Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

the fact is rafa has changed the way he manages,

You still haven't produced one fact in support of your dubious claims, Peewee, and until you do you'll convince no one that Rafa changed his approach when you claim he did.

Now, you can sit back and act all smug about the fact that you used to go to games back in the day but it's pretty apparent that you learned nothing from the experience.  Why don't you stick to bragging about houses and leave the footy chat to those who understand the game, hmmm?

[Leonmc0708]

been to a game yet bob or just happy throwing stats around as usual?

Not going to a game in the last ten years is the same as never having been peewee.

[account deleted by request]

As I said previously , Rafa is no fool and has shown that for all his claims that he has players of equal ability like Torres and Kuyt or Gerrard and Sissoko he knows his best team, especially at the moment with players unavailable due to injuries. The key for me is the next 3 games when I expect rampant rotation will come to the fore once more, as players return from injury and we have a lot of games in a short period of time.

Nine of the players against Mancs didn't play midweek, so why not play them against Portsmouth, Rafa rotates for a reason not just for the sake of it.

IF we don't see such rotation over the next few games, I think it will be safe to assume that something has changed Rafa's mind, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[LFC2007]

St Mick you little fecker 

[Torres 2007]

. If you're ever going to rest Torres and/or Gerrard you'll never get a better cahnce than against the poorest team in the League,

They drew with newcastle at St. James, so not that bad.

i say play Babel up front with crouch. alonso/ mascerano or sissoko midfield.

[bigmick]

Another interesting selection today from Rafa, interesting in the sense that pretty much everyone would agree I would have thought that this was his best available team (even the Alonso fan-club would probably admit their man is not quite upto full fitness yet). I reckon that makes it four out of the last six matches where the full strength A team has taken the field. I should point out here that some people may not totally agree with the selection, some may prefer Babel up top or Gerrard on the right, but my point is that in Rafa's mind, this was his very strongest team today. Now we certainly saw some Rafa style in the Carling Cup (correctly if you ask me), and we saw it against Derby Away (once more no arguments from me on that one) but in the games where we we needed to, we have fielded the strongest side we could.

I have no doubts that were it not for injuries, we would have fielded exactly the same team today (with the exception of the totally correct exception of including Aurelio) which played against Marseilles away, Man Utd at home and Pompey at home. Is it too early to claim a slight change in direction or is it due to the injuries. I'm not sure, but needless to say I like the development.

Interestingly, Ferguson is kind of getting in the act with some Fergie style of his own which is helping to make the Premiership very interesting. After resting both Ronaldo and Rooney Away at Bolton and coming to grief, he decided to rest the excellent Anderson yesterday (despite Rooney being out) and give Fletcher a run. This allied to their recent experimentation with zonal marking at set-pieces and the inevitable teething problems that brings, led to them losing two goals from set-pieces and the match.

The zonal marking from set-pieces is a very intersting one, and I would be very curious as to whether the likes o Andy Gray have picked up on it yet in the UK. They did it against us and reasonably effectively, but against West Ham they attempted it but executed it very poorly. It was like a re-run of when we first introduced the system, with defenders mistaking the fact that they had to cover a zone and not a player with an instruction not to attack the ball. It really doesn't matter, as I said many times back then, whether you defend man to man, in zones or traffic cones, somebody on the defending team has to attack the ball and if you don't you'll concede goals to good delevery and good headers of the football.

The clueless bluenose pundit lambasted us for our zonal set-up, and laughably showed up his ignorance by jumping back onto the bandwagon even when the concession of a goal had nothing to do with the system. I wonder if anyones prodded him yet and told him that Man Utd appear to me to have modelled their set piece set up on ours, and whether he's commented on it.

[Bad Bob]

Another interesting selection today from Rafa, interesting in the sense that pretty much everyone would agree I would have thought that this was his best available team (even the Alonso fan-club would probably admit their man is not quite upto full fitness yet). I reckon that makes it four out of the last six matches where the full strength A team has taken the field. I should point out here that some people may not totally agree with the selection, some may prefer Babel up top or Gerrard on the right, but my point is that in Rafa's mind, this was his very strongest team today. Now we certainly saw some Rafa style in the Carling Cup (correctly if you ask me), and we saw it against Derby Away (once more no arguments from me on that one) but in the games where we we needed to, we have fielded the strongest side we could.

I have no doubts that were it not for injuries, we would have fielded exactly the same team today (with the exception of the totally correct exception of including Aurelio) which played against Marseilles away, Man Utd at home and Pompey at home. Is it too early to claim a slight change in direction or is it due to the injuries. I'm not sure, but needless to say I like the development.

Interestingly, Ferguson is kind of getting in the act with some Fergie style of his own which is helping to make the Premiership very interesting. After resting both Ronaldo and Rooney Away at Bolton and coming to grief, he decided to rest the excellent Anderson yesterday (despite Rooney being out) and give Fletcher a run. This allied to their recent experimentation with zonal marking at set-pieces and the inevitable teething problems that brings, led to them losing two goals from set-pieces and the match.

The zonal marking from set-pieces is a very intersting one, and I would be very curious as to whether the likes o Andy Gray have picked up on it yet in the UK. They did it against us and reasonably effectively, but against West Ham they attempted it but executed it very poorly. It was like a re-run of when we first introduced the system, with defenders mistaking the fact that they had to cover a zone and not a player with an instruction not to attack the ball. It really doesn't matter, as I said many times back then, whether you defend man to man, in zones or traffic cones, somebody on the defending team has to attack the ball and if you don't you'll concede goals to good delevery and good headers of the football.

The clueless bluenose pundit lambasted us for our zonal set-up, and laughably showed up his ignorance by jumping back onto the bandwagon even when the concession of a goal had nothing to do with the system. I wonder if anyones prodded him yet and told him that Man Utd appear to me to have modelled their set piece set up on ours, and whether he's commented on it.

I'd wondered about Man U and zonal marking yesterday, Mick.  I only saw the highlights and it was hard to tell which system they were employing but if they are, as you suggest, moving toward that system it will indeed be interesting to hear what Andy Gray and others have to say.  No doubt once they get good at it, we'll be subjected to some nonsense about United introducing this revolutionary new system to the English game! 

As for the more settled side, I think you may have a case, mate, but the injury situation may muddy the waters a bit.  Alonso, as you say, is not yet fully match fit and Mascherano is in fine fettle at the moment so no surprise that the Argentinian started today.  But, I wouldn't lay any bets on Rafa keeping Alonso on the bench for too long.  In terms of the wide positions, Kewell and Benayoun feature most consistently in the key games but what will happen once Pennant returns?  At the back, will Agger consign Sami to the subs bench once he's finally back to fitness or will Rafa look to rotate a bit once he has the Dane back in order to give Carragher a rest and keep Sami sharp?  And then there's the fullback positions.  He needed both Finnan and Arbeloa today but who will he choose for RB for our next key match?  On the left, has Aurelio now supplanted Riise?  I'd like to see that but I have a feeling that the Norwegian will still get a fair few games for us at LB in the next few weeks.  So, for me, he has picked a more settled line-up in the past month but more out of necessity than choice.

[stmichael]

Another interesting selection today from Rafa, interesting in the sense that pretty much everyone would agree I would have thought that this was his best available team (even the Alonso fan-club would probably admit their man is not quite upto full fitness yet). I reckon that makes it four out of the last six matches where the full strength A team has taken the field. I should point out here that some people may not totally agree with the selection, some may prefer Babel up top or Gerrard on the right, but my point is that in Rafa's mind, this was his very strongest team today. Now we certainly saw some Rafa style in the Carling Cup (correctly if you ask me), and we saw it against Derby Away (once more no arguments from me on that one) but in the games where we we needed to, we have fielded the strongest side we could.

I have no doubts that were it not for injuries, we would have fielded exactly the same team today (with the exception of the totally correct exception of including Aurelio) which played against Marseilles away, Man Utd at home and Pompey at home. Is it too early to claim a slight change in direction or is it due to the injuries. I'm not sure, but needless to say I like the development.

Interestingly, Ferguson is kind of getting in the act with some Fergie style of his own which is helping to make the Premiership very interesting. After resting both Ronaldo and Rooney Away at Bolton and coming to grief, he decided to rest the excellent Anderson yesterday (despite Rooney being out) and give Fletcher a run. This allied to their recent experimentation with zonal marking at set-pieces and the inevitable teething problems that brings, led to them losing two goals from set-pieces and the match.

The zonal marking from set-pieces is a very intersting one, and I would be very curious as to whether the likes o Andy Gray have picked up on it yet in the UK. They did it against us and reasonably effectively, but against West Ham they attempted it but executed it very poorly. It was like a re-run of when we first introduced the system, with defenders mistaking the fact that they had to cover a zone and not a player with an instruction not to attack the ball. It really doesn't matter, as I said many times back then, whether you defend man to man, in zones or traffic cones, somebody on the defending team has to attack the ball and if you don't you'll concede goals to good delevery and good headers of the football.

The clueless bluenose pundit lambasted us for our zonal set-up, and laughably showed up his ignorance by jumping back onto the bandwagon even when the concession of a goal had nothing to do with the system. I wonder if anyones prodded him yet and told him that Man Utd appear to me to have modelled their set piece set up on ours, and whether he's commented on it.

The thing is Bigmick, you have to realise that over here, nobody in the media dare say anything against Manchester United. Ferguson hasn't done any after match interviews with anyone from the bbc for years because some of their employees dared to criticise him.

As you said, they left Anderson and Rooney out yesterday and got beat (they claim they were both ill but i don't buy it for a second). They left Rooney and Ronaldo out against Bolton and got beat. The analysis on MOTD? The Bolton defeat was due to Bolton's "bullying tactics" and the West Ham defeat was due to "the united players looking jaded".

This rotation lark as we've said a million times only gets trotted out when we don't win. We made 5 changes today and yet still fielded possibly our strongest front 6 with a couple of enforced changes at the back. We dominated proceedings and should have won comfortably. Arsenal left their top scorer Adebayor on the bench yesterday but of course nobody will pick up on that because Everton decided to have their mandatory collapse against a big four side.

[bigmick]

I'd wondered about Man U and zonal marking yesterday, Mick.  I only saw the highlights and it was hard to tell which system they were employing but if they are, as you suggest, moving toward that system it will indeed be interesting to hear what Andy Gray and others have to say.  No doubt once they get good at it, we'll be subjected to some nonsense about United introducing this revolutionary new system to the English game! 

Well it was certainly zonal Bob, no question about it and I first noticed it against us. The thing that was curious to me was that their best headers were able to be so easily avoided. It seemed to me that Vidic was picking up the nearest post and Ferdinand was ending up back post. Now whether either or both were allowing themselves to get led Away by movement (classic mistake number one for a zonal system) or whether they were just set-up wrong I'm not sure.

The idea of the zonal system is of course that your best headers contest in the danger areas come what may. Clever coaches have over the years noticed that John Terry marks, say peter Crouch, so the big fella tracks out of the danger area dragging Terry with him and Hyppia scores. The zonal system of course negates this by asking Terry to defend central to the gola from the edge of his six yard box to the penalty spot. If Hyppia, Crouch or whoever else comes in there to head it, Terry is the bloke they're competing against.

All good of course as long as your best header doesn't feck off to cover a run somewhere else, and as long as when push comes to shove, he still attacks it when it comes into his zone. Well for Ferdinand header he met it central to the goal about eight yards out and it was pretty much a free header as he had only Darren Fletcher for comapny. None of the United line (bit oif a giveaway that a zonal system simialr to ours and not a partial zonal set-up where just the front post, or front and back posts are being "zoned off" is being employed) attacked it, they all infact retreated. Vidic was in front of Anton Ferdinand I think, and Rio was stuck out at the back post. For the second, Upson beat (I think again I only saw it on the news) Wes Brown with the central defenders int he same positions. Unless they sort it out and sharpish, they will concede many more from set-pieces defending like that.

[Leonmc0708]

Just trying to sort out the extra pages problem - sorry guys as you where . . .

[Sabre]

I'll miss this thread

[Bad Bob]

Well, we can chuck this whole discussion out the window now (at least the last couple months worth, at any rate).  How can you analyze Rafa's team selections against teams like Reading when the owners had a fecking gun to his head?  Besides, rotation would have surely worked a treat if the players had not been so distracted by the fiasco playing out behind the scenes!

( I'm joking, BTW, but I do think this whole debacle has had a significant impact on our performances for some time now.)

[Igor Zidane]

Well, we can chuck this whole discussion out the window now (at least the last couple months worth, at any rate).  How can you analyze Rafa's team selections against teams like Reading when the owners had a fecking gun to his head?  Besides, rotation would have surely worked a treat if the players had not been so distracted by the fiasco playing out behind the scenes!

( I'm joking, BTW, but I do think this whole debacle has had a significant impact on our performances for some time now.)

The rotation thread is being temporarily rotated for the Hicks and Gillette are tw@ts thread. Something we can all agree on, apart from the norwegian lad that is.

[bigmick]

( I'm joking, BTW, but I do think this whole debacle has had a significant impact on our performances for some time now.)

There's no question in my mind either Bob that the players are starting to get effected by goings on off the pitch. It's having an effect as well in terms of the inerviews they are giving IMHO.

If you read the Carra interview, (which is fantastic BTW, I love reading his thought's) I think the bit about whether or not Rafa is the man to bring the title to Anfield is revealing. Course we'll never know one way or another, but my suspicion is very definately that the players have given up on the rotation experiment as well. Now it appears that there is a distinct possibility there'll be a new manager next season, the support for the whole idea and indeed for Rafa on a personal level hasn't exactly been resounding.

Interestingly, Carra is also very keen to put to bed the notion that there are any excuses, mitigating circmatances for the poor showing in the league. I think this is very wise, inflicting another season of the mass rotation upon ourselves in the belief that it might work with a settled boardroom would be a massive mistake in my opinion.

[NANNY RED]

pmsl Miick there even doing it in Hicks other team

http://mvn.com/mlb-rangers/2008/01/23/rotation-accumulation-station/