The squad, is it thin? if it is...... - Is it anyones fault?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bad Bob » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:17 am

bigmick wrote:Like always, a lot of these issues are interlinked. We held on and held on for the best possible price for Alonso, but we paid a price in terms of being prepared from day one. In so doing we won the big willy contest this time with Madrid, but we may have paid a heavy price for the victory.

Not sure about this argument, Mick, TBPH.  I think it's fair to say that Rafa had Gareth Barry in mind as Alonso's replacement, since that was the worst kept secret in football last summer.  So, when, by his own admission, Rafa got wind that Alonso wanted to leave in May, I'm sure he was hoping to get the deal done quickly so that he could get Barry signed (based on the sell before we buy scenario discussed above).  But, before that could happen City came in big style for Barry and threw a spanner in the works.  Some reports at the time suggested we did try and hijack the Barry to City deal at the 11th hour once we got wind of it but it was too late and Rafa lost his ready-made replacement. 

So, who does he look to next?  Well, according to the man himself, he's had his eye on Aquilani for a long time and so I think the Italian became Rafa's top choice replacement once Barry was gone.  Given that the lad's crocked and thus that there probably weren't many other clubs sniffing around, I think Rafa (perhaps under pressure from the owners) opted to bide his time and play hardball with Madrid in order to get the most money out of the deal that he could.  Why not?  He'd already lost Barry and his preferred next best option wouldn't be ready until September at the earliest anyway so why accept a lower offer for the sake of saving a week or two?  Many have said it's a gamble buying a crocked player to replace a key midfielder and of course it is but I think Rafa's thinking long term: as far as he's concerned, Aquilani's the player he wants (now that Barry's gone) and he'd rather get the right player late than the wrong player early.
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Postby Fauxy » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:18 am

Skrtel not Skyrtel !!!

:D
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Postby LFC2007 » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:18 am

Bad Bob wrote:But it does make a difference, mate.  If Rafa is given a wedge of cash to spend from the owners and is able to use it go and sign the players he wants its different than if he has to sell before he can buy.  In the second scenario he has to ship out players he might otherwise like to keep in order to raise funds to get the top players in that we need to truly have a go at the league.  Look at our right back situation, for instance.  We can all agree that Johnson is probably an improvement on Arbeloa but I think most of us might have preferred to hang onto the Spaniard as back-up as well.  But in a 'sell in order to buy' scenario, Rafa doesn't always have that luxury.  To my mind that goes someway to explaining why we have a relatively threadbare squad despite seemingly spending a lot of money on transfers during Rafa's time at the club.  It also suggests that the money spent numbers need to be seriously juxtaposed with the money raised numbers, rather than just dismissing the latter as something that has no bearing on the former.

I've been saying that for a while now  :laugh:
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:26 am

bigmick wrote:My own take is fairly obviously from my stance over the years that we could have done it better.

Oh, I'll agree with you there, mate.  I don't think there's any question that a few of Rafa's buys and sales have been dodgy at best.  There's also the recurring issue of man management: could he have worked harder to keep some good players happy in their bit part roles?  Yes, I think he probably could have.  My point, though, is that all of this talk of how much he's spent in the last five years or how many players have come in and out is rarely discussed in the context of a 'sell before we buy' policy.  Unfortunately, in that kind of situation, you have to consider players both as members of a football squad and potential commodities in the transfer market--an asset that can be sold to raise needed cash at a vital moment.  Perhaps we're now seeing the true price we've paid to sign the likes of Torres and Masch (and, if Saint's sources are right, to keep them sweet)?
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:28 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:But it does make a difference, mate.  If Rafa is given a wedge of cash to spend from the owners and is able to use it go and sign the players he wants its different than if he has to sell before he can buy.  In the second scenario he has to ship out players he might otherwise like to keep in order to raise funds to get the top players in that we need to truly have a go at the league.  Look at our right back situation, for instance.  We can all agree that Johnson is probably an improvement on Arbeloa but I think most of us might have preferred to hang onto the Spaniard as back-up as well.  But in a 'sell in order to buy' scenario, Rafa doesn't always have that luxury.  To my mind that goes someway to explaining why we have a relatively threadbare squad despite seemingly spending a lot of money on transfers during Rafa's time at the club.  It also suggests that the money spent numbers need to be seriously juxtaposed with the money raised numbers, rather than just dismissing the latter as something that has no bearing on the former.

I've been saying that for a while now  :laugh:

The penny's finally dropped.  :D
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Postby Tim LFC » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:30 am

Barry's nearly 30! Aquilani is nearly 25! He's younger so he should give us more for the future then Barry. But i'll say it again if Aquilani turns out to be a fantastic signing and Masch wants to go sell him to Barca for 30m or 35m and strengthen up in other areas. And if the owners give us 10m or 20m then we could have 50m to spend if we sell Masch. No point in keeping Masch if he wants out is there?
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Postby KOPMATT » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:47 pm

I think we'll probably need Aquilani as soon as and then we'll have to wait for him to bed in, what was a great season for us domestically last season and hoping we could carry that on into start of this season I can't just accept that 'the first game scenario' is what is happening here. I thought we were awful and carried our preseason form in the Spurs game. We deserved nothing regardless of Rafa's rants at the officials and we got what we deserved NOTHING! We must turn it around on Wednesday. I dearly hope so! :(
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 pm

The squad is too thin no doubt about it. We did very well last season to be challenging the mancs all the way. But to be honest we didn't have a squad like the mancs or chelsea to be able to afford some blips in form and still challenge for the title. We were thin at fullbacks and we were thin at strikers. Degen was always feckin injured and we were lucky arbeloa was fit all season. Without stevie and gerrard we were shaky at the striking department but fortunately Benayoun and Kuyt stepped up to the plate.

Now we sold Arbeloa and bought Johnson. Slight improvement but didn't add to the squad depth because it is one for one. And we also sold Alonso who was a big reason for last season's success and bought Aquilani. Even though I anticpate Aquilani to be a good player, it's a step backwards because we've sold a proven performer and bought an unproven performer who's injured. All of these sales are by no means Rafa's choices as both arbeloa and alonso wanted to leave. So it wasn't Rafa's fault. And then we have sold Keane mid season and even now do not have a replacement for him. Instead of building up the squad form least season we have reduced. And yes I blame the owners. I fear Rafa would have to try a new trick if he wishes this team to be as competitive as last season's. Maybe give the youngsters like Nemeth, Pacheco and El Zhar a chance?
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Postby Johnny Boy » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:24 pm

There is always a risk in signing a player but can't help look at some of the money we have paid out for Babel, Dossena, Pennant and more - these 3 over £20 million combined, how I would like to swap all that for a David Silva.
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Postby Scottbot » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:28 pm

bigmick wrote:Like always, a lot of these issues are interlinked. We held on and held on for the best possible price for Alonso, but we paid a price in terms of being prepared from day one. In so doing we won the big willy contest this time with Madrid, but we may have paid a heavy price for the victory.

I don't buy that mate, The Aquillani deal looked like it was lined up long before the club agreed a price with madrid for Alonso. If he was always Rafa's first choice as replacement then it made little difference how late in the window Alonso was moved on. And if there is no more (or very little) money left in the transfer coffers then once again, the timeframe for the Alonso deal is irrelevent.
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Postby Scottbot » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:32 pm

bigmick wrote:Given the players available, I'd leave the same team for Stoke with the exception of replacing babel with Benayoun. If however Riera is fit, then as I said before the season started we may have to make a harsh decision. In that scenario I'd go with this as our best team :

                 Reina

Johnson   Carragher  Skyrtel   Insua

Kuyt    Gerrard     Masherano     Riera

        Benayoun

                        Torres.

No surprises here, but I'd play that team until someone gets injured. No fecking about, revolving, gazelling, taking into account the opposition and all that old b0llocks (I might swap Lucas for Benayoun and go 4-5-1 at Chelsea) I'd play this team. That is our best team I think if everyone bar Aquilani is fit, once he is we can shift Gerrard back forward and have a look at him. My worry is too much of a dalliance with the likes of Lucas and Babel will see us out of it before it's even fecking started.

I know it's very early doors but i'd be inclined to go with the same team. Why risk Gerrard and Torres getting starved of possession? Get Stevie back in the engine room and let Benny have the free role which is without doubt his best position.
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Postby Effes » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:35 pm

Scottbot wrote:
bigmick wrote:Given the players available, I'd leave the same team for Stoke with the exception of replacing babel with Benayoun. If however Riera is fit, then as I said before the season started we may have to make a harsh decision. In that scenario I'd go with this as our best team :

                 Reina

Johnson   Carragher  Skyrtel   Insua

Kuyt    Gerrard     Masherano     Riera

        Benayoun

                        Torres.

No surprises here, but I'd play that team until someone gets injured. No fecking about, revolving, gazelling, taking into account the opposition and all that old b0llocks (I might swap Lucas for Benayoun and go 4-5-1 at Chelsea) I'd play this team. That is our best team I think if everyone bar Aquilani is fit, once he is we can shift Gerrard back forward and have a look at him. My worry is too much of a dalliance with the likes of Lucas and Babel will see us out of it before it's even fecking started.

I know it's very early doors but i'd be inclined to go with the same team. Why risk Gerrard and Torres getting starved of possession? Get Stevie back in the engine room and let Benny have the free role which is without doubt his best position.

Agreed - until Aquilani is fit, this is our best 11.
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Postby KOPMATT » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:15 pm

I agree with that upto the point of CB, I prefer Agger to Skrtel although he is strong and not injured as much but as todays news shows he has a few weeks out now also. I would love to try and see how Beny would do in the free role as I think also it's his position he can be so tricky at times maybe the one to unlock things as his assists show for last season?
I'm really looking forward to seeing Aquilani in action too if reports of what h'es like are true?
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Postby Tim LFC » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:41 pm

I think we just need to try some youngsters. If these youngsters turn out to be really good it could safe us a lot of cash in the future.
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Postby puroresu » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:48 pm

Tim LFC wrote:I think we just need to try some youngsters. If these youngsters turn out to be really good it could safe us a lot of cash in the future.

And what if they aint good enough?
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