Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

DAV Posted on Jan. 31 2008,15:11
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i dont like your language or attitude.
On another thread someone has just wrote "it wernt good enough for GH and it aint good enough for RB".
Yes he won us the champions league "thanks for that RB" But we have not challenged for the league title in  all his years here. Going by the way we are playing this season- we wont now either. Does winning the champions league give him the right to manage our team indefinatley??

Surely getting to another CL final last season gives him a little more leeway? The team is still short of quality in a few positions that he needs to strengthen. It would be hard for any coach to be successful in the current climate at LFC, most would agree that for the 1st 10-15 games of the season, before all this crud happened, we were in with a shout of the title, how about we salvage this season as best we can, get 4th place nailed down, if we get close in one of the cups take it as a bonus. Started giving Lucus, Babel and Sketrl games to get them ready and fully blooded. Identify the weak positions and the "deadwood" (we've all done it anyway, just get it amputated once and for all) Invest in the positions that need strengthened ( wings, fulllback, forwards) get the club in harmony again and see how far he can take us. If then he cant get us at least close then fair enough, its time for a change, but FFS no could be seriously judged on how this season has turned out so far, were all hurting folks, but i think I step back and a proper analysis of the situation is needed

Correct.

[DAV]

SABRE i agree with that 100%. RB going now would benefit no one- as the transfer deadline is nearly over and i wouldnt want any old manager taking charge. The end of the season i agree is time things should be re-assessed.
I'm not even bothering responding properly to Lando_Griffin, whats the point. He is the only true Liverpool supporter his opinions are right no one elses.Maybe he should take charge in the summer.

[LittleHobo]

he has spent more than wenger

similar amounts to fergie

and less than chelsea il give you that one

We've finished above Arsenal in all but Rafa's first season.

Ferguson spent hundreds of millions of pounds on his current team before Rafa arrived, so he didn't have to spend as much during Rafa's reign.

Next...

arsenal look like potential title winners now though

we dont

there is a diffrence

We had the best form in the Premiership from October 2005 to May 2006. Forget this, did we?

Lando how can you argue rafas corner on completely every decision he makes?

whats up with you?

even a blind dog can see that kuyt on current form wouldnt even get in derbys team

I'm sure if you re-read the post you've quoted, you'll realise your mistake.

your statistics are pointless though

so what if we were the best premiership team for that period of time? where did it get us?

its like saying that man city being top at the start of the season actually matters

it doesnt actually matter one bit because it has amounted in anything

[Ola Mr Benitez]

I would agree with Sabre to a degree, Rafa has ben given a 5 year (?) contract for him to win the Premiership and this is not at the end yet...

but here is the problem...  we have so far not improved our performances/results in the league since he arrived.  In fact this season we seem to be dropping points against teams that in the past we have won.  On top of that I think most fans are disappointed by the way we are often set up against weaker teams, especially at home.

Personally, the big prize for me is the Premiership, I didn't think we would win it this year, my prediction after we where taken over by H & G was that it would takle another 2 maybe 3 years to win, but I did expect us to still be in the race in January...!  in reality we seem to have gone backwards since last year.  Our overall performance this season has, apart from a couple of games where we have destroyed teams, been very poor.  Struggling to break teams down who play 10 men behind the ball and failing to put our chances away.

Players have nothing to play for, as it doesn't matter how good or bad they play in any game it doesn't mean they will be picked for the next one as Rafa, will over-analyse the opposition and set up our team to cancel them out, rather than letting them worry about us!  There is NO competition for places because of this.

I am a true red, have been for 30 something years, I have seen the best Liverpool teams beating the best Europe can offer.  Just because I don't think rafa is doing a particulary good job at the moment does not mean I am an idiot, or not really a fan or any other name that will probably get called, I just think he has had a good go, but in my opinion he needs to change a number of things that he has done since joining, but I can't see that happening.

[heimdall]

SABRE i agree with that 100%. RB going now would benefit no one- as the transfer deadline is nearly over and i wouldnt want any old manager taking charge. The end of the season i agree is time things should be re-assessed.
I'm not even bothering responding properly to Lando_Griffin, whats the point. He is the only true Liverpool supporter his opinions are right no one elses.Maybe he should take charge in the summer.

Lando is a vulgar piece of cr@p, he makes me laugh some times though, although not on purpose 

[LittleHobo]

SABRE i agree with that 100%. RB going now would benefit no one- as the transfer deadline is nearly over and i wouldnt want any old manager taking charge. The end of the season i agree is time things should be re-assessed.
I'm not even bothering responding properly to Lando_Griffin, whats the point. He is the only true Liverpool supporter his opinions are right no one elses.Maybe he should take charge in the summer.

Lando is a vulgar piece of cr@p, he makes me laugh some times though, although not on purpose 

ugly man syndrome - you can tell it a mile off

he thinks the world is to blame for the way he looks

[lakes10]

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.

We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.

And he got subbed.

Fk me.

We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.

The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.

So once again - his tactics can be wrong, but never right?

His subs can be wrong, but never right?

And his starting line-ups can be wrong, but never right?

Winning every competition going is all irrelevant as you think he's cost us points in the league, even though we've struggled with our "best" line-up on numerous occasions, despite them having a run?

Am I somewhere in the right area, here?

His tactics, subs and starting line ups, rotations policies and other Rafa trademarks are right often enough to give us a top 4 finish 20+points behind the top 2.

He is right enough often enough for us to be 3rd or 4th, but not often enough to get us challenging for the title.

I'd wildly speculate that most supporters want us to challenge for the title, not get it right often enough to finish 20 points off the leader, and scrapping with the likes of Man City for 4th spot.

Just a wild guess

And you think, given the same parameters, that someone else could do better?

Is that what you're saying?

The parameters being:

1. They cannot secure their first-choice targets, nor the 2nd, 3rd or 4th. They MUST make do with what's left, save for the odd one now and again.

2. They must be undermined by their bosses, both publicly and privately.

3. They must, at all times, play Steven Gerrard in the centre, despite him being a far better player out wide.

4. They must not deviate from the standard 4-4-2.

5. They must face a media campaign to hound them out of their job.

6. They can't alter their starting line-ups for any reason excluding death.

7. Fernando Torres must play every match, even when ill, unfit, or fatigued.

8. They must not make any unsuccessful signings. Particularly, they shouldn't buy a Dutch striker with a goalscoring record of 1 in 3 for 1/3 of what our rivals pay for a defender.

9. They shouldn't allow said Dutch striker to play himself back into form, as this is obviously a sign of favouritism and scullduggery on the manager's part.

10. They shouldn't, under any circumstances, choose a team that the armchair fans disagree with.


That about the size of it?

The size of it is, and the parameters being:

1) Play your best players and play your players that are in form. Tactics against the other team are not the only way to select the first 11

2) Players are fresh and not tired in the first months of the season- Dont rotate for the hell of it

3) Playing your best players means they gain confidence playing together and know how to bring the best out in each other

4) The team is more important than the squad.

5) Spain is not the best market for buying players- there are other countries that also have good football leagues. Lesson should have been from Josemi, Pellegrino, Nunes, Baragan, Gonzales.

6) Even if your new owners dont have a clue about football, sitting your most expensive signing on the bench is not going to win you any favors

7) The media is not a one way street that works only in your favor. It turns on you any second. Rafa is naive to think they wouldnt turn on him when he was using them to send a message to the "owners"

8)  Most importantly, be humble and accept when you're wrong. We need more money for players is a card any manager in the world can play. No one is stupid enough to think that with the present squad we shold be drawing at home to Birmingham

Similarly, Man U shouldn't have drawn to Reading at home, nor should they have lost to Bolton.

I take it Fergie should be sacked, then, too?

I bet you think it's alright for us to win against better teams, but lesser teams can't beat us.

Is that right?

all i can say to that is

Man U   57

Liverpool    40


if we was doing that well i would not moan if we had a draw Reading at home.

[account deleted by request]

When Blackburn won the title, they won it with 89 points in 1995. All the points total means is the best teams have got stronger at the expense of the weaker. Its the points difference that tells the more interesting stories.

I have never thought Rafa is a sh!t manager. I keep saying this...... I just don't like it when people knock our past managers to try to make Rafa look better. He has won the CL and the FA cup, he doesn't need people saying he's a better manager than Shankly etc. (which Lando has said BTW)

If Rafa's not good enough deriding previous managers won't make him look any better and if he is good enough there is no need anyway. I think its reasonable to compare Rafa to Houllier but not Dalglish, Paisley or Shankly.

Well I think you'll find I said that to counter the inane ramblings of someone who suggested you measure a manager on their first 3 years.

In that case, Rafa is MILES better than Shankly.

And regarding Dalglish - it's easier to sustain success than to get it in the first place.

I refer you to your "Dalglish signings" post:

Why no mention of the following?:

Barry Venison,

Don Hutchinson,

Steve Harkness,

Alan Irvine,

Mike Hooper,

Nick Tanner,

Barry Jones,

Robbie Holcroft, and

John Durnin?

Is it because they weren't roaring successes?

I am not trying to get at King Kenny - the bloke is a legend. I am merely pointing out that 1.) History tends to be very blinkered and favours the good things, and 2.) Rafa isn't being given a fair comparison by many of the knuckleheads on here.


But I digress.

No-one is ever going to make me believe that Rafa is anything other than a genius. You can all p*ss and whine as much as you like, and you can belittle him all you want.

Just be aware that I will be there, right behind you, p*ssing in your literary ear all the way. 

Which Dalglish signings post ? I haven't mentioned any signings in this thread?

BTW Venison went on to play for England,he also won the league with Liverpool, bought for £200k sold for £250k, Hutchinson went on to play for Scotland, bought for £175k sold for £1.5million, Steve Harkness was a decent player who we signed for £75k and sold for £350k. WTF are you on about Lando?

Alan Irvine we bought for £75k and sold for £100k

John Durnin was a free signing ffs that we sold for £250K

Barry Jones cost £500 not £500k, five hundred pounds AND HOOPER WAS SIGNED BY FAGAN NOT DALGLISH. 

I think the pressure has been a bit more than you could bear mate.   IS THAT REALLY THE BEST YOU COULD DO?

I only need to whisper the words Kuyt mate   

You can believe whatever you want about Rafa being a genius, getting someone to agree with you is another matter entirely

As for Shankly - sometimes its better to be quiet and thought a fool Lando rather than open your mouth and prove it.

PS
Posted 24/1/2008 00:02
#25763
Subject: Benitez to AC Milan 

New User

Posts: 1

Hello. I am New to this forum. I'm an American student studying at Liverpool John Moore's University, I heard a rumour from a friend who works at Anfield that Benitez is going to AC Milan. Done and dusted.

Funny that, as it's here as plain as day that Dalglish bought him:

Dalglish's signings

Funny also, that he made a profit - that couldn't be because of the vast amounts of time that passed and the inception of Sky's money, could it?

"Dirk Kuyt" is a Dutch International. What is your point exactly?


And don't f*cking condescend to me - if you can't read simple English and decipher the meaning for yourself, it's YOU whom is the fool.

I thought it was pretty f*cking obvious that I retaliated to some dumb punk ages ago who said "Wenger is a better manager because he won the double in his second season". "Ergo", said I, "This means that, by your logic, Benitez is a better manager than Shankly and Ferguson."

Do we understand this concept now? Have we finished trying to belittle me by using misunderstood information?

Because I'm here - if that's what you wish to attempt.

If you want to act like a c*nt I'M YOUR HUCKLEBERRY Lando. If you want to act like a reasonable person I am willing to be reasonable.

I never tried to belittle you, I just showed that you were talking boll0cks thats all.

You are letting your infatuation with Rafa go to your head mate.

My point about Kuyt is that he is cr@p mate , if you can't see that maybe a trip to specsavers would be in

order.

Take it whichever way you choose mate , I couldn't give a sh!t.

ps Rafa is not fit to clean Shanklys boots BTW

[burjennio]

im gonna be Mills Lane here and jump in the middle. Rafa should be given more time in a more hospitable working enviorment . However, Kuyt is garbage

Right, im off to solve the Middle East Crisis and get He-Man talking to Skeletor

[LittleHobo]

im gonna be Mills Lane here and jump in the middle. Rafa should be given more time in a more hospitable working enviorment . However, Kuyt is garbage

Right, im off to solve the Middle East Crisis and get He-Man talking to Skeletor

give him more time though and he will still play kuyt ahead of actual goal threats like crouch and babel

kuyt works in between the lines apparantly 

[puroresu]

im gonna be Mills Lane here and jump in the middle. Rafa should be given more time in a more hospitable working enviorment . However, Kuyt is garbage

Right, im off to solve the Middle East Crisis and get He-Man talking to Skeletor

give him more time though and he will still play kuyt ahead of actual goal threats like crouch and babel

kuyt works in between the lines apparantly 

lol.  The in between the lines quote is a classic.  Why doesnt rafa explain why he doesnt score goals.

[REDTILLDEAD]

To sum Dirk Kuyt up.....nice guy.....hard worker...... footballer!.

[redtrader74]

Impatience seems to rule the boards right now. There is a hysteria surrounding the managers position, because apparently 'We are Liverpool' and should be by rights always winning the LEague, well wake up, the challenge to make us real contenders is massive, and requires a hell of alot of work. IMO this was the year that we were well equipped for the challenge but the rug was pulled out from under Rafa, like it or not, call it excuses, BUT IT IS FACT.

If 3 1/2 years of not challenging for the League is enough to sack a manager who was building for the future and HAS succeeded in ALL the other competitions then so be it, thats the fickle world of current football fans. But i can assure you that unless we get our hands on some Billionaire sugar daddy, we will be back here within 3 years with the same rabid obsession of the League, because there is not a manager out there that can turn sh!t into Gold overnight.

[LittleHobo]

look at the kuyt youtube videos (fair enough you tube compilations can make anyone look good) fact is though in his days in holland he was like shearer in terms of goalscoring

he can score goals blatantly but for some reason for us he is too scared to get in the box or shoot

maybe its rafas instructions or maybe its kuyt

but kuyt NEVER goes looking for goals these days like hes scared or something

[DAV]

The thing is its the Sh it that RB bort. and play week in week out