Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

right children, please stick to the subject.

Did you post this in the wrong thread or something Mike?

There was a bit of a fracas earlier in here, mate, and St. Mike did some house-keeping.

Cheers fior the explanation Bob. When I first looked at the quote from St Mike it was kind of like getting a harsh word from the ref for running down the tunnel before the game 

it's directed at Judge! because he mentioned sex club...   j/k

[Bad Bob]

right children, please stick to the subject.

Did you post this in the wrong thread or something Mike?

There was a bit of a fracas earlier in here, mate, and St. Mike did some house-keeping.

Cheers fior the explanation Bob. When I first looked at the quote from St Mike it was kind of like getting a harsh word from the ref for running down the tunnel before the game 

Not to worry, mate--I doubt you'll ever be accused of not sticking to the subject in this thread!

[lio]

  .. was it someone putting words into Rafa's mouth or really?

"We have more options up front and more power," said the Liverpool boss.

"Torres has pace and can create chances for himself. That makes a big difference.

"I am also pleased with Kuyt because of his understanding with Torres and the way he is working with the midfielders.

"Harry was another big player for us against Marseille. He is training well and playing well.

"I have a lot of confidence in all my players. I do not rotate my teams, just change them when I think it is necessary."

Link

[Judge]

I expect rampant rotation over the Christmas period

are you visiting that new sex club in liverpool s@int 

pmsl 

yeharrrrrr 

what?...

tell us about the sex club... 

post some pics if you can... 

see s@int for pics, lol

[bigmick]

It seems like a good time to bring up the old rotation thing again, what with the teams impressive win over Pompey on Saturday. What has rotation got to do with this win,
what possible relevance could the "R" word have as of now. Well....

Pompey was the third game out of the last four which have been huge games for us. The Carling Cup game, with all due respect to the fans who travelled down to Chelsea, was always going to be less important than Marseilles/Man Utd and Pompey, and in my opinion the manager correctly played a second string team down there to protect his first choice eleven. Now without researching it, I think I'm right in saying that in the three important games, Rafa has played exactly the same in all three. If there have been any "restings", "possibilities", "options" then they have been absolutely to a minimum. My point? One or two people claimed they could sense a slight changing of tack by the manager visa vis rotation a few weeks back and were lambasted by many. It now appears that in actual fact they were onto something. I'm not saying we are in a "seeing of the light period", but we are certainly in a period where we playing what we consider to be, or very close to be our best eleven in all the games that matter, it's an excellent developement.

My second point is this. Unfortunately, during the period of unchanged line-ups, we produced a performance which was somewhat lacking in verve, a bit flat and in the most important match of all, against Man Utd. Why was this? Well quite possibly (as the pro-rotationers) will tell you, because the self same team had travelled to marseilles in the Champions League for a crucial, must win tie and the legs were a bit heavy come the weekend. They maybe onto something.

Also of course, prior to the Marseilles game we played a very strange line up against Reading, and conceded defeat once we needed snookers with twenty minutes left. Why? wll obviously because we needed a result in Marseilles, which was fair enough in my book.

Here's my theory though. Had we not rotated to quite such a ridiculous extent in those heady days at the start of the season, my hunch is that we wouldn't have been beaten at Home to Marseilles ansd Away to Besiktas in the middle of our "blip". I think we might have at the very least picked up a couple of points from those two games. Then, we wouldn't have needed a fully fit, fired up and raring to go performance in france, and we could have like the "stuck in the nineties" Wenger, and Like Ferguson played a severely weakened team in our last Champions League grioup game.

Now if anybody has managed to follow this far without falling asleep, my feeling is we could have fielded this team, the one that trounced Pompey and Marseilles, against reading and I have no doubt we would have absolutely mullered them. We could have rested the team in Marseilles as we had already qualified, and we could have been much fresher against Man Utd.

Messing around earlier in the season with the team and having to play catch up has cost us, all in search of the delayed gazelle theory.

[stmichael]

Good post Bigmick.

I think today's team selection just proves that we let them off the hook with our team selection back in September when we played them at Fratton Park. That day we had a midfield Benayoun Alonso Sissoko and Pennant with Voronin and Crouch up front! Only one of those played today.... I don't mind resting the odd player but when we make wholesale changes its little wonder the team isn't as cohesive.

As you say we've played the identical eleven against Marseille, United and Porstmouth. We've battered Porstmouth and Marseille, scoring eight goals in the process, and we pretty much dominated possession against United but just lacked a cutting edge. All credit to them for their defending though.

For what it's worth, there's absolutely no point in changing the defence against Derby. In midfield, if Alonso is 100% fit then that obviously throws up a dilemma but other than that the only other question mark at the moment is the left hand side. With Crouch suspended, I'd still prefer Kuyt over Voronin although ideally I'd like to see Babel given a shot upfront. I can't see this happening from the start though. He's more likely to start on the left because he's currently more of a threat than Kewell who is still struggling to find full fitness. I guess the question is, how long do you give Kewell to try and play himself back into form?

[bigmick]

Well funnily enough against Derby I would make a change or two. If you're ever going to rest Torres and/or Gerrard you'll never get a better cahnce than against the poorest team in the League, and coming as it does in the middle of games coming thick and fast it's certainly worth consideration.

If we do change it though, I just hope we stick to a regulation formation and don't get silly with any 4-3-3's and Voronin out wide, no Lee Peltiers and ridiculousness and we should be fine.

[Redman in wales]

It seems like a good time to bring up the old rotation thing again, what with the teams impressive win over Pompey on Saturday. What has rotation got to do with this win,
what possible relevance could the "R" word have as of now. Well....

Pompey was the third game out of the last four which have been huge games for us. The Carling Cup game, with all due respect to the fans who travelled down to Chelsea, was always going to be less important than Marseilles/Man Utd and Pompey, and in my opinion the manager correctly played a second string team down there to protect his first choice eleven. Now without researching it, I think I'm right in saying that in the three important games, Rafa has played exactly the same in all three. If there have been any "restings", "possibilities", "options" then they have been absolutely to a minimum. My point? One or two people claimed they could sense a slight changing of tack by the manager visa vis rotation a few weeks back and were lambasted by many. It now appears that in actual fact they were onto something. I'm not saying we are in a "seeing of the light period", but we are certainly in a period where we playing what we consider to be, or very close to be our best eleven in all the games that matter, it's an excellent developement.

My second point is this. Unfortunately, during the period of unchanged line-ups, we produced a performance which was somewhat lacking in verve, a bit flat and in the most important match of all, against Man Utd. Why was this? Well quite possibly (as the pro-rotationers) will tell you, because the self same team had travelled to marseilles in the Champions League for a crucial, must win tie and the legs were a bit heavy come the weekend. They maybe onto something.

Also of course, prior to the Marseilles game we played a very strange line up against Reading, and conceded defeat once we needed snookers with twenty minutes left. Why? wll obviously because we needed a result in Marseilles, which was fair enough in my book.

Here's my theory though. Had we not rotated to quite such a ridiculous extent in those heady days at the start of the season, my hunch is that we wouldn't have been beaten at Home to Marseilles ansd Away to Besiktas in the middle of our "blip". I think we might have at the very least picked up a couple of points from those two games. Then, we wouldn't have needed a fully fit, fired up and raring to go performance in france, and we could have like the "stuck in the nineties" Wenger, and Like Ferguson played a severely weakened team in our last Champions League grioup game.

Now if anybody has managed to follow this far without falling asleep, my feeling is we could have fielded this team, the one that trounced Pompey and Marseilles, against reading and I have no doubt we would have absolutely mullered them. We could have rested the team in Marseilles as we had already qualified, and we could have been much fresher against Man Utd.

Messing around earlier in the season with the team and having to play catch up has cost us, all in search of the delayed gazelle theory.

A very good point made there. And one to which i would also subscribe.

There are certain matches where playing your strongest 11 is necessary, and I believe early champs league matches are in that category.

It can - as you suggest - provide you with the perfect resting opportunity that both chelsea and utd were afforded.

Playing their strongest 11 for the league match prior (ie when we played reading), a weak team in a champs league match that doesnt matter because we'd have qualified, then playing the stongest 11, fresh, against utd.

[ConnO'var]

Well funnily enough against Derby I would make a change or two. If you're ever going to rest Torres and/or Gerrard you'll never get a better cahnce than against the poorest team in the League, and coming as it does in the middle of games coming thick and fast it's certainly worth consideration.

If we do change it though, I just hope we stick to a regulation formation and don't get silly with any 4-3-3's and Voronin out wide, no Lee Peltiers and ridiculousness and we should be fine.

Your original post was a good one mate.

I tend to disagree with this one though. In principal you're right..... It would be prudent to rest up some players, but I feel that it'll be better to start with both Gerrard and Torres upfront and only rest them once the points are in the bag. Against Derby, this could be done by the start of the second half. I just don't think it's necessary to take a risk with the 3 points at Pride Park. Having to bring on the big guns to chase the game late on doesn't seem to be a good idea to me.

[JoeTerp]

My point? One or two people claimed they could sense a slight changing of tack by the manager visa vis rotation a few weeks back and were lambasted by many. It now appears that in actual fact they were onto something. I'm not saying we are in a "seeing of the light period", but we are certainly in a period where we playing what we consider to be, or very close to be our best eleven in all the games that matter, it's an excellent developement.

My second point is this. Unfortunately, during the period of unchanged line-ups, we produced a performance which was somewhat lacking in verve, a bit flat and in the most important match of all, against Man Utd. Why was this? Well quite possibly (as the pro-rotationers) will tell you, because the self same team had travelled to marseilles in the Champions League for a crucial, must win tie and the legs were a bit heavy come the weekend. They maybe onto something.

Also of course, prior to the Marseilles game we played a very strange line up against Reading, and conceded defeat once we needed snookers with twenty minutes left. Why? wll obviously because we needed a result in Marseilles, which was fair enough in my book.

Here's my theory though. Had we not rotated to quite such a ridiculous extent in those heady days at the start of the season, my hunch is that we wouldn't have been beaten at Home to Marseilles ansd Away to Besiktas in the middle of our "blip". I think we might have at the very least picked up a couple of points from those two games.

Your point does seem to have a nice logical step by step flow to it, but I think you are giving too much credit to team line-ups for the direct results of games, and to claim that we lost to Marseille and Besiktas because we fielded heavily rotated line-ups and had blip games before them is SOMEWHAT of a stretch.


and to Stmike, I think that we should stick with Kewell on the left. 1) I don't think that he has been playing THAT poorly, especially considering the state that left midfield has been in over the last 18 months or so.  He has had two nice assits to Torres, and one to Yossi today, granted Fernando had to do a lot to get those goals, but he still would not have scored them had kewell not beaten his man and fed him the ball 2) Babel is not a left winger, and I think you are right in suggesting that he play up front against Derby

[Bad Bob]

One or two people claimed they could sense a slight changing of tack by the manager visa vis rotation a few weeks back and were lambasted by many. It now appears that in actual fact they were onto something.

*Sigh*

You can, and have, made the point that Rafa's decision to name an unchanged line up in 3 of the last 4 games constitutes a new tack and fair play to you, you're right (although I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Chelsea line-up shuffle since you were making the case earlier in the season that changing things around for mid-week CL games and then restoring virtually the same team for weekend Premier League games still had a detrimental effect on team cohesion). 

But let's not pretend that certain people were calling it correctly when they suggested that Rafa had altered his approach to rotation a few weeks back (specifically, after the Bolton match) because the team selections simply do not bear that conclusion out.  FFS, the facts are there for all to see that Rafa had been rotating steadily right up until the Marseille game (see below) so "in actual fact" us lambasters still called that one right a few weeks back, regardless of how things have shaped up over the last four matches.


SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS                UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2(W)

Reina                               Kewell
Finnan                             Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1(W) 

Reina                              Kewell
Finnan                            Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1(D)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2(W)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher                            Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Arbeloa                             Aurelio
Hyypia                              Gerrard
Agger                              Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Finnan                              Aurelio
Hyypia                              Gerrard
Agger                              Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0(D)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher                             Riise
Agger                               Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1(D)

Reina                                 Kewell
Finnan                               Aurelio
Carragher                           Alonso
Hyypia                                Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0(D)

Reina                                   Kewell
Arbeloa                                Aurelio
Carragher                             Alonso
Hyypia                                 Agger
Riise                                   Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4(W)

Itandje                               Kewell
Finnan                               Alonso
Carragher                           Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Arbeloa                             Alonso
Carragher                          Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseille): 0-1(L)

Reina                                    Kewell
Finnan                                  Alonso
Carragher                              Agger
Hyypia                                 Pennant (suspended)
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2(D)

Reina                                Kewell
Finnan                              Alonso
Carragher                          Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]


INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2 (W)

Reina                         Kewell             
Finnan                       Alonso
Carragher                   Agger
Hyypia                       Arbeloa
Riise                          Aurelio
Gerrard                      Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1(L)

Reina                           Kewell
Finnan                         Agger
Carragher                     Arbeloa
Hyypia                         Aurelio
Riise                            Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal): 1-1(D)

Reina                     Agger
Finnan                   Aurelio
Carragher               Arbeloa
Hyypia                   Pennant
Riise                      Sissoko
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

17) Oct. 31 (vs. Cardiff [Carling]): 2-1(W)

Itandje                        Alonso
Arbeloa                        Agger
Carragher                     Torres
Hobbs                          Pennant
Aurelio                         Sissoko
El Zhar
Gerrard
Lucas
Leito
Babel
Crouch

[9 unforced changes from previous match]

18) Nov. 3 (@ Blackburn): 0-0(D)

Reina                 Alonso
Finnan               Agger
Carragher           Torres
Hyypia               Pennant
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Sissoko
Babel
Kuyt

[8 unforced changes from last match]
[1 unforced change from last league match]

19) Nov. 6 (vs. Besiktas): 8-0(W)

Reina                     Alonso
Arbeloa                  Agger
Carragher               Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

20) Nov. 10 (vs. Fulham):2-0(W)

Reina                          Alonso
Arbeloa                       Agger
Carragher                    Pennant
Hyypia                       
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

21) Nov. 24 (@ Newcastle): 0-3(W)
Reina                             Agger
Finnan                           Pennant
Carragher                       Alonso
Hyypia                           Benayoun
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Sissoko
Lucas
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]

22) Nov. 28 (vs. Porto): 4-1(W)
Reina                             Agger
Finnan                           Alonso
Carragher                       Pennant
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

23) Dec. 2 (vs. Bolton): 4-0(W)
Reina                            Agger
Arbeloa                         Alonso
Carragher                      Pennant
Hyypia                          Finnan
Riise                             Aurelio
Benayoun
Lucas
Gerrard
Kewell
Crouch
Torres

[3 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last league match]

24) Dec. 8 (@ Reading):3-1 (L)
Reina                           Alonso
Arbeloa                        Agger
Carragher                     Pennant
Hobbs                          Aurelio
Riise                            Finnan
Gerrard
Sissoko
Mascherano
Voronin
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from previous match]

25) Dec. 11 (@ Marseille): 0-4 (W)
Reina                             Alonso
Arbeloa                          Agger
Carragher                       Pennant
Hyypia                           Finnan
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

26) Dec. 16 (vs. Man U): 0-1 (L)
Reina                           Agger
Arbeloa                        Alonso
Carragher                     Pennant
Hyypia                         Finnan
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

27) Dec. 19 (@ Chelsea [Carling Cup]): 2-0 (L)
Itandje                         Agger
Arbeloa                        Pennant
Carragher                     Finnan
Hobbs
Aurelio
Voronin
Sissoko
Alonso
Lucas
Babel
Crouch

[7 unforced changes from last match]

28) Dec. 22 (vs. Portsmouth): 4-1 (W)
Reina                             Agger                           
Arbeloa                          Pennant
Carragher                       Finnan
Hyypia                           Crouch (susp.)
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[7 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

29) Dec. 26 (@ Derby): 1-2 (W)
Reina                                Agger
Finnan                              Pennant
Carragher                          Arbeloa
Hyypia                              Crouch (susp.)
Aurelio
Babel
Alonso
Gerrard
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]

30) Dec. 30 (@ Manchester City): 0-0 (D)
Reina                                 Agger
Finnan                               Pennant
Carragher                           Hyypia
Arbeloa                              Crouch (susp.)
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]

31) Jan. 2 (vs. Wigan): 1-1(D)
Reina                            Agger
Finnan                          Hyypia
Carragher
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Kewell
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]

[bigmick]

Bob, sigh I did admit that we're not in the middle of a "seeing the light" moment, and I did say at the time that I didn't agree with Peewee when he said that Rafa was clearly changing tack. I did and do think though that we are seeing a slightly more sensible approach, and the last few games are proof of that (please bear in mind that I am definately not attributing any improvement in form whatsoever to any change in selection policy yet, if indeed there has been any improvement).

While we were both right to question the claim of a change of tack before, I cannot think of another time in Rafa's tenure at Liverpool where he has fielded exactly the same team in three out of four games. I would be absolutely staggered if he has ever done such a thing. Therefore it seems to me only fair to point it out.

What is absolutely clear, is that at the moment we seem to be able to put out a very decent team, regardless it seems of whether there are no changes or four. Provided the obvious caveats are observed, (namely that Gerrard and Torres play), and provided we don't go down the route of a silly formation or extreme "Rafa style", we are normally OK. Unfortunately when we played Pompey the first time, and more recently when we played Reading we kind of forgot that but there you go. I still maintain that if we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot from time to time with over exuberant use of the rotation and juggling around of the formation, we would be much closer at the end of the season than it appears we actually will.

If we are though about to see a reduction in that over exuberance, and a visit to more conventional methods of team selection then I will certainly change my stance at the drop of a hat visa vis the managers position at the end of the season. His addiction to "rafa style" and the "delayed gazelle" theory are my only beef with him, and if he revises those I believe he will win the title for liverpool given financial backing.

[bigmick]

BTW Bob, I like "Lambasters" Shame it's not possible to be a "lambaster" as well as a "doomer and gloomer". Actually, perhaps it is thinking about it. I'm on the look out for someone to lambast from now on.

[Bad Bob]

While we were both right to question the claim of a change of tack before, I cannot think of another time in Rafa's tenure at Liverpool where he has fielded exactly the same team in three out of four games. I would be absolutely staggered if he has ever done such a thing. Therefore it seems to me only fair to point it out.

Mick, mate, you're absolutely right that the last 4 games have seen an approach from Rafa that I can't recall during his time here.  To name the same team in 3 of the last 4 games is unprecedented and I do think that's worth pointing out.  My lambasting was simply so certain people won't rewrite history and say that, Reading aside, Rafa's been deviating from his rotation policy for over a month now and that that has produced a better series of results.  Some people don't like to let the facts get in the way of a good myth on here and I aim to keep them honest!

[112-1077774096]

you and honesty, ah well its christmas so i suppose anything can happen.   

been to a game yet bob or just happy throwing stats around as usual?

the fact is rafa has changed the way he manages, he slipped up agaisnt reading by making more foolish changes. every season he realises he needs to play a steady line up and every season he realises too late.

he disrespects other teams with his selections, we obviously have a strongest line up so why he messes around with it when we play so called weaker teams is beyond me, reading and pompey away are great examples that we don't have the squad to do what he does. obviously our weaker players are worse than readings best players, so why give them a chance?

ah well no doubt someone can post more stats when the only stats anyone should be looking at is our results and points total, they are the be all and end all and they point to yet another disapointing season