Liverpool FC Forum

by **lio** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:40 am

As long as Rafa’s in ‘employment’ as mgr in Liverpool I guessed let’s forget the shouting for the best eleven to be fielded at every match. Mentioned ‘R’ and he seems to have left his ears in Spain.

Ok then, a crazy win-win suggestion here. Supposed we group our entire crop into 2 teams with subs – say we call them ‘Liver’ & ‘Pool’

. Over a short period certainly that the teamwork in gelling, understanding and blah blah, those basic ingredients for a winning team, should come into display. And oh yes, rafa can rotate the 2 teams as he so wishes till his heart content and why not? At the end when every medals won on the day, pass it to the Kops - they’re the 12th player, remember?

Our heavy Crop we have today:
G25 Jose Reina M14 Xabi Alonso
G30 Charles Itandje M16 Jermaine Pennant
G40 David Martin M20 Javier Mascherano
D3 Steve Finnan M21 Leiva Lucas
D4 Sami Hyypia M22 Mohamed Sissoko
D5 Daniel Agger M33 Sebastian Leto
D12 Fabio Aurelio M34 Miki Roque
D17 Alvaro Arbeloa M35 Ray Putterill
D23 Jamie Carragher S Kristian Nemeth
D39 Stephen Darby S9 Fernando Torres
D46 Jack Hobbs S10 Andriy Voronin
D48 Emiliano Insua S15 Peter Crouch
M6 John Arne Riise S18 Dirk Kuyt
M7 Harry Kewell S19 Ryan Babel
M8 Steven Gerrard S38 Craig Lindfield
M11 Yossi Benayoun S42 Nabil El Zhar

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:45 am

NANNY RED wrote:Ive just been looking at some stats regarding Rafas rotation

Team v Villa:

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

Team v Chelsea:

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Gerrard
Riise
Torres
Kuyt
Good lord the same team!! Surely not!!

Team v Sunderland:

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin
Riise dropped, Kuyt and Agger rested, Gerrard injured

Team v Derby:

Reina
Finnan
Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres
Carragher and Gerrard injured

Team v Portsmouth

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Sissoko
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin
Gerrard and Torres not risked after international duty, Kuyt and Babel rested

Team v Porto:

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres
Agger and Alonso rested

Team v Birmingham:

Reina
Arbeloa
Carragher
Hyypia
Riise
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin
Agger and Alonso injured, Torres and Finnan rested

In three of the first seven games Rafa has decided to rest two players and in one game (after the international break) he rested 4 players, two of whom had been recovering from injuries. Overall though the team rarely deviates from the following line-up: Reina, Finnan, Carragher, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Alonso, Gerrard, Babel, Kuyt, Torres

Its since the international break that Rafa has been a bit too protective over the players imo. Thats where we have seen major changes, players left out that shoulnt be and even strange substitutions.
Before the break we were flying, the international games really disrupted a team in full flow, then Rafa didnt help by changing that much he has allowed us to play ourselves out of form and confidence.

Its all about balance, knowing when he can and cant change players. There are times when he shouldnt but does anyway as he thinks the squad is strong enough to get away with it.
Clearly it isnt.
I hope we just get the 3 points on board today (however we play) a good positive win would be great but its not essential, lets just get the win keep pace with United and Arsenal, for once enjoy the international break, keep our fingers crossed that none of our key players get injured or come back slightly jaded so we can come back with a bang at Goodison.
I wouldnt mind the press portraying us as slight underdogs for that game anyway.

But to give my honest opinion, i am with Bamaga, bigmick John Bull and peewee, we need some stability, play a settled side with our key players and the results will come closley followed by confidence and better performances.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:42 am

I'm gonna abstain from this thread until after chrimbo i think. I feel as if were going round in circles abit , but that's my opinion. Good luck with your debate and keep it nice.

"ROTATIUM ET VICTORIUM" = Rotate to victory.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:54 pm

Meant to post this up earlier. To ground any discussion of rotation in actual facts, I thought I'd put up the starting 11 for each of our 13 matches to date (on left). On the right, you'll find players that were unavailable for selection due to injuries, suspensions, religious observances, etc. After each match (bar the first one), I've indicated how many "unforced" changes Rafa made to the team from the previous match and, where circumstances warranted, included the number of unforced changes from the last match in that same competition. Sorry it's a bit long but that's the nature of the beast.
------------
SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Riise
Agger Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Riise Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4

Itandje Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres
[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseilles): 0-1

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Pennant
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Arbeloa
Riise Aurelio
Gerrard Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1

Reina Kewell
Finnan Agger
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Aurelio
Riise Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal)

Reina Agger
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia
Riise
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:06 pm

50+ UNFORCED changes still seems a bit high to me and I presume that doesnt include changes of position i.e. Riise left wing/left back , Arbeloa lb/rb etc?

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:08 pm

s@int wrote:50+ UNFORCED changes still seems a bit high to me and I presume that doesnt include changes of position i.e. Riise left wing/left back , Arbeloa lb/rb etc?

You're right, mate--I haven't included a change in position as part of my assessment of "unforced" changes.

by **europian-kings** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:09 pm

peewee wrote:of course they would do anything to win the champions league mate, because they have just won the league for the last 3 seasons so the champions league will be a nice little bonus for them

AND STOP SHOUTING

only won it twice m8

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:40 pm

This is the first season Rafa has had anything near a squad he's happy with.

He deserves more than a season with it to get the result we all crave.

by **dawson99** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:48 pm

thats just what we said with houllier

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:03 pm

dawson99 wrote:thats just what we said with houllier

And with Shankly, no doubt.

Surely you can see the difference between Rafa and Houllier?

by **dawson99** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:05 pm

yeah... look im not saying rafa out. im just saying we have major probs, its not just a blip. we need an assistant coach.

and i dont like this give him time speech. we've been giving managers time for nigh on 20 years now... i think weve got a lil right to get a lil impatient.

rafa will see us through, but it wont be by himself

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 9:30 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
dawson99 wrote:thats just what we said with houllier

And with Shankly, no doubt.

Surely you can see the difference between Rafa and Houllier?

Why ?

Too many people dismiss Houllier based on the last season and a half.
I bet in the treble winning season alot of fans had a majorly different opinion.
Despite the bullsh!t most spout at times under Ged we APPEARED to be getting there. Despite what people say we scored goals we attacked we ttok the game to the opposition, but most will only see the end when yes things were dire and we needed a change.
But i do see similarities and to be honest its worrying me at the moment.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:16 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
dawson99 wrote:thats just what we said with houllier

And with Shankly, no doubt.

Surely you can see the difference between Rafa and Houllier?

Why ?

Too many people dismiss Houllier based on the last season and a half.
I bet in the treble winning season alot of fans had a majorly different opinion.
Despite the bullsh!t most spout at times under Ged we APPEARED to be getting there. Despite what people say we scored goals we attacked we ttok the game to the opposition, but most will only see the end when yes things were dire and we needed a change.
But i do see similarities and to be honest its worrying me at the moment.

So the fans stayed away from Anfield on account of the great attacking football, and not the cr*p defensive sh*te he put out week after week?

As I remember it, the vast majority of his time here was spent with 9 men behind the ball playing long-punts to Heskey and Owen, who used their pace to get the goals.

Hardly entertainment.

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:23 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
dawson99 wrote:thats just what we said with houllier

And with Shankly, no doubt.

Surely you can see the difference between Rafa and Houllier?

Why ?

Too many people dismiss Houllier based on the last season and a half.
I bet in the treble winning season alot of fans had a majorly different opinion.
Despite the bullsh!t most spout at times under Ged we APPEARED to be getting there. Despite what people say we scored goals we attacked we ttok the game to the opposition, but most will only see the end when yes things were dire and we needed a change.
But i do see similarities and to be honest its worrying me at the moment.

So the fans stayed away from Anfield on account of the great attacking football, and not the cr*p defensive sh*te he put out week after week?

As I remember it, the vast majority of his time here was spent with 9 men behind the ball playing long-punts to Heskey and Owen, who used their pace to get the goals.

Hardly entertainment.

Fair enough maybe you bought your liverpool shirt in 2002.

The season before we scored over 100 goals in all competitions, we won at Goodison, Old Trafford the olympic stadium Rome drawing in the Nou Camp.
Yes we had our limitations but Houllier knew them.
Before his heart trouble we improved every season and he also improved the professionalism at the club that had long gone.
People use Houlllier as a reason why Rafa is so good...what they forget is that they used Evans to do the same with Houllier.
Ged did a great job and then we all knew he could go no futher as he made mistakes and was too stubborn to change things, lets hope your beloved Rafa is not going to be as stubborn, because despite what us anti-rotationalists say...we all want Rafa to succeed and prove us wrong.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:35 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
dawson99 wrote:thats just what we said with houllier

And with Shankly, no doubt.

Surely you can see the difference between Rafa and Houllier?

Why ?

Too many people dismiss Houllier based on the last season and a half.
I bet in the treble winning season alot of fans had a majorly different opinion.
Despite the bullsh!t most spout at times under Ged we APPEARED to be getting there. Despite what people say we scored goals we attacked we ttok the game to the opposition, but most will only see the end when yes things were dire and we needed a change.
But i do see similarities and to be honest its worrying me at the moment.

So the fans stayed away from Anfield on account of the great attacking football, and not the cr*p defensive sh*te he put out week after week?

As I remember it, the vast majority of his time here was spent with 9 men behind the ball playing long-punts to Heskey and Owen, who used their pace to get the goals.

Hardly entertainment.

Fair enough maybe you bought your liverpool shirt in 2002.

The season before we scored over 100 goals in all competitions, we won at Goodison, Old Trafford the olympic stadium Rome drawing in the Nou Camp.
Yes we had our limitations but Houllier knew them.
Before his heart trouble we improved every season and he also improved the professionalism at the club that had long gone.
People use Houlllier as a reason why Rafa is so good...what they forget is that they used Evans to do the same with Houllier.
Ged did a great job and then we all knew he could go no futher as he made mistakes and was too stubborn to change things, lets hope your beloved Rafa is not going to be as stubborn, because despite what us anti-rotationalists say...we all want Rafa to succeed and prove us wrong.

Why do I get the feeling you're trying to get a reaction so a certain someone can complain and get me one step closer to a ban?

Anyhoo... To hear the comments on here, you'd wonder if that were actually the case.

But hey - your opinions are just that.

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