Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

No player wants to see the game from the bench, that's for sure.

Is there some sort of "Global rotation watch", that is, stats that compare the rotation done by other teams?

El Mundo Deportivo has done an analisys of the primera division in the first  weeks. In those 270 minutes, only 58 players of the 20 teams were not rotated, that is, only 58 out of 220 players played the 3 games.

Among these 58, 65% of them were defences. So rotation is used here from the first team to the Sporting of Gijon, although in this case we'd be talking about their coach trying to find the starting eleven that will give them their first point.

So plenty of rotation here, I'd be curious to watch the figures for the premier league to compare the degree of rotation.

[maguskwt]

I never resurrected anything because it never died in the first place . Comments about us playing a more fixed team, comments about giving certain partnership a continuity, comments about styling, are written here and there. And this thread prevents from spreading that discussion to match threads.

Why is it discussed that much? there are several reasons, rotation is more exotic there than it is in my country. In Spain rotation becomes something to talk about if a super-star is benched, other than that it goes unnoticed. I'm not implying, just in case, that Bigmick thinks that because he reads the press, he has his own opinions, I'm saying that's why it doesn't become an "everyday debate" among most footie fans.

For instance, when the Spanish press explains how Juande Ramos is struggling, they talk about signings ups made by the board, not Juande, a young squad, and players that have "terror" to posession football according to someone inside the dressroom. None of the newspapers mentions rotation... and thus almost none of the readers would think it's an important factor.

I say almost, because I'm well aware of rotation and it's dangers, and while I consider it a valid tool, I'm still checking whether it's true that for some reason in England it doesn't work. That is, I have an open mind. I don't discard it's an important factor, I just don't think it is and I'm still checking.

If time passes and the facts keep telling that rotation teams do not succeed, I'll have to admit what's evident, but for me it's difficult to tell where lies the problems of a team when I don't even know how they train.

I do think however that the debates have been too hot when our different points of view aren't that far away. Even a player that doesn't like rotation like Carra admits you can play an spine of 8 and let the other 3 positions are fought. Even a rotationist like me wouldn't make regularly 6 changes... so we're not that far away from each other in the "degree" of rotation.

good post sabre... I'm more or less of the same mind... in England rotation is a bit more of an issue than on the continent... Ranieri was considered a 'tinker man'... which is not a very flattering title to be had... I just think that sometimes it's a bit too ridiculous to be discussing rotation for every single problem we have... disclaimer: not referring to any anti rotationist poster here... I just felt that last season it was the case of overemphasising the rotation problem and was just glad that it went away for a while...

[Sabre]

I cross post a quote of Bigmick here

See for me I guess this is where the fundamnetal difference is between a rotater by nature, and an anti. You'd probably agree Sabes that this demonstrates it far more clearly than our debate of the other day.

The idea of having two holding midfielders, and saying "well we are playing Man City this week. Now lets see, Steven Ireland likes to carry the ball a bit, and Mash is the better tackler, so Xabi you can take a rest". Then the following week you're playing Boltoin and it's "now, Kevin Nolan is good in the air, so Mash you sit this one out". This is the epitomy of styling, and as the sig says will never ever be successful in the English premier League IMHO.

For me it will work as long as what you put has the same quality and of course, you don't make 7 changes in a row.

If you  know beforehand a team will be allowing you to shoot from range, because the reports the guy analyzing oppo teams say so, wouldn't you choose Alonso?

Also, if you want to "make dissapear" an Arshavin type oppo player, wouldn't that be a better mission for Mascherano?

The initial plan was to play with Mascherano against Everton, shouldn't we expect to be competitive and win if our plan breaks and we have to play with Alonso?

As long as the rotation is quality, that is, no Torres-Voronin swaps, but yes, Alonso-Mascherano swaps,  and has a reason of being (analysis of the opposition), and it's "controlled" as in no more than 3 or 4 changes, I don't see the reason for it to be bad.

It isn't easy to hold in in top teams. Look Crouch, the moment he started to play very little, the moment he left. Can you afford a Alonso or a Mascherano making him play one out of ten games? Can you afford to win top competitions if you don't have a quality player when Mascherano is in Beijing or injured?

Answer those convincingly and you may have another convert. A delayed gazelle convert, but a convert nonetheless.

[account deleted by request]

I cross post a quote of Bigmick here

See for me I guess this is where the fundamnetal difference is between a rotater by nature, and an anti. You'd probably agree Sabes that this demonstrates it far more clearly than our debate of the other day.

The idea of having two holding midfielders, and saying "well we are playing Man City this week. Now lets see, Steven Ireland likes to carry the ball a bit, and Mash is the better tackler, so Xabi you can take a rest". Then the following week you're playing Boltoin and it's "now, Kevin Nolan is good in the air, so Mash you sit this one out". This is the epitomy of styling, and as the sig says will never ever be successful in the English premier League IMHO.

For me it will work as long as what you put has the same quality and of course, you don't make 7 changes in a row.

If you  know beforehand a team will be allowing you to shoot from range, because the reports the guy analyzing oppo teams say so, wouldn't you choose Alonso?

Also, if you want to "make dissapear" an Arshavin type oppo player, wouldn't that be a better mission for Mascherano?

The initial plan was to play with Mascherano against Everton, shouldn't we expect to be competitive and win if our plan breaks and we have to play with Alonso?

As long as the rotation is quality, that is, no Torres-Voronin swaps, but yes, Alonso-Mascherano swaps,  and has a reason of being (analysis of the opposition), and it's "controlled" as in no more than 3 or 4 changes, I don't see the reason for it to be bad.

It isn't easy to hold in in top teams. Look Crouch, the moment he started to play very little, the moment he left. Can you afford a Alonso or a Mascherano making him play one out of ten games? Can you afford to win top competitions if you don't have a quality player when Mascherano is in Beijing or injured?

Answer those convincingly and you may have another convert. A delayed gazelle convert, but a convert nonetheless.

Easy answer....... sell Alonso and buy Barry. Barry can play Left midfield most of the time, then when Masch is injured/olympics etc Barry moves to central midfield with no problems. Maybe Rafa's already thought of that one though ? 

[Sabre]

Ok you bring Barry, but is the question answered? Imagine Gerrard looks to Rafa's eyes and tells him, I want to play and I want to play in the middle. And with my best mate besides me, and I want Sammy Lee out and Stu the Red in.

And the Argie to the bench. How do you keep  Mascherano happy? if you play one of the two as a rule, won't we have the Wenger syndrome? that is, being effective at the beginning, then burst? Will Barry or Mascherano, both internationals, accept being always a sub?

P.S. The move Barry to the middle isn't a definite answer because you then have the gap in the left, can you afford to have a quality left winger as a sub always? if he does will he able to be top class after 6 games without match experience?

[account deleted by request]

Gerrard will have to be happy with his best mate in the same team, and maybe we could let Sammy work with the reserves while Stu becomes assisstant manager.

So there will be no problem of having Masch on the bench and we have Babel and Riera for left mid when Barry is needed in the center, so no problem there, while we could always move Gerrard out to the right and play Barry and Masch in the centre occasionally to keep the rotationists happy as well ..... its a win win situation mate!

[pass_da_dutchie]

Barry is nowhere near 18 million and is nowhere near as good as Xabi. Why anybody would want to replace Alonso with Barry is beyond me.

Barry ahead of Masch in the side? that's as good a joke as Everton winning the derby.

[Number 9]

TO HOT TO SWOP!!
Not really one for copying and pasting but I found this interesting!
I know he talks mainly about the PSV game with regards to little rotation,but has he finally decided that less changes are the way forward??...Its from the Echo!!

“We have the experience of last season,” he admitted “I won’t make many changes. If some players are on fire, maybe it is a good moment to keep them playing.
“Normally we try to check how the players are physically, mentally and also how the team is tactically – and then we decide whether we will change more or less players.
“But now we are in a good position so I do not think that I will change too many.”
Benitez has picked the same starting eleven for Liverpool’s last two league games against Stoke and Everton and his policy of sticking with a side that is performing well has even left the likes of Daniel Agger and Ryan Babel regularly kicking their heels on the subs bench.
The return of Javier Mascherano and Yossi Benayoun from injury adds to the Liverpool manager’s selection headache as he now has a full squad to pick from. But Benitez insists that if he does make changes it won’t be many.
He added: “When some players are playing well, but are tired, you say ‘okay maybe we will have to keep them in.’ But then you play them, they are tired and you have to change them in a game!
“You never know. If you win, you can say ‘okay fantastic decision,’ but I don’t think I will change too many players.
“When we were analysing things this week we knew we had four days between the Everton match and this one and four days between this match and the Manchester City game. Three days is not enough, four days is better.”
Agger, Babel and Mascherano are pushing hardest for a recall along with Fabio Aurelio, who is challenging Andrea Dossena for the left back spot.
Benitez added: “Every match is important, but when you are playing well and people are really happy, it’s more important to be focused.
“It’s totally different to the other times we have played them. It will be more or less the same style of football with players of pace and quality and ability, but it will be different because they have a new manager and different players.”

Last season I'd have pee'd my pants if Rafa came out with this!
Im delighted he's said it now though!

[account deleted by request]

Love this one mate 

[Sabre]

Well Barry, coming from the Echo that quotes are reliable. And reading them and denying Rafa has changed what he normally does would be denying the obvious.

I thought that as soon as he had both Mascherano and Alonso available, that is, quality rotations, he'd be rotating normally. But that quotes are very explicit about his plans.

So I have to admit it, Rafa has changed his methods in a degree, "Rafa has seen the light".

[Owzat]

Well Barry, coming from the Echo that quotes are reliable. And reading them and denying Rafa has changed what he normally does would be denying the obvious.

I thought that as soon as he had both Mascherano and Alonso available, that is, quality rotations, he'd be rotating normally. But that quotes are very explicit about his plans.

So I have to admit it, Rafa has changed his methods in a degree, "Rafa has seen the light".

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N161523081001-1148.htm

If that isn't the same article, then it's near enough. So what source more reliable than the official website, not as if they'd put it there if it weren't true

[Sabre]

No, there are not doubts about it.

Now, a question. Why has he changed his mind?

a) He truly has seen that the method won't work in England

or

b) Some important players have said enough is enough, and they have told him not to change the team so much.

If it's a) and he's successful this year, we may have Rafa for a lot of years. If it's b), he'll probably leave the club in summer regardless the success of the team.

[Espionage]

I dont think that Rafa has changed in anyway at all. I have always said that when things are not broken Rafa will not try to fix it. Thinking back to mid 2006 when we went on a 9 game winning streak we didnt make any changes to midfield or striker because everything was going fine.

Now that we seem to have a strong obvious starting 11 we dont need to rotate as much because our strongest 11 is more clear cut.

[taff]

I think that Rafa looks at players in training and decides on fitness attitude etc.  babel was used sparingly last season but he himself admitted that the premiershipwas fast and made him tired, he also spoke of how the ice bath treatment has helped the recovery rates.

I think that Benitez gets frustrated at the hustle bustle nature of the premiership and truly thinks that some form of rotation certainly helps and will continue to do so but it also looks like he is adapting more to the league.  We have also had some luck with the international break and SG injured so he had a rest rather than playing for England and this combined with a good start has helped.

Now I look forward to the why isnt Babel/Mash playing debates

[Number 9]

Love this one mate 

Courtesy of Judge that!