Liverpool FC Forum

[DanAn]

how important is it to have a good squad? Did Rafa's Valencia teams have the best squad in La Liga?  If we had a different manager for the last 5 years, do people think we would have a better squad now? A better one than United or Chelsea?

A good squad is very important, even MORE SO when the manager believes so strongly in rotation. I think we would definately have a better balanced squad and probably a stronger squad given how much we have spent and the players that have been available during this time.

Whether it would have been as strong as Chelsea or the mancs squads is perhaps more doubtful, but then again a team is only as strong as its weakest link, and we have certainly spent more than enough to ensure that we should have adequate cover in all positions.

what I am saying is that who cares if we think we have a good squad. I think Rafa would argue that he has a good squad for what he is trying to do. Most people don't rate Kuyt, but he must be doing something out there that is valuable to the club. I am not really sure that Rafa would want someone that most people would probably say is better to play out there.

Also with our striker situation, that is a bit tricky. We normally play with just one up front, so if we buy somebody who can also play as a lone striker, they aren't going to feature a whole lot because that person is not going to be better than Torres. It doesn't seem like you bring in or keep anybody of too much quality in these roles because players want to play.

I suppose the easiest answer to the striker problem would be to bring in someone who while not of the calibre of Torres was more versatile. Someone who could play well as a striker when called on but would be in regular contention for a place in the team in a different role. I.E. Someone like Babel ....... only better, or someone who offered something completely different like Crouch did.

Personally I would prefer a genuine top quality striker, as I still prefer 4-4-2 although admittedly Torres has made me question it at times.

I do think we should have someone though, as Torres fit or not cannot play every game.

Raul?

You're dreaming if you think Raul is going anywhere. He is an icon.

[DanAn]

So that Spain set up is a no no then ok back to the drawing board

If we could get some better quality fullback and Villa then I'd be all for it but with Aurelio and Arbeloa I wouldn't have much confidence.

[account deleted by request]

Can I just chuck a spnner in the works here.

What if Rafa goes back in for Barry?
O'Neill has already said that if Barry wanted to go, no one would begrudge him the move.

That's not so much a spanner as it is a serious possibility imo.

He's definitely a player that Benitez likes, and he is a good player no doubt, but I seriously hope we don't go back in for him.  Alonso has turned his career around this season, because he had really stagnated for a couple of seasons imo.  I would hope that neither Gerrard nor Mascherano are going anywhere either.  Therefore there is no room for Barry at centre mid (which is by far his best position).

If he is bought as an option at either left back or left mid then Rafa needs a slap.  We'll see what happens.

In my opinion the reason Rafa wanted Barry last summer was not only that Alonso was playing below par, but that he wanted a little more going forward than we saw last year. This season Alonso has not only improved his form, but has stepped out more, whether that is enough for Rafa to reconsider I am not so sure.

If we now accept that Gerrard is no longer considered as a CM player, we still seem at times lacking in our midfield play going forward. I honestly don't think Barry would be the complete answer, I would prefer a more creative player working behind Gerrard than Barry.

[Effes]

Nah i found it it was from On The Kop. this lad asked an interesting question an id like to know your thoughts

Could we line up like Spain an no its not a joke an if the owners got the money out maybe we could . hes the lads post ive nicked.


Their formation last night was mad, with no wide midfielders at all. They lined up with Senna holding, Xavi just in front of him and Alonso in a narrow right sided position. Yet he played his normal central role, with the wonderful Iniesta in a tucked-in left-sided position. The width on the right came from the buccaneering Ramos, and on the left Capdevilla and latterly Arbeloa also showed tremendous attacking ambition.

And all this with two out and out centre-forwards in Torres and the slightly withdrawn Villa.

I think we need to score more goals and maybe up the ante attacking-wise. Is there any way we could adopt a similar formation? Shoe-horning Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard into a central triumvirate á la Alonso, Senna and Xavi? Obviously at present we don’t really have the personnel to play two up front, but a move for David Villa in the summer could perhaps see this formation work for us? The sublime Xavi Hernandez is obviously central to Spain’s play and we don’t have a player like him, but still…

Nanny - Rafa may go that way if he signs Barry.
Not the same as described, but maybe something like this?

Riera    Barry   Alonso    Gerrard

               Masch

Possibilities no?

[Zidane]

Gerrard will never again be played consistently in our midfield under Rafa imo so I don't think we should consider him that anymore.  Barring injuries to players or drastic measures of course, he's more of a CF now.

[aCe']

Its all about buying the right players yet again this summer...
Rafa has yet and again failed to bring in the players we need imo (bar Torres, Reina and Alonso) and as things stand it is now more or less clear as to where our weak links lie...

in terms of priority..right wing HAS GOT to be highest on our list...

theres probably a few dozen names that can be put out who would all be an improvement on what we got atm but i think that we should be going all out and get the best our funds can get us... Maxi, Joaquin, Robben, Silva, Ribery, Joe Cole... such names would be brilliant signings

when it comes to fullbacks, im not sure we should be spending big bucks on those positions... we already have Aurelio and Arbeloa who are, if nothing else, solid to say the least... Improvement would be welcome, but not absolutly critical imo...

Theres obviously other areas in the side that can do with improving... a centerback would be high on my priority list quite simply because i dont rate Agger as highly as most do, and i dont think that Skrtel is quite ready yet... Hyypia and Carra are obviously the pick of the bunch for me but given Hyypia's age i wouldnt bet on him getting many games next season if hes even still at the club (he would be an absolutely cracking signing for teams struggling defensively and newely promoted sides...and thats where i expect him to end up)

Anyways.. id be more than satisfied if we end up bringing in a world class right winger, a quality rightback and maybe a centerback (assuming Hyypia and maybe Agger are the only players leaving before the season starts) ..

That said, i expect to see some changes in the squad with players like Benayoun and Babel maybe leaving and Rafa yet again opting for average 'squad' players to fill in the gaps left by the departures..etc etc...

What i'd like to stress though is that we absolutely need to figure out the formation and shape of the side for the new season before going out and buying players that we might not need... I'm not a big fan of bringing a forward and playing him as a right winger or bringing a central midfielder and playing him as a leftback simply because we'v alreasy got that area sorted out... just go out and add quality to the starting 11 before messing around with the rest of the squad...

What we' got at the moment is a pretty solid looking side with plenty of options in many positions..lets not go out and ruin it yet again... a couple of 20+mill signings in the right positions might be all thats needed

[bigmick]

So that Spain set up is a no no then ok back to the drawing board

Needless to say Nan I'd have been only to happy to waffle on about it for a page or so, but they didn't show the game over here so it'd be daft just talking utter b0ll0cks about it without even having seen it.

[aCe']

Nah i found it it was from On The Kop. this lad asked an interesting question an id like to know your thoughts

Could we line up like Spain an no its not a joke an if the owners got the money out maybe we could . hes the lads post ive nicked.


Their formation last night was mad, with no wide midfielders at all. They lined up with Senna holding, Xavi just in front of him and Alonso in a narrow right sided position. Yet he played his normal central role, with the wonderful Iniesta in a tucked-in left-sided position. The width on the right came from the buccaneering Ramos, and on the left Capdevilla and latterly Arbeloa also showed tremendous attacking ambition.

And all this with two out and out centre-forwards in Torres and the slightly withdrawn Villa.

I think we need to score more goals and maybe up the ante attacking-wise. Is there any way we could adopt a similar formation? Shoe-horning Alonso, Mascherano and Gerrard into a central triumvirate á la Alonso, Senna and Xavi? Obviously at present we don’t really have the personnel to play two up front, but a move for David Villa in the summer could perhaps see this formation work for us? The sublime Xavi Hernandez is obviously central to Spain’s play and we don’t have a player like him, but still…

Nanny - Rafa may go that way if he signs Barry.
Not the same as described, but maybe something like this?

Riera    Barry   Alonso    Gerrard

               Masch

Possibilities no?

Ouch..that looks cagey to say the least... we dont have what it takes to play the way spain do and never will in my honest opinion... better focus on improving on what we already got which is plenty good imo...

[Sabre]

So that Spain set up is a no no then ok back to the drawing board

No, Spain are succesful because the opposition have not been so far to get the ball out of them, if Spain tried to play posession and failed, like in the last world cup, that system with no wings would be rip apart from the wings like France did.

Often Nanny a system or a way to play isn't good or bad per se, it's good or bad depending the players you have. And I don't see us doing that kind of football because yes, Gerrard is a world class midfielder and he could adapt to any system, but men like Kuyt will never provide you the posession Iniesta gives you. And Silva is a better player than Riera. A way of playing isn't something that can be copied and that's it. It's about the players you have and what they can do aswell.

[Kharhaz]

It seems that lots of threads are concerned with whether the manager should stay or go, which many find extremely surprising given we're second in the league. Just about the only thing which there is any concensus about, is that the next six to eight weeks could provide hugely contrasting outcomes, and make the manager either look a hero or a has been.

If we win it (The Premiership) then presumeably all debate is over. If we fall apart, a similar outcome but in the opposite sense. If as seems most likely we come up a bit short, the debate will rage on about progress, whether it's enough etc.

My feeling is though, given the fact that there is 13 games to go in the Premiership for us, it seems a bit odd to be deciding the verdict on the five year plan over such a short period of matches. What if we suddenly hit form and win it, does that mean that the plan has worked? Many will say a resounding yes, and I've no doubt they'd be in the majority. By the same token, what if Gerrard's injury gets worse, Torres breaks down and we fall apart? Does THAT necessarily mean the five year plan has failed?

Because of that, before this one is over, and before the next one begins (five year plans that is) it might be an idea to look at where we actually are in terms of squad strength. Presumeably we are going to need new players in the Summer, regardless of how we go in the next 13 matches. Presumeably we are going to need to strengthen the squad in some areas, regardless. So where are we, how good is the squad today? That's the thread opener, I'll have a go at an assessment in the next post.

I know it's been done before at different stages, but it is a constantly evolving equation and might be interesting.

With regards to rafa. The "should he stay or go debate" should be left until the end of the season, when we can see whether we are any closer to winning the league or not. The problem I have at this moment in time is the timing of a new contract offer. The fact that it is being discussed shows that rafa has an element of control, even now. I would, and im pretty sure anyone else would, if they were in the position of chairman of LFC, after rafa turned down our first contract offer, say "OK fine, lets leave it until the end of the season then." More pressure on rafa? I dont think so, the pressure began when Man Utd won the league last year, they are dangerously close to equalling our record of league titles. As A supporter this concerns me, Rafa is also a supporter, this should concern him more, he can actually make it happen, however his decisions in matches leave me wondering. Not about his love for Liverpool, but his general awareness of how much the league means for us all.

If we win the league, then it can only be down to rafa buckling down and making constant sensible lineup decisions from here on in until the end of the season, can anyone see that happening? I cant.

Do we have the squad? Or more to the point, do we have a manager who can make the most of it?

Im not having a dig at rafa for the sake of argument, im just pointing out my concerns, his stubbornness could well be the end of his management reign at Liverpool FC, and his stubbornness is waning my support for him.

Worst case scenario for me, he signs a new 5 year contract in the next couple of months, we fall away from being just 2 points behind to 8+ and we can all look forward to another 5 years at least of frustration.

[account deleted by request]

It seems that lots of threads are concerned with whether the manager should stay or go, which many find extremely surprising given we're second in the league. Just about the only thing which there is any concensus about, is that the next six to eight weeks could provide hugely contrasting outcomes, and make the manager either look a hero or a has been.

If we win it (The Premiership) then presumeably all debate is over. If we fall apart, a similar outcome but in the opposite sense. If as seems most likely we come up a bit short, the debate will rage on about progress, whether it's enough etc.

My feeling is though, given the fact that there is 13 games to go in the Premiership for us, it seems a bit odd to be deciding the verdict on the five year plan over such a short period of matches. What if we suddenly hit form and win it, does that mean that the plan has worked? Many will say a resounding yes, and I've no doubt they'd be in the majority. By the same token, what if Gerrard's injury gets worse, Torres breaks down and we fall apart? Does THAT necessarily mean the five year plan has failed?

Because of that, before this one is over, and before the next one begins (five year plans that is) it might be an idea to look at where we actually are in terms of squad strength. Presumeably we are going to need new players in the Summer, regardless of how we go in the next 13 matches. Presumeably we are going to need to strengthen the squad in some areas, regardless. So where are we, how good is the squad today? That's the thread opener, I'll have a go at an assessment in the next post.

I know it's been done before at different stages, but it is a constantly evolving equation and might be interesting.

With regards to rafa. The "should he stay or go debate" should be left until the end of the season, when we can see whether we are any closer to winning the league or not. The problem I have at this moment in time is the timing of a new contract offer. The fact that it is being discussed shows that rafa has an element of control, even now. I would, and im pretty sure anyone else would, if they were in the position of chairman of LFC, after rafa turned down our first contract offer, say "OK fine, lets leave it until the end of the season then." More pressure on rafa? I dont think so, the pressure began when Man Utd won the league last year, they are dangerously close to equalling our record of league titles. As A supporter this concerns me, Rafa is also a supporter, this should concern him more, he can actually make it happen, however his decisions in matches leave me wondering. Not about his love for Liverpool, but his general awareness of how much the league means for us all.

If we win the league, then it can only be down to rafa buckling down and making constant sensible lineup decisions from here on in until the end of the season, can anyone see that happening? I cant.

Do we have the squad? Or more to the point, do we have a manager who can make the most of it?

Im not having a dig at rafa for the sake of argument, im just pointing out my concerns, his stubbornness could well be the end of his management reign at Liverpool FC, and his stubbornness is waning my support for him.

Worst case scenario for me, he signs a new 5 year contract in the next couple of months, we fall away from being just 2 points behind to 8+ and we can all look forward to another 5 years at least of frustration.

Good post mate that just about sums up my fears, and why I would prefer that the contract be held up till the summer as well.

[aCe']

It seems that lots of threads are concerned with whether the manager should stay or go, which many find extremely surprising given we're second in the league. Just about the only thing which there is any concensus about, is that the next six to eight weeks could provide hugely contrasting outcomes, and make the manager either look a hero or a has been.

If we win it (The Premiership) then presumeably all debate is over. If we fall apart, a similar outcome but in the opposite sense. If as seems most likely we come up a bit short, the debate will rage on about progress, whether it's enough etc.

My feeling is though, given the fact that there is 13 games to go in the Premiership for us, it seems a bit odd to be deciding the verdict on the five year plan over such a short period of matches. What if we suddenly hit form and win it, does that mean that the plan has worked? Many will say a resounding yes, and I've no doubt they'd be in the majority. By the same token, what if Gerrard's injury gets worse, Torres breaks down and we fall apart? Does THAT necessarily mean the five year plan has failed?

Because of that, before this one is over, and before the next one begins (five year plans that is) it might be an idea to look at where we actually are in terms of squad strength. Presumeably we are going to need new players in the Summer, regardless of how we go in the next 13 matches. Presumeably we are going to need to strengthen the squad in some areas, regardless. So where are we, how good is the squad today? That's the thread opener, I'll have a go at an assessment in the next post.

I know it's been done before at different stages, but it is a constantly evolving equation and might be interesting.

With regards to rafa. The "should he stay or go debate" should be left until the end of the season, when we can see whether we are any closer to winning the league or not. The problem I have at this moment in time is the timing of a new contract offer. The fact that it is being discussed shows that rafa has an element of control, even now. I would, and im pretty sure anyone else would, if they were in the position of chairman of LFC, after rafa turned down our first contract offer, say "OK fine, lets leave it until the end of the season then." More pressure on rafa? I dont think so, the pressure began when Man Utd won the league last year, they are dangerously close to equalling our record of league titles. As A supporter this concerns me, Rafa is also a supporter, this should concern him more, he can actually make it happen, however his decisions in matches leave me wondering. Not about his love for Liverpool, but his general awareness of how much the league means for us all.

If we win the league, then it can only be down to rafa buckling down and making constant sensible lineup decisions from here on in until the end of the season, can anyone see that happening? I cant.

Do we have the squad? Or more to the point, do we have a manager who can make the most of it?

Im not having a dig at rafa for the sake of argument, im just pointing out my concerns, his stubbornness could well be the end of his management reign at Liverpool FC, and his stubbornness is waning my support for him.

Worst case scenario for me, he signs a new 5 year contract in the next couple of months, we fall away from being just 2 points behind to 8+ and we can all look forward to another 5 years at least of frustration.

Good post mate that just about sums up my fears, and why I would prefer that the contract be held up till the summer as well.

We'r already 5 points behind (anyone wanna bet that Manutd absolutely destroy Fulham in a coupla days?) and a loss to Manutd at Oldtrafford would put us in that 8+ point gap u are talking about there...

good post and i agree with the points u make.. my thoughts exactly as well..

Let's just put all damn contract talks aside and focus on the task at hand for now...it gets ridiculous sometimes i mean surely Rafa can wait a few months to sort out his contract now can't he ?!

[bigmick]

Well as you know I'm not in the lets wait until the Summer the decide on the contract camp, I'm pretty much in the lets wait until the Summer and call it quits camp. Obviously if we win the league or get very very close, then Rafa will get his deal anyway and I'll look like a mug, but leaving that aside for a bit I think to base our decision on the next 13 matches is not the way to go.

By that, I mean that if like for instance Sabre you believe in the manager, think he is taking us forwards etc I think it would be plain stupid to bail out on him if we have a dodgy finish and end up 12 points off the top. What if we're 9 points off with one game to go and put kids out for the last match? What if we're 9 points off with one game to go and the Mancs put kids out, and we end up 2nd by six points? Really, if we win it then I'd expect some peoples conviction to change, and equally if we finished 15 points off I'd expect the same. If we're 2nd though, and anywhere between 5-12 points off I don't think a point or two each way makes an awful lot of odds to be perfectly honest.

If you believe in the manager you believe in him, if you don't you don't. I don't.

[Effes]

Here's a mad one for a squad addition - Beckham

Think about it, on loan maybe..............

[account deleted by request]

I think if I was happy with the way things had gone in the last few years, I wouldn't be questioning whether he should be given a new contract. I think if I thought we had progressed as fast and as far as I think we should have I would be more than happy to see him get a contract whether we won the league, challenge for it or what.

I just see this season as a make or break season, either he shows he can step up and sustain a challenge or his mistakes catch up with him again and we fall away badly. I think we were given an ideal chance this season, and in all honesty if we don't win it this season, I don't think we ever will under Rafa. To be fair I had given up hope of ever winning it under him last season, only for us to be presented with the opportunity of a lifetime when the mancs stumbled out of the traps, and Chelsea and Arsenal seeming to implode with internal feuds etc. 

Certainly to decide whether a manager is worth a new contract based on 13 games seems a little silly to me. I prefer to look back to 2004 when he came and ask myself would I have been happy knowing that we have made the progress we have in the 5 years since.  Unfortunately up to now I would have to say no. Too many false dawns too much money and too many mistakes for me. If we win the league (or come close)he will have proved that I was wrong, if he doesn't it won't prove me right, but I would think very carefully before I even considered offering him another contract.

Last season I thought he was "saved " by the CL run, this season I feel that he would have to win the CL to have a similar effect if we fall away in the league.