Liverpool FC Forum

[red_guy]

I think if I was happy with the way things had gone in the last few years, I wouldn't be questioning whether he should be given a new contract. I think if I thought we had progressed as fast and as far as I think we should have I would be more than happy to see him get a contract whether we won the league, challenge for it or what.

I just see this season as a make or break season, either he shows he can step up and sustain a challenge or his mistakes catch up with him again and we fall away badly. I think we were given an ideal chance this season, and in all honesty if we don't win it this season, I don't think we ever will under Rafa. To be fair I had given up hope of ever winning it under him last season, only for us to be presented with the opportunity of a lifetime when the mancs stumbled out of the traps, and Chelsea and Arsenal seeming to implode with internal feuds etc. 

Certainly to decide whether a manager is worth a new contract based on 13 games seems a little silly to me. I prefer to look back to 2004 when he came and ask myself would I have been happy knowing that we have made the progress we have in the 5 years since.  Unfortunately up to now I would have to say no. Too many false dawns too much money and too many mistakes for me. If we win the league (or come close)he will have proved that I was wrong, if he doesn't it won't prove me right, but I would think very carefully before I even considered offering him another contract.

Last season I thought he was "saved " by the CL run, this season I feel that he would have to win the CL to have a similar effect if we fall away in the league.

Couldn't agree more saint. Spot on.

[GYBS]

So that Spain set up is a no no then ok back to the drawing board

I answered you nanny - get those reading glasses on 

If we add silva and another striker yeah we could play like spain - Silva is normally first chpcie for spain but been injured this season so xabi started - They normally have silva and iniesta the wider of the two with xavi and senna patrolling the middle - we could have gerrard and silva all over the place with masher and xabi controlling the middle . just need another striker an silva

[Sabre]

If you believe in the manager you believe in him, if you don't you don't. I don't.

So true.

But let's make a concept clear here. Either you renew his contract now, or you forget about Benitez, and saying wait until the summer is not an option, unless of course you want to lose Benitez.

It's not an option because if you tell a manager that is wanted by many clubs "hey, we'll see in summer if we sign up you", he'll probably sign up with somebody else that knocks at his door showing enough trust on him.

And, by the looks of it Rafa won't lack clubs that think that what he has done at Liverpool is remarkable enough to want him.

So there are two options, trust the manager and give him a contract now, or not giving him now and losing it. You already have made up your mind -- which is nice -- but if we wait until summer and he wins the league, it will be too late to say "please Rafa stay, I trusted you all along besides I looked for a replacement with Klinsmann and I didn't give you a contract when I had to".

Rafa has shown love for this club, but I guess his patience is not endless, and he's in a strong enough position to set conditions. It's up to the club to decide now, but waiting until summer is an incompatible option with keeping Rafa, that is, it's the same thing as saying to get rid of him, but without saying it.

[bigmick]

If you believe in the manager you believe in him, if you don't you don't. I don't.

So true.

But let's make a concept clear here. Either you renew his contract now, or you forget about Benitez, and saying wait until the summer is not an option, unless of course you want to lose Benitez.

It's not an option because if you tell a manager that is wanted by many clubs "hey, we'll see in summer if we sign up you", he'll probably sign up with somebody else that knocks at his door showing enough trust on him.

And, by the looks of it Rafa won't lack clubs that think that what he has done at Liverpool is remarkable enough to want him.

So there are two options, trust the manager and give him a contract now, or not giving him now and losing it. You already have made up your mind -- which is nice -- but if we wait until summer and he wins the league, it will be too late to say "please Rafa stay, I trusted you all along besides I looked for a replacement with Klinsmann and I didn't give you a contract when I had to".

Rafa has shown love for this club, but I guess his patience is not endless, and he's in a strong enough position to set conditions. It's up to the club to decide now, but waiting until summer is an incompatible option with keeping Rafa, that is, it's the same thing as saying to get rid of him, but without saying it.

Well given that gun to the head option Sabes, I'd let him go. Lets face it, even the most optimistic supporter in the universe would surely accept that we have more chance of not winning the league this season than we do of winning it. We're not 7/1, 8/1 for the title for no reason. The Mancs aren't 1/5 for no reason either.

That's not to say we can't win it, we obviously have a chance but the balance of probablity leans more towards won't than will. There is still the Champions League of course, but we're in the last 16 of that so we're hardly on the cusp of success there either. FWIW I think we've got more chance of winning that, but whichever way you look at it if you were a betting man and you were having your case fiver on it, empty handed would be the most likley scenario.

If that did come to pass, we'd be three seasons without a trophy. If other clubs think that Rafa is doing a fantastic job and are going to outbid us for his services based on that, then I would say let the market decide and if they can bid enough for his services to make him forget his supposed love for the club, then it's probably best we call it a day anyhow.

[GYBS]

Well i dont think we can question Rafas love for the club and supporters - he has shown that a few times during his reign at liverpool . The only thing that would make rafa leave would be something with the owners - nothing else . By all reports it looks like the contract is sorted just needs to be signed which i think will be done around the manc game - ie when the two planks next come over . I think this summer the people that i expect will leave - who should i say hope are Dumb and Dumber and parry .

[bigmick]

It just seems to me to be an odd way of looking at it to say "well if he wins the league and we haven't got him signed up then we'll lose him, so we must sign him up now". If we were nine points clear or something I could see the logic in that, but we're not. No dout if he wins the league AND the Champions League, the whole of World football will be after his services. I agree with that, and it will cost us a lot more to keep him if indeed it's even possible, but I don't think it's worth committing to a contract simply to cover an eventuality which has very little chance of happening.

No, we're two seasons without a trophy before this one. I think given that it would be very unreasonable of the manager to demand a settlement now "just in case we win something". Lets see how we go. Lets not forget he has another year after this one anyway, a new contract should be based on success not the outside chance that we might possibly win something sometime.

[Sabre]

That's fair enough Mick, certainly I can't blame anyone for having an opinion about what's good and what's not for the club.

I wouldn't go as far as saying a head on the gun option, it's pretty much the same thing with players contract, if you wait too long you might lose him. Players and managers do have a family, and if your club doesn't give you a new contract, then it's quite natural to look at others options. Otherwise it may reach June, and you can be without job at Liverpool, and without a job elsewhere.

Anyhow, fair enough.

[GYBS]

i think no matter what real madrid will be after his services come the summer - maybe other clubs but Real Madrid will do there annual look at him and wenger .

[bigmick]

I think BTW Sabes all discussions are acedemic as I am just about certain that rafa will be given a new contract. The noises from within the club indicate as such, and I would think only a total collapse of our play or say a Gerrard/Carragher transfer request at the end of the season would be enough to pull the plug. One poster did allude via pm to the second one being a possibility, but I've seen no evidence of it myself and living 12000 miles away it's hard to claim any inside knowledge.

One thing I would be interested in. If I am right and we don't win anything, but go quite well in the league and Rafa gets his contract. How long do we give him then, say for instance in two years beyond this one we are still top four, still having a good go in the Champions League but still haven't won the league, at what point do we start to think, hang on, this ain't gonna happen. Three years without a trophy for a big club is a long time, particularly for a manager who has had the transfer funds Rafa has had. Particularly also for a manager who's equity in terms of success at that club amounts to Champions League win with largely the players he was left behind, and an FA Cup. How long?

[GYBS]

Not sure how long we give him Mick - this summer will be crucial for him - we would have to improve on whatever happens this season of that there is no doubt , and dont think anyone would argue that if he didnt improve from this season then if would be fair to look elsewhere . People have said this season is an important one for Rafa whereas i think next season is the really big one for us . If we finish second behind the mancs - which is looking the more realistic outcome then next season we really have to look at overhauling them .

[Sabre]

I'm not sure is so academic.

I think the Yanks have the attitude of many members here, that is, wait until summer, and let's see.

However they know Rafa won't lack offers, so they try to win time with nice words and see what happens. They're cúnts but they're not idiots.

Rafa in the other hand set conditions when he was in a strong position to set conditions. If in one month he has another bliiip, he won't be in that good position to set conditions.

So, if I was of the "let's wait until the summer option" I'd be quite happy of how the yanks are doing things.

How long?

3 years, no need for a 5 plan year now because our squad is in position now to be competing for the league.

That will give you a balance between the insult that would mean to extend the contract one year, and another long 5 year contract. Plus, in nowadays football contract length are not much of a problem when you actually want to sack someone. Yes, it costs money, but they're sacked anyway.

[bigmick]

So am I right in thinking, or am i reading it right that what you're saying GYBS is that next season is title or bust? Seems a bit harsh that one, even to me.

[GYBS]

im not sure about title or bust - i guess its how the season fairs this season and next - if we end up say 5 -8 points behind this season and the mancs have it won by 3 games then next year fighting them for a it a bit further and being just 3 points behind coming into last game of the season - ie giving us a real chance of winning as oppose to the slim one we have now - plus maybe a very good cl run plus maybe winning an fa cup . And it all depends on who the mancs sign this summer and who they loose as i can see them loosing fake ronaldo during the summer .

[bigmick]

I'm not sure is so academic.

I think the Yanks have the attitude of many members here, that is, wait until summer, and let's see.

However they know Rafa won't lack offers, so they try to win time with nice words and see what happens. They're cúnts but they're not idiots.

Rafa in the other hand set conditions when he was in a strong position to set conditions. If in one month he has another bliiip, he won't be in that good position to set conditions.

So, if I was of the "let's wait until the summer option" I'd be quite happy of how the yanks are doing things.

How long?

3 years, no need for a 5 plan year now because our squad is in position now to be competing for the league.

That will give you a balance between the insult that would mean to extend the contract one year, and another long 5 year contract. Plus, in nowadays football contract length are not much of a problem when you actually want to sack someone. Yes, it costs money, but they're sacked anyway.

Ah no sorry I didn't explain what I meant. I agree with you thr contract length isn't so important because you sack him and pay him off. No, what I meant was how long would you (well not you personally, but you as in each person) give him?

The reason i ask is that I think when he gets his new contract, we'll finsih in the top four in each season he's manager, and the distance between us and whoever wins the title will fluctuate based on a number of factors beyond our control. It'll be down to how close the race was and whether the eventual winners eased up, whether we ran on through beaten horses, how well teams came out of the blocks, whether or not Torres and Gerrard can stay fit etc. My guess is that we will finish somewhere between 6 and 16 points behind the winners in each and every season Rafa is the manager, and that we will always be in the first four.

If for instance this season we end up eight points back, and then next season we are six points back, and then the season after seven points back, at what point do you say it aint gonna happen?

[Sabre]

If I could choose I'd give him 2 years more. 4 years without winning anything is too much even for me.

Of course I'd give him this time not because he's a coach that come from Real Madrid, nor because I like his beard, but because in my opinion he's getting the club stronger. But if in 2 years more and that strenght isn't converted in titles, then I'd run out of patience.

Probably some player's patience will end sooner than mine BTW, and we'd see important players leaving. If a player like Alonso stays despite the saga of the summer, then he probably does for the supporters... but also because he sees he can win titles here.