Liverpool FC Forum

[Kharhaz]

If Wenger had made as many changes to his team as we have made to ours in the season so far, do people think Arsenal would have gained more, less or the same number of points in the Premiership?

Without a doubt no. He has picked his strongest defence and stuck with it and his key midfielders for the games that matter. If he rotated as much as rafa then no his team wouldnt be sitting pretty at the top because they dont have the depth we have. All of our players are quality and can be replaced, how many of arsenals first team can be?

Oh and Happy Birthday Sabre !

[Bad Bob]

I'll this up in response to a comment from Big Mick in the build-up to the Porto match.  Mick, you (rather despairingly) noted that Rafa has not, as recently predicted, 'seen the light' and calmed down with the rotations.  You're spot on in that and the numbers below bear that out.  In a way, we denizens of the rotation thread should all be thankful because it simplifies the season-long (if Rafa stays ) discussion we've all been having in that we don't have to weigh up what the impacts were when Rafa changed tack--because he hasn't changed tack and likely never will.  The stakes couldn't be higher but he's sticking to his guns, the stubborn sod.   So, if he's given a stay of execution from the Yanks, we will truly learn if it is possible to challenge for the title while rotating Rafa-style.  Come on G & H, don't go and upset the apple cart or we'll never get our answer.

I've put up the starting 11 for each of our 20 matches to date (on left).  On the right, you'll find players that were unavailable for selection due to injuries, suspensions, religious observances, etc.  After each match (bar the first one), I've indicated how many "unforced" changes Rafa made to the team from the previous match and, where circumstances warranted, included the number of unforced changes from the last match in that same competition.  Sorry it's a bit long but that's the nature of the beast.
------------
SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS                UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2(W)

Reina                               Kewell
Finnan                             Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1(W) 

Reina                              Kewell
Finnan                            Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1(D)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2(W)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher                            Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Arbeloa                             Aurelio
Hyypia                              Gerrard
Agger                              Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Finnan                              Aurelio
Hyypia                              Gerrard
Agger                              Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0(D)

Reina                                  Kewell
Finnan                                Aurelio
Carragher                             Riise
Agger                               Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1(D)

Reina                                 Kewell
Finnan                               Aurelio
Carragher                           Alonso
Hyypia                                Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0(D)

Reina                                   Kewell
Arbeloa                                Aurelio
Carragher                             Alonso
Hyypia                                 Agger
Riise                                   Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4(W)

Itandje                               Kewell
Finnan                               Alonso
Carragher                           Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1(W)

Reina                                Kewell
Arbeloa                             Alonso
Carragher                          Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres
[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseille): 0-1(L)

Reina                                    Kewell
Finnan                                  Alonso
Carragher                              Agger
Hyypia                                 Pennant
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2(D)

Reina                                Kewell
Finnan                              Alonso
Carragher                          Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]


INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2 (W)

Reina                         Kewell             
Finnan                       Alonso
Carragher                   Agger
Hyypia                       Arbeloa
Riise                          Aurelio
Gerrard                      Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1(L)

Reina                           Kewell
Finnan                         Agger
Carragher                     Arbeloa
Hyypia                         Aurelio
Riise                            Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal): 1-1(D)

Reina                     Agger
Finnan                   Aurelio
Carragher               Arbeloa
Hyypia                   Pennant
Riise                      Sissoko
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

17) Oct. 31 (vs. Cardiff [Carling]): 2-1(W)

Itandje                        Alonso
Arbeloa                        Agger
Carragher                     Torres
Hobbs                          Pennant
Aurelio                         Sissoko
El Zhar
Gerrard
Lucas
Leito
Babel
Crouch

[9 unforced changes from previous match]

18) Nov. 3 (@ Blackburn): 0-0(D)

Reina                 Alonso
Finnan               Agger
Carragher           Torres
Hyypia               Pennant
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Sissoko
Babel
Kuyt

[8 unforced changes from last match]
[1 unforced change from last league match]

19) Nov. 6 (vs. Besiktas): 8-0(W)

Reina                     Alonso
Arbeloa                  Agger
Carragher               Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

20) Nov. 10 (vs. Fulham):2-0(W)

Reina                          Alonso
Arbeloa                       Agger
Carragher                    Pennant
Hyypia                       
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

21) Nov. 24 (@ Newcastle): 0-3(W)
Reina                             Agger
Finnan                           Pennant
Carragher                       Alonso
Hyypia                           Benayoun
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Sissoko
Lucas
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]

22) Nov. 28 (vs. Porto): 4-1(W)
Reina                             Agger
Finnan                           Alonso
Carragher                       Pennant
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

23) Dec. 2 (vs. Bolton): 4-0(W)
Reina                            Agger
Arbeloa                         Alonso
Carragher                      Pennant
Hyypia
Riise
Benayoun
Lucas
Gerrard
Kewell
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last league match]

[bigmick]

No there's no denying it Bob, my optimism that we were at least going to try for the semblance of a settled team is proving to be unfounded. Rafa is going to live or die by the policy of rotation "Rafa-style". Contrary to what Leon amongst others have suggested, this means we are making more changes per game to the personel, the positions people play in and the tactical approach than any of the other teams. I don't think even Rafa himself would deny that this is the case.

In this latest game, we decided to change the team which won 3-0 away at Newcastle to the extent that every single one of the midfield positions had a different player filling it. Just for good measure, we also changed one of the strikers as well. Did we need to do it, did the team benefit from the changes? Of couese we'll never know, the only thing we know for certain is that we won the game comfortably in the end 4-1.

And what of the weekend? How many changes for that game? Another four? five or six maybe? Where does it all end.


I've talked for some time now about improving our processes, about direction. Whilst I applaud the managers bravery and conviction for sticking to his guns, he is making it abundantly clear that he is not prepared to modify his approach.

With this in mind, and it saddens me greatly to say this, if i am proven correct and we do not get close to challenging for the League title this season under the "Rafa style" rotation, I think we should change the manager at the end of the season. I think the team selection tonight was madnes, as I think the whole concept of mass rotation "Rafa style" is madness. Sorry but that's how I see it.

[Kharhaz]

In one way I like the way rafa rotates. As in the way all the players at his disposal are given a chance to shine, and this way get the match practice they need and get used to playing in competitive games. And this is what I meant in another thread I posted in, at least we have quality throughout. Like this season we have had injuries but players have come into the team and we are still unbeaten. Only in defence has rafa refused to rotate, as in give the younger players a chance. He likes to rotate but even he has his limits. On the other hand, especially when we get bad results, questions are raised as to why he picked the team he did. He has a foundation for the team: Reina, Carragher, Gerrard, and after tonight im pretty sure Torres will be included in that. Like it or not, we have played poorly in many games this season, thats not down to rotation, its down to low morale in the dressing room.

[JoeTerp]

Benayoun and Mascherano coming in for Momo and Lucas is interesting to count as changes. Benayoun was only counted as a change because he was unfit to play the game before, and I'm not a 100% sure about this but I think one of the main reasons Mascherano didn't play was because he had recently played in South America in midweek and like I was saying about Momo and Lucas both staying and training at melwood together for a week.

Knowing that Yossi was fit, I think it can be interpreted that Rafa's decision would have been considered more "rotational" thinking to play Lucas and momo against porto.  Macherano and Yossi were more of changing back than changes in a different direction. Certainly, under the play your best XI philosophy Yossi and Mascherno would have played.

I consider playing Babel instead of Kewell a rotational choice as well as Voronin over Kuyt (or Crouch)

[JoeTerp]

double post      

[username]

With this in mind, and it saddens me greatly to say this, if i am proven correct and we do not get close to challenging for the League title this season under the "Rafa style" rotation, I think we should change the manager at the end of the season. I think the team selection tonight was madnes, as I think the whole concept of mass rotation "Rafa style" is madness. Sorry but that's how I see it.

Of all matches I would not call this madness rotation.

You had a like for like change with mascha for momo. The amount ove heard people complain about momos first touch and wanting to play mascha, its happened, hes got in thanks to form. Then theres Babel, he had a great weekend, proving his price cost, so he gets put into the team. Then theres yossi... suprised change, yes. But, yossi is an attacking player, who got a hattrick in the last match he was fit, we need to win, who better than a man who got a hattrick the last time he played? The midfield was full of attacking players who can create goals from nothing, thats what we needed for that match.

Strikers... Vorinin for Kuyt? Personaly I think Kuyt should of been in the team. But then again, vorinin had one of his best games the previeous champions league match, and has worked well with Torres.

I do think there are times when rafa rotates a bit much, but today he removed sissoko (poor game) and lucas (young). Porto are a much better side than newcastle, and we couldnt afford any risks.

[bigmick]

Look I get tired of saying the same things mate so people must and obviously do get tired of reading them. Within reason, I really don't give a feck who he picks. FWIW I would have brought Masherano back into the team as well. Equally babel is a good player, as is Benayoun and Voronin has been showing bits and pieces of late. All this stuff though is besides the point.

The point is that in my humble opinion when you win one game 3-0, and then go into the next game with all four midfield positions having different players in them you are over-rotating. I really don't care whether he plays Benayoun, Riise, Kewell, Lucas, Masherano, Sissoko or any combination thereof. I simply think, and I am every bit as stubborn as Rafa, that in order for a bunch of players to perform to their maximum, you have to play with the semblence of a settled team.

It's the foundation of the teams confidence, as well as being the structure upon whcih the rhythm of the team is built. Now as I've said on probably hundreds of occasions, if Rafa can launch a serious title challenge while practising rotation "Rafa style" then I and all who are against his methods are wrong IMHO. He doesn't have to win it to prove me wrong, just get a sustained challenge off the ground. I've said in the past that a proper challenge is within a couple fo wins of the eventual champions. LFC pulled me up (rightly I have to admit even though it was annoying at the time    ) and said what if we're right there and then lose a crucial game with three games to go, and kind of chuck it in as we're in the Champions League final or something similar. We could end up fifteen points behind despite being right in with a shout with five games to go. It's a fair enough point, so I'll just have to give my word here and now that if our title challenge can be construed as realistic and sustained, I will eat humble pie and back Rafa to the hilt.

Unfortunately though I don't think it will come to that. That is a big shame, as I've got a huge amount of time for the manager in the way he goes about his business.

[66-1112520797]

Look I get tired of saying the same things mate so people must and obviously do get tired of reading them. Within reason, I really don't give a feck who he picks. FWIW I would have brought Masherano back into the team as well. Equally babel is a good player, as is Benayoun and Voronin has been showing bits and pieces of late. All this stuff though is besides the point.

The point is that in my humble opinion when you win one game 3-0, and then go into the next game with all four midfield positions having different players in them you are over-rotating. I really don't care whether he plays Benayoun, Riise, Kewell, Lucas, Masherano, Sissoko or any combination thereof. I simply think, and I am every bit as stubborn as Rafa, that in order for a bunch of players to perform to their maximum, you have to play with the semblence of a settled team.

It's the foundation of the teams confidence, as well as being the structure upon whcih the rhythm of the team is built. Now as I've said on probably hundreds of occasions, if Rafa can launch a serious title challenge while practising rotation "Rafa style" then I and all who are against his methods are wrong IMHO. He doesn't have to win it to prove me wrong, just get a sustained challenge off the ground. I've said in the past that a proper challenge is within a couple fo wins of the eventual champions. LFC pulled me up (rightly I have to admit even though it was annoying at the time    ) and said what if we're right there and then lose a crucial game with three games to go, and kind of chuck it in as we're in the Champions League final or something similar. We could end up fifteen points behind despite being right in with a shout with five games to go. It's a fair enough point, so I'll just have to give my word here and now that if our title challenge can be construed as realistic and sustained, I will eat humble pie and back Rafa to the hilt.

Unfortunately though I don't think it will come to that. That is a big shame, as I've got a huge amount of time for the manager in the way he goes about his business.

Its annoying when you have to keep repeating yourself hey Mick ?

In saying that tough, I bet you love it. 

[Bad Bob]

Look I get tired of saying the same things mate so people must and obviously do get tired of reading them. Within reason, I really don't give a feck who he picks. FWIW I would have brought Masherano back into the team as well. Equally babel is a good player, as is Benayoun and Voronin has been showing bits and pieces of late. All this stuff though is besides the point.

The point is that in my humble opinion when you win one game 3-0, and then go into the next game with all four midfield positions having different players in them you are over-rotating. I really don't care whether he plays Benayoun, Riise, Kewell, Lucas, Masherano, Sissoko or any combination thereof. I simply think, and I am every bit as stubborn as Rafa, that in order for a bunch of players to perform to their maximum, you have to play with the semblence of a settled team.

It's the foundation of the teams confidence, as well as being the structure upon whcih the rhythm of the team is built. Now as I've said on probably hundreds of occasions, if Rafa can launch a serious title challenge while practising rotation "Rafa style" then I and all who are against his methods are wrong IMHO. He doesn't have to win it to prove me wrong, just get a sustained challenge off the ground. I've said in the past that a proper challenge is within a couple fo wins of the eventual champions. LFC pulled me up (rightly I have to admit even though it was annoying at the time    ) and said what if we're right there and then lose a crucial game with three games to go, and kind of chuck it in as we're in the Champions League final or something similar. We could end up fifteen points behind despite being right in with a shout with five games to go. It's a fair enough point, so I'll just have to give my word here and now that if our title challenge can be construed as realistic and sustained, I will eat humble pie and back Rafa to the hilt.

Unfortunately though I don't think it will come to that. That is a big shame, as I've got a huge amount of time for the manager in the way he goes about his business.

Mick, I hear what you're saying (I, of course, read every word of your posts! ) but, for me, Rafa restored a more or less sensible midfield last night.  Gerrard on the right would have caused problems, IMO.  Either he goes walkabout and leaves that flank exposed against a team that could exploit the space, or he stays home and we lose a lot of the attacking impetus that our skipper offers (which was so vital against Newcastle).  So Gerrard and Masch had to be in the middle for me.  That leaves the flanks and I think that Babel did enough on Saturday to earn a start tonight. 

My only quibble was to leave Kewell out in favour of Benayoun.  But, for all I know, Harry's looked a bit knackered in training after the long lay off or that Rafa's policy is to now do his best to wrap him in cotton given his injury record.

As for Sunday, I'd largely stick to the team that played last night and not revisit the Newcastle experiment, no matter how well it worked on the day.  To me, the team put out at St. James' Park was the abberation, necessitated by the international matches, and that we need to stick with the much more orthodox team and formation that we played against Porto last night.

[Igor Zidane]

Look I get tired of saying the same things mate so people must and obviously do get tired of reading them. Within reason, I really don't give a feck who he picks. FWIW I would have brought Masherano back into the team as well. Equally babel is a good player, as is Benayoun and Voronin has been showing bits and pieces of late. All this stuff though is besides the point.

The point is that in my humble opinion when you win one game 3-0, and then go into the next game with all four midfield positions having different players in them you are over-rotating. I really don't care whether he plays Benayoun, Riise, Kewell, Lucas, Masherano, Sissoko or any combination thereof. I simply think, and I am every bit as stubborn as Rafa, that in order for a bunch of players to perform to their maximum, you have to play with the semblence of a settled team.

It's the foundation of the teams confidence, as well as being the structure upon whcih the rhythm of the team is built. Now as I've said on probably hundreds of occasions, if Rafa can launch a serious title challenge while practising rotation "Rafa style" then I and all who are against his methods are wrong IMHO. He doesn't have to win it to prove me wrong, just get a sustained challenge off the ground. I've said in the past that a proper challenge is within a couple fo wins of the eventual champions. LFC pulled me up (rightly I have to admit even though it was annoying at the time    ) and said what if we're right there and then lose a crucial game with three games to go, and kind of chuck it in as we're in the Champions League final or something similar. We could end up fifteen points behind despite being right in with a shout with five games to go. It's a fair enough point, so I'll just have to give my word here and now that if our title challenge can be construed as realistic and sustained, I will eat humble pie and back Rafa to the hilt.

Unfortunately though I don't think it will come to that. That is a big shame, as I've got a huge amount of time for the manager in the way he goes about his business.

Mick can i ask a serious question ?

When did you change your mind from , "Not likeing rotation or mass rotation should i say to, Not likeing rotation "Rafa style".
Is there a difference? and if so what is it ? Because and this is only my opinion ,i have detected a subtle change in your stance over the past couple of season's . from (and i won't go looking for the quotes from a couple of season's ago)"Rotation never has and never will win the league "to "Rotation RAFA STYLE never has and never will win the league".

If it's complete and utter bollox i apologise in advance , it's just a hunch i guess that i'm getting from your post's this season.

[stmichael]

Rafa restored a more or less sensible midfield last night. Gerrard on the right would have caused problems, IMO. Either he goes walkabout and leaves that flank exposed against a team that could exploit the space, or he stays home and we lose a lot of the attacking impetus that our skipper offers (which was so vital against Newcastle).  So Gerrard and Masch had to be in the middle for me. 

Agree. The game yet again proved that when Alonso is fit, Gerrard should be on the right.

There were times last night when they just ran straight through the centre of our midfield. That just wouldn't happen with Alonso there.

[terrydixon]

When is Alonso allowed to play??

I wanna see him 

[Igor Zidane]

Rafa restored a more or less sensible midfield last night. Gerrard on the right would have caused problems, IMO. Either he goes walkabout and leaves that flank exposed against a team that could exploit the space, or he stays home and we lose a lot of the attacking impetus that our skipper offers (which was so vital against Newcastle).  So Gerrard and Masch had to be in the middle for me. 

Agree. The game yet again proved that when Alonso is fit, Gerrard should be on the right.

There were times last night when they just ran straight through the centre of our midfield. That just wouldn't happen with Alonso there.

I disagree with that bob , i like the 2 holding midfielders playing together ,it gives Gerrard more or less free rain to control the attacking side of our game ,whilst the defensive side is well looked after by the holding players . Personally i'd like to see Lucas ,Xabi and gerrard as a midield 3 . Just out of curiousity.

[Bad Bob]

Rafa restored a more or less sensible midfield last night. Gerrard on the right would have caused problems, IMO. Either he goes walkabout and leaves that flank exposed against a team that could exploit the space, or he stays home and we lose a lot of the attacking impetus that our skipper offers (which was so vital against Newcastle).  So Gerrard and Masch had to be in the middle for me. 

Agree. The game yet again proved that when Alonso is fit, Gerrard should be on the right.

There were times last night when they just ran straight through the centre of our midfield. That just wouldn't happen with Alonso there.

I disagree with that bob , i like the 2 holding midfielders playing together ,it gives Gerrard more or less free rain to control the attacking side of our game ,whilst the defensive side is well looked after by the holding players . Personally i'd like to see Lucas ,Xabi and gerrard as a midield 3 . Just out of curiousity.

I hear what you are saying but I'm not sure that Lucas was ready to play on that kind of stage.  If Alonso was fit, I would have had less of a problem with him and Masch in the middle and Gerrard on the right.

However, putting Gerrard on the right exposes that flank when he pushes forward.  Look at the Newcastle game, where we had no one on the right flank for vast chunks of the game (except when Kewell moved over there for a while, which left us with no one on the left for a fair stretch of time).  Gerrard's tendency is to drive in field and get involved in the attack and that opens up gaps for opponents to exploit on the counter.  Newcastle, bless them, were too inept to exploit those Allardyce-sized gaps but a technically proficient side like Porto could have really hurt us out wide.

The alternative, of course, is to stick Gerrard out there and tell him to hug the touchline and snuff out any danger the Portuguese pose down the flank.  But, at what cost to our attacking potency?  We've been a formidable attacking team of late precisely because Gerrard's in good form and is getting forward in support of the strikers so well.  To take that part of his game away would hamstring our attack in a game that we needed to win.  No, I was much more comfortable having him line-up next to Mascherano in the centre yesterday, and leave the right flank to Benayoun, who tracks back well.