's the formation and not the change in rafa's rotation pattern...

Magus we did this earlier in either this thread or another one I'm not sure. I tried then but I'll have another go.

Torres is playing on his own up top every single game. Gerrard is playing in behind him every single game. Behind those two, Masherano is playing every single game, and Alonso every single game available. Kuyt is playing wide right mnidfield every single game bar one I think, ditto Babel wide left (I didn't agree with them getting rotated/rested when they did, but at least we have returned to exactly the same front six as our first choice, in every game bar one I think. We have played 4-5-1 in every single game.

In defence, Carragher switched to right back once or twice, which allowed Skyrtel to come in and get a game. Aurelio is firmly established as first choice left back, Arbeloa as first choice right back. The goalkeeper obviously has stayed the same.

The manager has said that he is, and it's his intention to rotate less as we're only involved in two competitions. I believe him. His current first choice team, is Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher, Skyrtel, Aurelio, Babel, Kuyt, Alonso, Masherano, Gerrard and Torres.

Now if you think we aren't rotating less than we were earlier in the season, we are making the same number of changes to personel, formations and the positions which personel were playing in as we were earlier in the season, then you are entitled to your opinion. If you are correct, the manager is also lying.

I have to say to you though, I think you are mistaken, stark raving bonkers, or both       

[JoeTerp]

Big Mick, I think what will be important to limiting the rotations in the early part of the season is not buying players like Lucas or babel who have quality and are around 20 or so with some experience not much and just need to "settle in" Its got to only be players in the Torres ilk and nothing more, or else Rafa will be tempted to see what he's got and get them adapted to the league. Heck, even by the start of next season Babel and Lucas might not be fully adapted after a season. The squad needs a bit of trimming and we need to only bring in obvious 1st team replacements or bring in people telling them they will simply be used for cover. and just to make my point clear I still think we should scour latin america and eastern europe for U18 talent

If there is little question about who the 1st choice Right winger is next season and the fit perfect with 4-2-3-1 (if thats what rafa chooses to play) then there will be just as much rotation of that player as there is with stevie or Nando (which was only twice and WELLLL before he established himself as the player that he is now)

[KennyisGod....still]

I also expect some female LFC fans at pitchside to get their norks out to distract Arsenal's players, although I doubt that will work on Fabregas.[/b]

Thats a coupla games to be taped then!!     

[KennyisGod....still]

I dont see us winnin the title, but i see us havin an impact on it. Strangely it could be the chavs who benefit most from our games with the mancs and arsenal. However, if those games go our way and chelsea drop a few points then I'm more than happy to come back and say I was oh so wrong!!

[Sabre]

Well it's mathematically impossible we win the premiership under Rafa's methods as we have learned by several respected members so we really shouldn't having this debate.

Another reason to not have this debate is that whenever Liverpool FC think of the title rather than the next game Liverpool start failing. So let's just debate the next game, it's a jinx talking about the title.

But if you insist on having this debate, I think that it's very unlikely we challenge for the title this season. Although it's possible that if we do well and the gazelles effect keeps working we might end up again in another final and 5 points away the title.

[maypaxvobiscum]

*scums fixtures*
bolton - h
liverpool - h
villa - h
boro - a
arsenal - h
blackburn - a
chelsea - a
west ham - h
wigan - a
(if they lose at arsenal, liverpool, chelsea, and villa or blackburn does the world a favour, they would lose 13 points so they end the season with 81 points)

*arsenal fixtures*
chelsea - a
bolton - a
liverpool - h
scums - a
reading - h
derby - a
everton - h
sunderland - a
(lose against chelsea, liverpool, everton and thats 9 points so they end the season with 82 points)

*chelsea fixtures*
spurs - a
arsenal - h
boro - h
man city - a
wigan - h
everton - a
scums - h
newcastle - a
bolton - h
(lose to liverpool, man city, spurs, draw with everton and newcastle so thats 13 points gone so they end the season with 78)

so we have to win all games. thus the table would look like this:

liverpool - 83
arsenal - 82
scums- 81
chelsea - 78

[maguskwt]

The reality is though (and we won't finish within six points I wouldn't have thought but we'll run it anyhow) that our current run into form, or at least current run of wins (as I'm still a bit underwhelmed by our play but that's OK, we'll improve with a settled team    ) has been built on the back of precisely what some of us have talked about for four years. It's incredible really that when the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long and it so obviously works, some people seem to be of the opinion that that makes us wrong 

Don't get me wrong mick, but I'm getting confused... during our early season we were rotating exactly like now albeit with a 4-4-2... we were rotating our wingers, second striker and between alonso and masch with the spine mainly in tact... but I never heard from the anti-rotationists something to the effect of what you said just now that "the manager finally decides to adopt the policy which some of us have banged on about for so long"... in fact it was something along the line of the least amount of change he makes the better...

for me it's the formation and not the change in rafa's rotation pattern...

Magus we did this earlier in either this thread or another one I'm not sure. I tried then but I'll have another go.

Torres is playing on his own up top every single game. Gerrard is playing in behind him every single game. Behind those two, Masherano is playing every single game, and Alonso every single game available. Kuyt is playing wide right mnidfield every single game bar one I think, ditto Babel wide left (I didn't agree with them getting rotated/rested when they did, but at least we have returned to exactly the same front six as our first choice, in every game bar one I think. We have played 4-5-1 in every single game.

In defence, Carragher switched to right back once or twice, which allowed Skyrtel to come in and get a game. Aurelio is firmly established as first choice left back, Arbeloa as first choice right back. The goalkeeper obviously has stayed the same.

The manager has said that he is, and it's his intention to rotate less as we're only involved in two competitions. I believe him. His current first choice team, is Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher, Skyrtel, Aurelio, Babel, Kuyt, Alonso, Masherano, Gerrard and Torres.

Now if you think we aren't rotating less than we were earlier in the season, we are making the same number of changes to personel, formations and the positions which personel were playing in as we were earlier in the season, then you are entitled to your opinion. If you are correct, the manager is also lying.

I have to say to you though, I think you are mistaken, stark raving bonkers, or both       

I'm not disputing the fact that rafa is rotating less now especially when we are no longer in the FA cup and league cup which is something "as obvious as the nose on one's face"... nor am I saying he's a liar...because what he said is true... what I'm saying is that he has rotated in similar style like this before in stretches especially in our first 2 months of this season...you can refer to bad bob's (it might be someone else) analyses with the line ups if one can bother enough to dig up the older rotation thread with hundreds of pages...if you just look at our league line ups we only rotated our wingers and second striker... and we had a consistent spine... just like now... and strangely enough there weren't any claims like now... all i heard was the least amount of changes the better, the domino effect, the knock on effect, all of those kind of philosophies... but now that we're stringing 7 wins together, we have claims like this is the way rafa should rotate... or that rafa's not rotating "rafa style" anymore or that rafa's now rotating like "fergie style"...

what I'm saying is rafa has been consistent in his philosophy... who is to say that once we are in 4 competitions again next season he wouldn't rotate more? this is not to say that he is fault less or that rotation has no negative effects. The negative effects that we had and the underperformance that we had is rather due to the type of players we had in combination with rafa over-analysing our premiership lesser opponents as well as the incompatibility of our weaker players with some of the tactics and formations rafa deployed. And for all of these rafa has to take responsibility.

All I'm saying is this rotation thing is slightly overblown... and that the way we're stringing wins now has much more to do with the formation we're deploying now which makes use of the best players we have now and which is more forgiving than 4-4-2 when it comes to rotating our inexperienced players and/or one-dimensional players...and since it is more forgiving, we might at last see more of the positive effects of rotation... and maybe rotation might just work in the premier league who knows...

so forgive me but I don't buy into those "now that rafa's been doing what we anti-rotation brigade EXACTLY means we're finally seeing the results" comments... because it simply has to do with much more than rotation...

[KennyisGod....still]

I feel we have found a formation that both suits our players and pleases the manager, and if its taken 4 years then so be it. We now stand a chance of makin a good impact on the final league table even if we cant win it ourselves.

The rotation thing has beena constant form of both humorous and vitriolic discussion, but if we move forward usin similar players and a settled formation then I see no reason why evry1 cant be happy. One thing tho...... another keeper plz cuz we simply cannot afford to rotate Reina for Itandje in the league!!

Seriously, the las few weeks have seen fewer changes but changes none the less, so Rafa aint quit his rotation ideas has he? He's jus adapted them to this style and formation. If it worx til the end of the season I see no reason to change it into next, jus strengthen the team not the squad and take it from there.

[account deleted by request]

I think its time some people got a grip on reality, if we finish top 3 after the bliiip we had it will be an achievement. I can't see us finishing within 10 points of the eventual champions to be honest, but I live in some hope if results go our way.

Our last chance of the title sadly went after the Wigan match, and even the recent poor form of Arsenal (tiredness finally setting in?) hasn't changed the fact that all three teams above us would have to have disasterous results to give us the slightest hope.

4th or possibly 3rd place and a CL win is were I am concentrating my hopes, the title chase starts again next season for me.

I think we will finish with 76-79 points this season with the mancs getting around 86-89 points

[7_Kewell]

sadly our poor form in Jan has cost us dearly.  ALthough it IS possible i don't think it will happen.  I would be happy for us to finish 3rd within 6 or 7 points of the champions.

[JoeTerp]

Our absolute MAX point total is 83. This would include beating Arsenal away, everton and man u and blackburn and spurs and so on.

United would then (assuming already the loss to us and them being number 1 for the title) have to take 16 points from their next 8 and then we would have to make up 10 goals in goal difference ( beating them head to head will help   )
their schedule: (with my realistic best case senario results)
Bolton (h)            3 points
LFC (H)               0
Villa (H)              1
boro (a)               3
Arsenal (H)          1
Blackburn (A)        1
Chelsea (A)            1
West Ham (H)       3
Wigan (A)            3

That puts them on 16 points 83 for the season. If Villa don't do it at old trafford maybe boro could pull it out at the riverside or wigan kicking them to death on the last day

WHen you look at each result by itself, it isn't a crazy task, what might be crazier is thinking we can we all of our games, and I pray that is the case, meaning that we are still in a way have a hand in it.