Liverpool FC Forum

[115-1073096938]

It has been a factor, but blown out of all proportion by Kermit. Our form in the last 8 games has been patchy (13 points from a possible 24) and we have had a lot of player back since the start of that run

It is a myth manuFACTured by Kermit and his followers. IF we were missing half a team for half a season, how come so many players have managed appearances in well over half the number of games?

Just looking at our a possible first choice XI (where the replacement is not far off the first choice I've gone with the player who has played most eg Heskey over Baros, Dudek over Kirkland)

Appearances

Dudek 22/30
Carragher 14/30
Hyypia 30/30
Henchoz 14/30
Finnan 18/30
Kewell 28/30
Hamann 17/30
Gerrard 26/30
Murphy 25/30
Owen 21/30
Heskey 27/30

So Dudek, Hyypia, Kewell, Gerrard, Murphy, Owen and Heskey have been available for over 66% of the games. That is 7 out of the first XI. Henchoz has been left out of a number of games because Kermit prefers Biscan. Between them those players have 242 appearances (73.3% of appearances that 11 players could have made in 30 games)

Right firstly what your stats don't show is the fact they were all out at the same time. They are suited to your arguement which i think is wide of the mark.

Do you honestly think we wouldn't be better off if say Baros had been fit all season and Carragher? I personally think theres at least 8 points so far lost on those two players.

For the 9 games Owen has missed we haven't had Baros fit to come in and fill his boots. For 16 Carragher missed Finnan also missed 12 leaving Riise as the ONLY fit fullback in the squad. Gerrard and Hamann were missing against Chelsea at the start of the season. They are two of our best players in the most improtant part of the team.

The injuries all came at once and it caused immense disruption. Squad players are ok coming in 2's and 3's but when you have as much as 5 or 6 in one first team it is going to cost you. Especially if its over a number of games like ours where.

The other thing you conveniently overlook is the effect this has on confidence. You point out how we've only picked up 15 points out of the last 24 and yeah, that maybe right, but the injuries before hand leave you with an unsettled squad and the confidence from bad performances earlier in the clubs season sets in and i don't care who you are, if you're put into a team lacking confidence it will rub off on you aswell.

The other way off looking at it is we've only lost 3 of the last 15 playing with no confidence. That shows we aren't as bad as some would have us believe.

If we'd had all the players fit at the start and got on a good run then it would have been a different story altogether as the squad would be buzzing. Thats why Arsenal now can afford to drop players because there squad players are all so high on confidence it doesn't really matter who they put in the team they know they will perform.

The injuries this season have badly hindered us especially with them being at the start of the season. More so than just losing a few games while the players where out. Its affected there psychological state for when they come back into the side.

Also Baros is first choice, not Heskey.

[JBG]

I think that at most the injuries have cost us 8-10 points, after that its pure speculation.

Even if we were sitting safely in 4th place with 55 or 56 points now we would still be miles off the pace for the Championship.

If we claim injuries as an excuse then we'll hear the same from Newcastle, who missed Bellamy for long spells, as well as Woodgate and Dyer.

[stmichael]

don't even compare newcastles injury crisis to ours. they weren't without their two top goalscorers for 3 months of the season. without shearer they'd be just outside the relegation zone.

[JBG]

I'm not, our injury crisis has been worse than theirs, but if we start complaining about injuries then a lot of other people will start moaning about theirs as well.

[JBG]

By the way St. Michael, what do you mean about missing our top two goalscorers?

I assume you mean Owen and.........Baros?

Heskey has scored more goals than Baros per season since Baros came here!

Sometimes the hype about some of our players (Baros, Pongolle, Le Tallec, Hyppia and Steven Gerrard) completely gets out of control and has no basis in fact.

[stmichael]

owen and kewell. ok maybe it was only about a month for kewell. baros was also out at this time. we were relying on heskey to score goals.

[Owzat]

I think that at most the injuries have cost us 8-10 points, after that its pure speculation.

Even if we were sitting safely in 4th place with 55 or 56 points now we would still be miles off the pace for the Championship.

If we claim injuries as an excuse then we'll hear the same from Newcastle, who missed Bellamy for long spells, as well as Woodgate and Dyer.

You expect injuries, that our 11 best players managed 73% of the matches they could have is pretty good considering, after all, that is what a squad is for. I won't speculate on how many points it may have cost us because we may well have lost some of those games with the players available anyway, it isn't like we're unbeatable now (13 points from last 24) The presence of those players improves the quality of the side but not the quality of performance (as seen recently)

Stu - yes, I agree that the stats are fuzzy, maybe you'd like to research the games where say Owen, Gerrard and Hamann were all missing. Kermit has preferred Biscan, Carragher and Finnan are not necessarily "irreplacable", Kewell and Gerrard have played over 25 games each and the rest are fairly much inconsequential

[JBG]

The injury to Owen is not really an excuse anymore.

I have been bleating on for ages about how Owen always goes through a bad spell/injury problem every season and Houllier has never managed to put a plan B into place.

Baros, Pongolle and Heskey are simply not good enough (at least in Baros' and Pongolle's case, yet) to adequate deputise for Owen and this is borne out by results and goals scored.

People make the point that if Arsenal lost Henry and Man UTD lost RVN they would be in trouble but the real point is that these players rarely get injured whereas our top striker always seems to miss 20% of the season. Its not Owen's fault, its the managements' as we all know that Owen is injury prone.

[stmichael]

i still think next season is very pivotal for several reasons. for me i expect to see young players improving and not thinking they're better than they are. that is down to the management and the coaching.

[115-1073096938]

Owzat again you clearly miss the point.

Finnan and Carraghre aren't major losses. But if they are both out AT THE SAME TIME!!!! yes... i'll say it again in capital letters to see if it FINALLY gets through WHEN YOUR FIRST CHIOICE AND YOUR BACKUP ARE INJURED AT THE SAME TIME!!!! AGAIN.... TWO PLAYERS IN THE SAME POSITION!!! ARE INJURED AT THE SAME TIME!!! then how do you replace that?

Go on smart a#se? Your arrogance and stupidity in not being able to see this is rediculous. If Owen is out we go with Baros and Heskey and it still looks capable. If Owen and Baros are out we're with Heskey and Pongolle!! When Finnan is out Riise comes in and Carragher switches so it doesn't really weaken the side. When Finnan and Carragher are out Riise comes in and someone then has to play out of position. Your stats clearly don't show anything like the insane injuries that we've suffered.

When your players are missing at the same time you can't compete with the best. The 25% of games these players missed were all together. We were missing Henchoz, Hamann, Finnan, Kewell, Owen, Carragher and Baros at one stage.

Who plays then? at right back? Carragher? no injured... Finnan? no injured... Henchoz out of position?... no injured.... Gerrard?... no needed to hold the midfield together? Biscan? Maybe with Traore in middle? or Maybe a kid who doesn't know how to defend. The midfield consiting of Smicer, Gerrard, Murphy and Diouf, the striker force with no Owen or Baros... hmmm.

Yeah i totally agree injuries clearly aren't an excuse this season.

The fact is no-one is saying we'd have won the league had there been no injuries but we would have definately had a realistic chance of finishing 3rd if we'd just had a normal run of injuries and suspensions but the fact is it has been extremely abnormal. Newcastles has aswell to an extent but nothin like what we've suffered.

[115-1073096938]

The injury to Owen is not really an excuse anymore.

I have been bleating on for ages about how Owen always goes through a bad spell/injury problem every season and Houllier has never managed to put a plan B into place.

Baros, Pongolle and Heskey are simply not good enough (at least in Baros' and Pongolle's case, yet) to adequate deputise for Owen and this is borne out by results and goals scored.

People make the point that if Arsenal lost Henry and Man UTD lost RVN they would be in trouble but the real point is that these players rarely get injured whereas our top striker always seems to miss 20% of the season. Its not Owen's fault, its the managements' as we all know that Owen is injury prone.

No but the point is if Baros was fit we wouldn't miss Owen half as much. Baros is a more than capable player for those 20% of games Owen misses and also the games when Owen is off form but the fact is this season he's been injured aswell.

That was Houlliers plan "B".

Next season will be different. I think Cisse will be a success. Let me put it like this. Cisse comes in and is as good as Heskey was in his first season at Liverpool. He scores and creates goals and looks a threat and plays most games. Owen has a typical Michael Owen season and gets back to a bit of form. Baros has now 2 years in england and alot more experience. He could easily get you 17 goals in all compitions. If if Owen goes out injured... Cisse and Baros is still very strong. If Cisse doesn't quite hit the hights but comes in and does ok, then you still have Baros and Owen who have quality.

This season we've had to rely on Sinama who's an inexperienced kid and Heskey who simply hasn't done it for years.

[JBG]

With respect Stu I'm a big fan of Baros and I think that he will prove to be a shrewd signing by Gerard Houllier.

However, I still don't think he's up to carrying the can for Liverpool yet. Hopefully next year we will see him fit and I predict good things ahead for him.

However, surely Houllier must realise that you can't have an emerging but largely unproven player (Baros), a guy in serious decline (Heskey) and a completely rough and raw youngster (Pongolle) as his back up for Owen.

It goes to the whole problem with Houllier's Liverpool. McAllister and Litmannen were great to have in our squad as they filled the gaps when others were injured and they helped the team massively with their experience. Now the club is full of young foreign players who are a bit intimidated when they are thrown into the deep end of the Premiership.

The jury is still out on Cisse (although he got a brace for Auxerre at the weekend and has now got 20 league goals in France which is not bad going) but I strongly advocate ditching Heskey in the summer and signing a veteran forward such as Hassailbank or Larson for a year or two regardless of whether we sign Cisse or not because inevitably Owen will pick up more injuries next year and a veteran forward will take some of the pressure off Baros, Pongolle and (if he comes) Cisse.

[115-1073096938]

Look JBG you're missing the point.

Baros is a squad player of immense quality. He's not a first team regular standard player. If we had say the Heskey of the treble season and Baros upfront when Owen isn't playing we wouldn't struggle at all.

Squad players will never ever ever be as good as Owen or Gerrard otherwise they wouldn't be squad players.

I'm not saying he's upto carrying the can but for all the games we were without Owen if we'd had Baros in there we'd have picked up alot more points and scored more goals imo.

Your point as to Houllier must realise.... Clearly he does or he wouldn't be going for Cisse???

For me Cisse, Owen, Baros and Pongolle is more than enough.

[vlady16.1]

injuries injuries injuries thats all i hear-- yes if no one got hurt the season would be better-- if there were no injuries i could manage the team-- reality is that the manager is supposed to select a squad that can suvive injuries-- multiple ones hurt but the drop off is just too great from the starters to the squad players-- fowler, litmanen, redknap, mcmannamen, babel, berger, wright  gone for who?? developental players-- give me a break-- the team was chosen by GH and the squad is simply not good enuff-- there is no mix of raw and finished talent. forget cisse if he was so good he'd already be in madrid-- this summer we must go after proven players like: viduka, smith, hassellbaink, gallas, malbranque, butt, cole, giggs-- forget someone who "will need to settle in" and get me impact players-- 4TH IS NOT ACCEPTABLE

bing in mon and lets go for the league and bag simply qualifying for cl

[redandblue]

We have a poor team, poor performances and the statistics don't lie ffs. Arsenal have disappeared over the horizon.

Those on this board who talk about injuries and other Houllier like excuses just miss the point. We have had two seasons now of mediocrity, of terrible performances, of struggling to beat teams in the bottom half of the table.

This Liverpool team is not capable of competing at the highest levels with the like of Arsenal, United or Chelsea. And under Houllier's mismanagement, we are falling further and further behind.

GH has spent £120m and the team revolves around two players who cost nothing. He may well have won a few cups, but in his five years, Liverpool have rarely been exciting to watch, playing dull, negative stagnant football.

I'd take that approach if it got us up there competing for the title but it hasn't. We are dull, boring, predictable and generally poor. Houllier is an egotistical clown who is doing huge damage to this club. Frankly, forget all the talk about O'Neill. I'd take anyone because under this idiot of a manager, we are going nowhere.

This is a club which once stood for excellence both on and off the pitch. Sadly, those days are long ago. LFC today stands for mediocrity.