Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

No you're right that he didn't spend money on either Voronin or N'Gog, but we obviously have spent it in other areas. Now if this is going to simply go down the "but we haven't spent as much money as Man Utd and therefore we can't compete" route, then we might as well retreat to our respective trenches and call it quits. The facts don't bare out that particular line of argument on two levels. Firstly we have spent as much money as Man Utd over Rafa's tenure, more infact. Secondly, we did compete very well last season, so the theory is disproven on two counts.

We may yet compete this season of course, i think if we can keep everyone fi there is every chance that we will get somewhere near at least. Ultimately though, as you even admit yourself, going into a new season without any striker cover is a terrible error of judgement. It's not even like it wasn't an obvious deficiency. I'm not talking about David Villa either, I'm asking for someone who is better than N'Gog and Voronin. The list is quite a bit longer than one name.

[Emerald Red]

No you're right that he didn't spend money on either Voronin or N'Gog, but we obviously have spent it in other areas. Now if this is going to simply go down the "but we haven't spent as much money as Man Utd and therefore we can't compete" route, then we might as well retreat to our respective trenches and call it quits. The facts don't bare out that particular line of argument on two levels. Firstly we have spent as much money as Man Utd over Rafa's tenure, more infact. Secondly, we did compete very well last season, so the theory is disproven on two counts.

We may yet compete this season of course, i think if we can keep everyone fi there is every chance that we will get somewhere near at least. Ultimately though, as you even admit yourself, going into a new season without any striker cover is a terrible error of judgement. It's not even like it wasn't an obvious deficiency. I'm not talking about David Villa either, I'm asking for someone who is better than N'Gog and Voronin. The list is quite a bit longer than one name.

Well, I could argue the point that when and whenever United feel the need to replace or strengthen, then money isn't really an object when it comes to getting the player they feel that they require. That's the difference. We'd all love to have David Villa playing for us, or even Silva, but can we afford to spend 30 million per on each? No. United can. So can Chelsea, and now City.

We're one of the biggest clubs on the planet. Don't you think we should be acting like we are in the transfere market? I'm frankly sick of it. We're one of the most renowned clubs on the planet, but when it comes to the transfer market, we're lightweights. We can practically be bullied away from our desired targets, some of which could and should be playing for us. Why shouldn't we have Ribery or Villa or Eto'o? Whenever I think of those names, I think no chance, and why? Because we don't want to spend or we aren't capable of it. We've not a prayer in the world of signing the likes of Ribery, players of the calibre we need at this club simply because clubs with spending clout are also interested, so that's us f*cked before we even get off the ground.

[bunglemark2]

No you're right that he didn't spend money on either Voronin or N'Gog, but we obviously have spent it in other areas. Now if this is going to simply go down the "but we haven't spent as much money as Man Utd and therefore we can't compete" route, then we might as well retreat to our respective trenches and call it quits. The facts don't bare out that particular line of argument on two levels. Firstly we have spent as much money as Man Utd over Rafa's tenure, more infact. Secondly, we did compete very well last season, so the theory is disproven on two counts.

We may yet compete this season of course, i think if we can keep everyone fi there is every chance that we will get somewhere near at least. Ultimately though, as you even admit yourself, going into a new season without any striker cover is a terrible error of judgement. It's not even like it wasn't an obvious deficiency. I'm not talking about David Villa either, I'm asking for someone who is better than N'Gog and Voronin. The list is quite a bit longer than one name.

Well, I could argue the point that when and whenever United feel the need to replace or strengthen, then money isn't really an object when it comes to getting the player they feel that they require. That's the difference. We'd all love to have David Villa playing for us, or even Silva, but can we afford to spend 30 million per on each? No. United can. So can Chelsea, and now City.

We're one of the biggest clubs on the planet. Don't you think we should be acting like we are in the transfere market? I'm frankly sick of it. We're one of the most renowned clubs on the planet, but when it comes to the transfer market, we're lightweights. We can practically be bullied away from our desired targets, some of which could and should be playing for us. Why shouldn't we have Ribery or Villa or Eto'o? Whenever I think of those names, I think no chance, and why? Because we don't want to spend or we aren't capable of it. We've not a prayer in the world of signing the likes of Ribery, players of the calibre we need at this club simply because clubs with spending clout are also interested, so that's us f*cked before we even get off the ground.

Valid points there mate.....
Can't see a silver lining though, unless a mysterious investor (possibly one dressed head to toe in white, with a black hairband !!) is drunk enough to sign a blank cheque to one or both of those tools in charge right now...
It's very depressing when you see Citeh and others with ridiculous amounts of cash but with nowhere near the pedigree we have surging ahead in the transfer market and - whose to say they won't ? - in the league / cup / CL ....

[bigmick]

But this is a very well trodden path this spending debate. We've spent more than Manchester United since Rafa has been in charge, and more than Arsenal. Yes it would be lovely if we could buy anybody we wanted, but in absolute fairness no team with the exception of Man City can do that. Even in their case, they couldn't get kaka despite bidding a ridiculous sum of money.

One of the main reasons we are in the sh!t this season is not to do with spending if we're honest. One of the main reasons is that we sold Alonso and bought a bloke who is long term injured, thinking Lucas could do the job of filling in. That was a huge tactical error, as we now know that Lucas is in no way capable of doing such a thing. We finished four points behind the Mancs last season, and they got trid of the best player in the World, and Carlos Tevez. they replaced them with Michael Owen on a free, and Antonio Valencia for a net gain of 62 million quid. Are they stronger? I personally don't think they are anywhere near, no. And yet, here we are, having spent a net 5 million or whatever it was, falling by the wayside while they are top again.

People tell me Spurs have imroved, Villa have improved (they always say that) even Sunderland have improved FFS. How comes the Mancs haven't gone backwards then? How comes Arsenal can sell Adebayor and Toure and not go backwards then?

The money thing is a factor, only in that everyone would like more of it. The simple question is this, are we currently maximising the resources at our disposal? The answer for me is no.

[bunglemark2]

It's almost as if the players collectively know the impact the loss of a playmaker like Alonso has had on our ability to dare to go one step further this season....Seeing SG drop back to make sure Lucas doesn't phuck up, seeing Torres lost up front on his own, but you've also gotta ask even before this season's dealing in the transfer market : why were we picking up these guys that nobody else wanted ?

[LFC2007]

Bit of both, Rafa and the owners, and as a supplementary the balloon  

The first is a general criticism because I think Rafa ought to have done a lot better in assembling cover over the course of his tenure - in the past three seasons especially; certainly out of the likes of Lucas, Dossena and Babel you'd expect one to come good and they just haven't. (Or if you think Lucas has (or still might), then the other two certainly haven't.)

Simply put, too many past mistakes in the market have deprived Rafa of opportunities in each subsequent window to remedy the problem - a problem that has - more or less - remained ever-present over the past five-and-a-bit seasons. Each dud has been a setback that has claimed some of Rafa's clout over the squad. In each case - as a manager - he's made a personal investment as well as a financial one - in outlay and wages. The personal commitment I think is best demonstrated in the likes of Babel and Lucas since they were billed as precocious talents - time and money tied up for longer than usual. Whether or not the owners would have released those funds had he secured a deal for any of them doesn't diminish the criticism of those signings, but significantly it ought to count as a mitigating factor against the current state of the squad, since most other managers - I suspect - wouldn't have such a condition imposed upon them.

In this past transfer window I think the criticism of the owners sharpens in respect of providing ample funds. It appeared as if we were circling Lavezzi, Tevez, Turner et al before we finally unfurled the princely of £1.50 for an (Ancient) Greek bloke.

The other key factor at play is the loss of Alonso and the implications of an injured Aquilani, since the midfield has formed the crux of our problems. Who knows what might have been had Alonso remained, but I can't help but speculate that we probably wouldn't be 7 points behind the Manc's right now. It follows that our squad depth wouldn't then have been highlighted as much.

[Calum]

The bottom line is Benitez has made a mess of things. He has bought too many mediocre players (by Liverpool's standard) and sold too many good players. I won't bother naming them because I'm sure you know who they are.

For me, the buck stops at Benitez. After more than 5 years in charge, the team has gone backwards, despite coming close to winning the league last season. I've said it before and I will say it again - Benitez has to go. Sooner than later.

[Sir Roger]

Bit of both, Rafa and the owners, and as a supplementary the balloon  

The first is a general criticism because I think Rafa ought to have done a lot better in assembling cover over the course of his tenure - in the past three seasons especially; certainly out of the likes of Lucas, Dossena and Babel you'd expect one to come good and they just haven't. (Or if you think Lucas has (or still might), then the other two certainly haven't.)

Simply put, too many past mistakes in the market have deprived Rafa of opportunities in each subsequent window to remedy the problem - a problem that has - more or less - remained ever-present over the past five-and-a-bit seasons. Each dud has been a setback that has claimed some of Rafa's clout over the squad. In each case - as a manager - he's made a personal investment as well as a financial one - in outlay and wages. The personal commitment I think is best demonstrated in the likes of Babel and Lucas since they were billed as precocious talents - time and money tied up for longer than usual. Whether or not the owners would have released those funds had he secured a deal for any of them doesn't diminish the criticism of those signings, but significantly it ought to count as a mitigating factor against the current state of the squad, since most other managers - I suspect - wouldn't have such a condition imposed upon them.

In this past transfer window I think the criticism of the owners sharpens in respect of providing ample funds. It appeared as if we were circling Lavezzi, Tevez, Turner et al before we finally unfurled the princely of £1.50 for an (Ancient) Greek bloke.

The other key factor at play is the loss of Alonso and the implications of an injured Aquilani, since the midfield has formed the crux of our problems. Who knows what might have been had Alonso remained, but I can't help but speculate that we probably wouldn't be 7 points behind the Manc's right now. It follows that our squad depth wouldn't then have been highlighted as much.

I remember when there was a big fuss over Michael Owns gambling some seasons ago. When he was criticised for his willingness to bet huge sums almost willy nilly. I remember saying that Houllier was the biggest gambler at the club at the time due to some of the players he brought in and who eventually cost him his job because of their unwillingness or inability to do the job he wanted. I fear Rafa is on the same path. Only this time we have no stability at board level...

[Dazzer]

The bottom line is Benitez has made a mess of things. He has bought too many mediocre players (by Liverpool's standard) and sold too many good players. I won't bother naming them because I'm sure you know who they are.

For me, the buck stops at Benitez. After more than 5 years in charge, the team has gone backwards, despite coming close to winning the league last season. I've said it before and I will say it again - Benitez has to go. Sooner than later.

Thing is I don't personaly think some of players are that bad lucus brazil internation player ... babel tounted as next henry ?

These lads had tallent and since comming to club have not performed , for me you can only look to one person in this case and thats Rafa.Its clear to me players don't want to give 110% for him.

Only reason players like Gerrard and Torres have performed is due to there 100% professionalism but you can't expsect every player to have that.I don't care is people say its liverpool FC is they won't play for the club they can fu.ck off type of thing.But this is 2009 and we havent won the league in a long time not like we back in the 70s now when every player wanted to put on a red shirt.We need to stop living in the past and move on as a club because we seem to think to much like fans from the 70s instead of fans in the moden game.If we keep benchmarking our players to the greats of the past they never have a chance in our minds to be good liverpool players.No moden footballer can replace the Greats.But at same time we have to accpet the current team as players with promise.We know they can play we have seen it but why not all the time ?

It can only be Rafa.

I think a manager lives and dies by results (not performances results) atm our results are very bad for me that is down to tactics and man management.Performances are more player to player based but a great manager can get results even when player performances are not great.Rafa has done thing in past to be fair.But atm he isn't we have even carried on the form from end of last season I think we didn't look to god then.I just think the wheels have really fallen off for what ever reason.Could it be owners yes of course it could but its been like this now for 3 years.I think deep down Rafa each game is losing trust of players.Its only a matter of time before he goes and even result vs the mancs won't help if we lose week after to Fulham.

[red_guy]

Either way, Liverpool (in present form + for the last few seasons) will always be reliant on the others in the so called "big 4" to slip up during a season, because we are never sure of results against any team in the Premiership and I don't see any changes in that at the moment.

Agree. We can't be considered as a title challenge team if we have this 'rely on other team's mistakes' mentality.

[Trewyn]

Mick... please paraphrase into a single line matey...

The owners... without the tools to do the job, LFC wont win the league. We looked woeful today and still need 3 first teamers plus 3 equal squad rotators. Once we have that we can blame the manager.

Rafa's learnt theres no point rotating when the first team itself isnt good enough.

I voted owners and these are my exact sentiments.
No manager can win the EPL title without the full support of the club owners. You need a total holistic approach to winning the most difficult league in the world.

Points on why Rafa shouldn't shoulder too much of the blame and should be lauded instead.

*edited to add link to other thread in forum*

[bigmick]

Odd that this thread got moved, it was generating some fairly lively debate  I know it's a poll, but the poll element was very much secondary it seemed to me and was only being used as the basis for a discussion. I suppose that's why nobodies posted in it for four hours.

[Dazzer]

Odd that this thread got moved, it was generating some fairly lively debate  I know it's a poll, but the poll element was very much secondary it seemed to me and was only being used as the basis for a discussion. I suppose that's why nobodies posted in it for four hours.

Yep this is one of best football debates I had for a long time and they move it and destroy it for me.

[tubby]

Why is it in here now? I was perfectly fine in general.

[maypaxvobiscum]

I think the point the fella is making though Emerald isn't that the likes of Cisse were top players, far from it. I think he is sayign that despite his obvious limitations he is better than what we have instead aside obviously from Torres. In fairness he is correct as well. To be fair, so is Crouch, Bellamy, Baros, Pongolle and Keane.

Now as you point out, there were valid reasons for moving on all those players on that list, but it's common sense that if you replace them with inferior players the value of the squad in a footballing sense will go down. Once Aquilani starts, we'll be able to make a judgement on whther or not the squad and team have improved with him in it as opposed to Alonso. That won't change the apparent fact that we had no choice but to sell Alonso of course, but replacing players and remaining successful is what good managers do. It's what Ferguson has done three or four times over and is doing this season after losing Tevez and Ronaldo, and it's what wenger has done mnay times over as well. It's what we must aim for too surely.

thank you. couldnt have said it better myself    and to add on,

Warnock, yes he made errors and got sold, before getting sold again for a much much higher fee.

Hamann, Fowler and Finnan, getting on yes but i know who i would prefer on the bench compared to Lucas, Voronin and Degen.

Riise, he offered a bigger goal threat then all our current 3 leftbacks combined. especially useful in free kicks.