Liverpool FC Forum

[Bam]

We need another CB (for Hyypia, 2 if Agger goes) A right back, maybe even a left back if either Dossena or Insua don't improve? A creative player (and they don't come cheap) and at least one striker (and we all know they don't come cheap or with any guarantees)

I remember back in 2006 when we all thought a couple of players (striker and R winger) and we were set to win the title. Now we need at least 4 possibly more and I will be very surprised if he is given anything like the money needed to fill the gaps.

More than anything else this season has highlighted for me how much we need a creative attacking player. We have constantly struggled to break teams down, we need more craft guile and maybe someone who can beat a player. Someone like Robben or Ronaldo who can dribble into the box get defenders panicking and then you get the bonus of a few penalties as well. If you also have someone who can see and time a pass into the small gaps in defences you are onto a winner.

That to me is the REAL REASON why so many of our forwards fail to score goals. Players like Torres are good enough that they can create their own goals from next to nothing, most strikers need a supply. Pumping high balls into the box or hitting long hopeful passes is not really going to create many chances week in week out imo. 

I read every week about how many shots Liverpool have had in a game 20 sometimes 30 shots. What you don't read is how many of those shots are not the result of a clever move that opened up the defense, more of a player having so few options available that they may as well have a go from distance.

Like in 2006 I think this summer was a disaster in the transfer market. The summer of 2006 cost us dearly as we took a giant step backwards, this season it could cost us even more ......... the title.

I agree with you  mate on the "guile" playerstill lacking, I cant really remember us having a midfielder, or a wide player at that who can unlock defence's. Not since John Barnes, he was the last stand out  left midfielder we had, sorry we had McManaman during the Evans/Souness era.

But ever since Houlliers reign and on into Rafa's we havent had a creative midfielder who has been able to ail down aplace in the team.

I dont know whether this is due to the style of bothmanagers, IMO both Houllier and Rafa are very m ch 'defece is the best form of attack' managers.Both focus more in tn  art oforganisation and defendtg and that relects in the way weplay and also highlights the struggles we have infront of goal.

[Owzat]

Well how do we compare in various positions with pre-Rafa, early Rafa and now?

Goalkeepers

For me Reina is the best we've had for some time, and unlike previous incumbents he seems to have continued as a decent keeper whereas others made good starts and then became gaff prone.

I think Reina is one of the best and most reliable keepers in the Premiership, he will get less recognition than keepers at Chelsea and Man Utd who get it for feats more down to their defences, and less recognition than the likes of James, Friedel and Given who are given more credit for poor defences in front of them.

Centre Backs

Henchoz and Hyypia were solid for a while, but Carragher has become a solid CB and we have probably the best selection of CBs we've ever had. That said they do make mistakes, give away too many fouls and simply put "could do better".

Full Backs

All was going swimmingly until now. LB has been a problem since way back, a string of poor quality LBs that include Bjornebye, Dossena, Vignal, Traore, Riise and sadly that's just a few off the top of my head. RB has been less criticised, perhaps as a consequence of the LB situation, but has it ever been truly sorted? Finnan was good, Arbeloa has looked good at times, but it only ever looks temporarily sorted and it's even required Carragher to play there so can be far from a settled position.

Compared to the rest of the 'big four' I think we have big problems at full back.

Centre Midfield

On paper this looks as good as it has ever been, not surprising given Gerrard is our best CM for a very long time. Mascherano and Alonso make up a very good trio, however the back-up is lacking and the supporting cast in that trio (Mascherano and Alonso) have maybe too many weaknesses. As a combination I feel those two combined don't offer much more than maybe one top class midfielder should - in terms of winning the ball, passing, assists, scoring etc. If Alonso's tackling matched Mascherano's then would we need Mascherano? Probably not. Even then Alonso's passing can be hit and miss at times, when in form he's fantastic, other times he gives possession away too much, he seems to have got over the halfway lobbing fetish he had and generally his passing can be a bit "over-ambitious" shall we say.

We may have three CMs most of us consider world class, but other teams have a couple who do as good a job if not better. Maybe not Arsenal, but Man Utd and Chelsea seem to cope without the need for two more defensively minded CMs.

Wide Players

Riera impressed early, but looks far from the complete LM. LM has been a longstanding problem going all the way back to John Barnes in his heyday. RM is not much better resolved, Kuyt does a good job, but is not world class in that position. These are two crucial positions from which crosses and goals should come, our wide play is somewhat lacking in comparison to other teams. Maybe this isn't helped by us playing one up front, but even with two up front the output isn't as it should be.

Strikers/Forwards

Once we had Fowler and Owen, now we have Torres and, well, erm, that's it worth mentioning. We have maybe the best striker in the Premiership, but he alone can't score enough goals where other clubs have two or three quality strikig options. Our other options fall way behind Chelsea and Man Utd, probably even Arsenal and other clubs. No good having a striker in the top five Premiership strikers if the rest wouldn't make the top 20. I had a think about Keane a week or so ago, and concluded there were quite possibly 15+ strikers as good as if not better, a few names considered were :

Adebayor
Eduardo
Van Persie
Santa Cruz
Anelka
Drogba
Torres
Robinho
Berbatov
Tevez
Rooney
Zaki
Owen
Martins
Defoe

I'd not take long to decide whether or not to take most of those ahead of Keane, even based on before he came, flopped and went again. £20.3m was a joke for Keane, a handful of very top quality strikers around cost more than £19m in recent Premiership history and Keane was nowhere near their class. Some came in costing a lot less.

I'm generously leaving out some of the borderline cases like Bent who gets less credit than he deserves - he was a one man scoring effort when spudz were really struggling. I could make cases for players like Kenwyne Jones, Bellamy, Cisse and that kind of player, in my mind they are around the same ability as Keane. He falls outside the top bracket definitely, how he ranks with the rest is a matter of opinion and depends who you rate and how highly, but it was a mistake most of us saw for what it was BEFORE we paid the money for him. Maybe not a mistake signing him, definitely paying £20.3m for him (28 years old)

And I may be being harsh on Keane, but just think where that leaves Voronin, Kuyt, Babel and N'Gog.....................

[Bam]

Fecking cursor keeps jumping all over the place when I type, WFT ?
n the
Its a pain in the @rse 

[loopyliverpool]

The squad is ok but could be improved at both full back and attacking wide positions. There are too many players who are either not quite the standard required to be world beaters or are just played out of position. Cover is also needed for Fernando! This may be controversial but for the run in if all are fit I would play a 4-4-1-1 with Carra at right back and Gerrard at right midfield, Aurelio at left midfield with Issua at left back, Agger and Skertel centre backs, Mascherano and Alonso centre mids, Torres up front with Yossi playing off. This formation covers a lot of the deficiencies we have down the right side and creates a better if not perfect left side. Cant see many agreeing with this though!!

[Owzat]

What I should have added, is that Rafa has been in charge for four and a half seasons, and still the full-backs, wide players and strikers aren't good enough - the strikers because we've one quality striker and that's not enough

Key comparisons - when Rafa started vs now

Then : Dudek & Kirkland
Now : Reina & Cavlieri

Then : Carragher, Hyypia & Henchoz
Now : Carragher, Hyypia, Skrtel & Agger

Then : Finnan & Carragher
Now : Arbeloa, Degen & Carragher

Then : Traore, Riise, Warnock & Vignal
Now : Dossena, Aurelio & Insua

Then : Gerrard, Hamann, Biscan, Murphy & Diao
Now : Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Lucas, El Zhar & Plessis

Then : Cheyrou, Kewell, Smicer, Diouf & Murphy
Now : Kuyt, Riera, Benayoun, Babel & Pennant

Then : Owen, Cisse, Baros, Mellor & Pongolle
Now : Torres, Kuyt, Babel, Voronin & N'Gog

Almost certainly improved, but in terms of a team or best XI, would a side with Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan, Murphy, Hamann, Gerrard, Owen and Cisse in it be that much worse/inferior than one we can put out now? Point being Rafa has spent a lot of money, changed a lot of faces and still the side is not as far advanced as it should be.

[bigmick]

Almost certainly improved, but in terms of a team or best XI, would a side with Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan, Murphy, Hamann, Gerrard, Owen and Cisse in it be that much worse/inferior than one we can put out now? Point being Rafa has spent a lot of money, changed a lot of faces and still the side is not as far advanced as it should be.

And that, that there, is my beef too. When I decided to finally throw in the towel with Rafa a few few weeks back it was the Keane situation which tipped me over the edge. I explained at length my problem with the handling of it at the time so I won't go into it now.

Once I'd jumped ship though, and you really properly begin to assess where we are with honesty and clarity (which I hadn't done previously if I'm totally truthful, you allow yourself to be kidded along), it's shocking in many respects.

As I said earlier, if someone had told you that five years into the Rafalution we'd only have one credible striker at the club you'd have thought they were mad. Yes I know we got much of the money back for Keane (we lost somewhere between 8 million and even 1 million which I saw someone quoting the other day), but if we are as successful in finding his successor as we were in signing the original, God only knows who we'll be unveiling in the Summer and for how much. Then of course he has to settle in, be rotated around a bit, find his feet, be subbed off a few times, have a go at left wing to see if he's any good there etc etc. And so it goes on.

[account deleted by request]

What I should have added, is that Rafa has been in charge for four and a half seasons, and still the full-backs, wide players and strikers aren't good enough - the strikers because we've one quality striker and that's not enough

Key comparisons - when Rafa started vs now

GK

Then : Dudek & Kirkland
Now : Reina & Cavlieri

Then : Carragher, Hyypia & Henchoz
Now : Carragher, Hyypia, Skrtel & Agger

Then : Finnan & Carragher
Now : Arbeloa, Degen & Carragher

Then : Traore, Riise, Warnock & Vignal
Now : Dossena, Aurelio & Insua

Then : Gerrard, Hamann, Biscan, Murphy & Diao
Now : Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso, Lucas, El Zhar & Plessis

Then : Cheyrou, Kewell, Smicer, Diouf & Murphy
Now : Kuyt, Riera, Benayoun, Babel & Pennant

Then : Owen, Cisse, Baros, Mellor & Pongolle
Now : Torres, Kuyt, Babel, Voronin & N'Gog

Almost certainly improved, but in terms of a team or best XI, would a side with Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan, Murphy, Hamann, Gerrard, Owen and Cisse in it be that much worse/inferior than one we can put out now? Point being Rafa has spent a lot of money, changed a lot of faces and still the side is not as far advanced as it should be.

Good post mate, and I think you have highlighted one of the main areas of real concern to the people that are unsure if Rafa should get a new contract.

[JoeTerp]

how important is it to have a good squad? Did Rafa's Valencia teams have the best squad in La Liga?  If we had a different manager for the last 5 years, do people think we would have a better squad now? A better one than United or Chelsea?

[account deleted by request]

how important is it to have a good squad? Did Rafa's Valencia teams have the best squad in La Liga?  If we had a different manager for the last 5 years, do people think we would have a better squad now? A better one than United or Chelsea?

A good squad is very important, even MORE SO when the manager believes so strongly in rotation. I think we would definately have a better balanced squad and probably a stronger squad given how much we have spent and the players that have been available during this time.

Whether it would have been as strong as Chelsea or the mancs squads is perhaps more doubtful, but then again a team is only as strong as its weakest link, and we have certainly spent more than enough to ensure that we should have adequate cover in all positions.

[heimdall]

Looking at the comparisons then and now then I think the only real area of improvement is goalkeeper. Gerrard has become a better player as has Carra but that is only natural.

I'm not meaning to gloat and I know that I don't always explain myself well but this is the kind of stuff that has always bugged me about Rafa, then on top of that you have the bizarre substitutions, over rotation, washing dirty linen in public etc etc and it's suddenly becoming clear to people on here that Rafa is not quite the dream ticket everyone thought or still think he is.

The bottom line, yes we are doing good in the league and do have a slim chance of winning but imo we have not improved enough in 5 years, please remember that neither Houliier, Evans or Souness were particularly good managers so comparing Rafa to them is not really fair.  He should be compared to Shankley, Paisley, Daglish and in modern times Maureen, Wenger and Ferguson if we are to judge him a success or even a genius, and in that case he falls way short.

[heimdall]

Anyway, where are Rafalites today? I am waiting for GYBS to come out with the immortal "well who would you rather have then?", the answer to which is in his poll "Any other" 

[taff]

I am a Rafa supporter and I dont care who you would rather have to be honest.  Cut out the attitide and the ludicrous points scoring and we might have a sensible debate

[GYBS]

as was pointed out somewhere else on another thread . Gh last season we finished 30 points away from the winners and the season before we didnt even get into th cl . So if you think we havent improved then suggest looking at those last two seasons off gh

[account deleted by request]

Or one could argue its cost us £200million to move the club up from 4th place to ......... 4th place ?

[taff]

But we are second

Or its cost that just to maintain ourselves in the top four.  Look at the spending of other clubs trying to break in.